Supply Paths

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

How do you feel about the items I asterisked? They seem inconsistent with the other rules.

I assume they are correct or someone would have mentioned it.

I am not bothered with them.

But 11.11.5 says :
*******************************
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any hex controlled by:
ï that major power and its aligned minors; or
ï another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
ï a major power or minor country it is at war with.

There are some exceptions:
(...)
ï units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.
*******************************

Ok. The exception covers one of the holes I was seeing. You still need permission by the owner to move units by rail through a country. That is covered in the unit movement rules rather than the section on railway movement. I'll note that in the document.

My main purpose here was to design a data storage structure for rail networks. I'll make them simple lists of hexes (rail and road separate) for each network for each country.

When moving resources I will create a new variable that merges road and rail networks and brings in neutral country networks too. But that will need to check for stoppage points due to EZOC occupied by friendly units (note these might be projected into a country from another country). I am not sure about asking for permission of the owner. Right now I think I will set that to "permission is always granted" and give each major power the option to change the setting to either ask, or deny. Why someone would want to deny an ally the ability to transport a resource eludes me at the moment.

For tracing supply, I will merge the roads and rail networks, but not bring in the neutral country networks. I can also ignore EZOC if friendly units are present.

I think that gives you the idea of where I am heading with this stuff and why I want to make sure I have got it right before writing the code.

This is not true.

Units that do not co-operate cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.

18.2 Not co-operating

Units that don’t co-operate cannot:

1. stack in the same hex, at any time that stacking limits apply; or
2. transport each other’s units; or
3. draw supply from a source controlled by the other; or
4. reorganise each other; or
5. be committed to any combat or mission that the other unit is, or will be, involved in this step. This doesn’t apply to naval air or naval air interception missions.

Example: Commonwealth land units are in French controlled Liege. Jeremy cannot fly combat air patrol or interception with his FTRs over Liege during the strategic bombardment step because the factory is French. French aircraft could fly those missions to that hex during that step.

However, Commonwealth aircraft could fly ground support, combat air patrol, escort or interception missions to Liege during the Axis land combat step. French aircraft could not fly those missions because Commonwealth land units are involved.

Please note using rail movement doesn't require permission. Entry into a country on your side you don't co-operate does.

Rail movement has nothing to do with transport. Transport refers to Air transport and Naval transport.

You transport units, build points, and resources by sea.

You transport units and supplies by air.

You move units, build points, and resources by rail.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

It seems to be that it is quite difficult to move a unit into a rail hex in a country without first entering the country.

I also believe that the resources are not hand carried to the factories, but use locomotives and other vehicles of transportation, hence they are transported there along the rail and road networks.

On this topic I speak from experience since in the 1970's I worked for a company called Transportation and Distribution Associates which involved detailed analysis of railroad operations.

[dale1066]

With regard to rail move and permissions for units to enter countries, there was something I have noticed in CWif which seemed anomalous and as some of that code may be reused I thought I'd mention it as I was never sure if this was implemented correctly, just accepted that it was really.

I'll use Japan and Manchuria as the example. A Korean Terratorial in Korea could not land move into Manchuria but it was permissible to rail them through Manchuria into China. Is this a bug or correct implementation?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: dale1066

With regard to rail move and permissions for units to enter countries, there was something I have noticed in CWif which seemed anomalous and as some of that code may be reused I thought I'd mention it as I was never sure if this was implemented correctly, just accepted that it was really.

I'll use Japan and Manchuria as the example. A Korean Terratorial in Korea could not land move into Manchuria but it was permissible to rail them through Manchuria into China. Is this a bug or correct implementation?

This seems a correct implementation for me. In fact, I realize that we play that way the game.

Looking at the rules, the only restriction on Rail move is :
11.10
Your side must control each hex you enter.

The restriction of 11.11.5 applies to Land Movement, not rail movement.

When I quoted the rule in post #73 I was in fact forgetting that it was all about rail moves.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

(1) It seems to be that it is quite difficult to move a unit into a rail hex in a country without first entering the country.

(2) I also believe that the resources are not hand carried to the factories, but use locomotives and other vehicles of transportation, hence they are transported there along the rail and road networks.

(3) On this topic I speak from experience since in the 1970's I worked for a company called Transportation and Distribution Associates which involved detailed analysis of railroad operations.

In response to your number 1:

Please note the unit could already be in the country. Your statement says you would have to allow permission to be in the country each impulse. The RaW clearly states you only need permission when you enter the country.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Ok. The exception covers one of the holes I was seeing. You still need permission by the owner to move units by rail through a country. That is covered in the unit movement rules rather than the section on railway movement. I'll note that in the document.

18.2 Not co-operating

Foreign troop commitments

A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:

• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

A minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of an aligned minor country on the same side is destroyed unless:

• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

In response to your number 2 (please note this only deals with resources not units):

13.6.1 Resources

Transporting resources by rail

You transport a resource to a factory in the production step by railing it from its hex to a usable factory. It must move along railway lines (roads count as railways for this purpose). It can also cross a straits hexside from one railway hex to another. Each resource cannot cross more than 1 straits hexsides.

This move does not count as a rail move and the resource does not have to start its move at a station.

The move can only pass through:
• hexes you control;
• hexes in neutral minor countries; and
• hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.

Please note this only deals with units not resources.

22.4.2 Artillery (AsA option 3)

The German railway gun is a towed ART unit. However, it can only move along rail lines (by normal or rail moves) unless being transported. When moving by rail it may move as if it were an HQ.

In response to your number 3:

We are discussing the RaW for WiFFE and game mechanics.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Please note the unit could already be in the country. Your statement says you would have to allow permission to be in the country each impulse. The RaW clearly states you only need permission when you enter the country.


Excellent point.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: dale1066

With regard to rail move and permissions for units to enter countries, there was something I have noticed in CWif which seemed anomalous and as some of that code may be reused I thought I'd mention it as I was never sure if this was implemented correctly, just accepted that it was really.

I'll use Japan and Manchuria as the example. A Korean Terratorial in Korea could not land move into Manchuria but it was permissible to rail them through Manchuria into China. Is this a bug or correct implementation?

I just want to point out that this is a different issue that what I was asking about. I am happy with what I have now as an understanding of the use of rail and road networks,

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But back to your question. Yes, it seems to me to be a correct interpretation. Stopping in Manchuria would be a problem, but passing through is not.