Letters from Iwo Jima

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Not really, at least not in the western civilization. As long as we have had a moral based on Christian values, we have had the fundamental idea that each man is responsible for his own actions. This is something at the very heart of Christianity. Jesus says "choose", which means that the individual has a choise, and will be judged based on his actions and his choises.

This isn't a legal proceeding nor is anyone's soul being judged. People make judgements all the time. I can make blanket statements against anyone I want. If I want to hate baseball players, I have that right. The judgements made in this thread were against a very specific group that in no way represents a race. The statements didn't even condemn an entire country - if you read the surrounding statements - and certainly not modern Japan. The judgement was on a group that earned their judgement by their actions. They even wore uniforms to identify themselves. That group also no longer exists. Yet you're outraged to the point of making personal attacks to defend the individuals of that historical group of thugs.

That is the best example you can come up with regarding collective guilt? Why not the flood?

Not the best example, just the example I chose.

There is one example of collective guilt from the 20th century, so you need not look so far back in time. However that example of collective guilt has been horribly critizised by pretty much everyone on both legal and moral grounds. If you think/read/google for a while, then maybe you can come up with the example I have in mind. Who knows.

Wow. Then I guess there is collective guilt afterall. Just because you think it wrong doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thanks for conceding the point. That was big of you!

Of cource I would critizise anyone trying to tarnish a group of people with the collective guilt-brush. I would object to that regardless of whether the accused were japanese soldiers, catholic priests, moslem fundamentalists, rwandan militia, or whatever.

And yet you've had no trouble slinging mud at the US throughout this thread.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: mjk428
This isn't a legal proceeding nor is anyone's soul being judged. People make judgements all the time. I can make blanket statements against anyone I want. If I want to hate baseball players, I have that right. The judgements made in this thread were against a very specific group that in no way represents a race. The statements didn't even condemn an entire country - if you read the surrounding statements - and certainly not modern Japan. The judgement was on a group that earned their judgement by their actions. They even wore uniforms to identify themselves. That group also no longer exists. Yet you're outraged to the point of making personal attacks to defend the individuals of that historical group of thugs.

Heh, I say guilt is individual and never collective. I base that on legal tradition in all the major legal traditions, as well as morals, the idea is at the core of the western civilization. It is the basis of our laws, morals, philosophy. All our great thinkers througout the history of our civilization have arrived at the same point of view.

Against that we have you...a random internet poster. You claim that I am wrong, that guilt is not individual but collective. Your basis for this statement is "because I say so".

When I object to racial predjudice (All japanese were savages who smelled) you interpret that to be a defence of wrongdoings. Now, here is where you fail. You seem to fail to understand that it is possible to object to a behavior (racism by doggie) without expressing sympathy for, condoning or defending the warcrimes committed by members of the ethnical group he attacks.

And, of cource, you yourself have now jumped on the same bandwaggon. They (being "the japanese armed forces" presumably) earned his racism. Here you make the same logical fallacy, taking the actions of some, and using them to judge everyone, regardless of individual actions or inactions.

Wow. Then I guess there is collective guilt afterall. Just because you think it wrong doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thanks for conceding the point. That was big of you!

Two things can be deducted from this reply of yours
a) you did not understand what I was saying,
b) you have no idea what example I was talking about

And yet you've had no trouble slinging mud at the US throughout this thread.

I have given examples of wrongdoings committed by the US. At no point in time have I ever tried to use these examples to make broad generalizations about all americans. Again it would seem that you dont really know what this discussion is about.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Heh, I say guilt is individual and never collective. I base that on legal tradition in all the major legal traditions, as well as morals, the idea is at the core of the western civilization. It is the basis of our laws, morals, philosophy. All our great thinkers througout the history of our civilization have arrived at the same point of view.

Against that we have you...a random internet poster. You claim that I am wrong, that guilt is not individual but collective. Your basis for this statement is "because I say so".

When I object to racial predjudice (All japanese were savages who smelled) you interpret that to be a defence of wrongdoings. Now, here is where you fail. You seem to fail to understand that it is possible to object to a behavior (racism by doggie) without expressing sympathy for, condoning or defending the warcrimes committed by members of the ethnical group he attacks.

And, of cource, you yourself have now jumped on the same bandwaggon. They (being "the japanese armed forces" presumably) earned his racism. Here you make the same logical fallacy, taking the actions of some, and using them to judge everyone, regardless of individual actions or inactions.

At some point, especially if the group is small enough, it's easy to get most people to agree with a negative stereotype. For instance, all SS members. It's pretty safe to condemn that group in today's world. KKK members? Even better, not many will rise up to defend them.

And I didn't say you defended wrongdoings but you most certainly are defending a group of thugs because there may have been some good apples in the bunch.

The thing you don't seem to understand is that I can judge a group and yet still take the individuals of that group on their own merit. I can simultaneously say that the Imperial Army were a group of thugs and also say that private Hiro of the Imperial Army was a saint among men. All without being a racist.

Two things can be deducted from this reply of yours
a) you did not understand what I was saying,
b) you have no idea what example I was talking about

Only one thing can be deduced and that is: "Guilt is always individual, never collective" is a belief of yours and not a statement of fact.

I have given examples of wrongdoings committed by the US. At no point in time have I ever tried to use these examples to make broad generalizations about all americans. Again it would seem that you dont really know what this discussion is about.

So we can make all the negative comments about anything we want in blissful ignorance as long as we don't make broad generalizations against a specific PC protected group. Clear as mud.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Of cource I can make a distinction between German, US and Japanese concentration camps. Do you know the difference between a concentration camp and an extermination camp btw? Judging from your hysteria it seems unlikely.

Nice try suit

But when you put the US in the category as Germany and Japan concentration camps you bait a reply.

Again you express you total lack of a grasp on real history

1) US had Interment camps

2) Germans had a camp for every everyone

3) Japan had camps of extermination of sub human slaves that no longer could work.

You have done nothing but make accusations of racism while expressing a delusional perception at best of what is common historical knowledge for war gamers.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess?

[Doggie]

Wow...lots of text about nothing. Does it feel better now? Feel free to keep dancing around the real issues and questions and keep posting pointless drivel.

Hmmm, I believe it was you who couldn't defend his position about what swell guys the Japanese were and started dancing around slinging mud in all directions.

But I can see where you might think people who actually accomplished something, like liberating the Phillipines from mass murdering rapists in Japanese uniforms, are morally inferior to people who make their living chasing ambulances.

All without being a racist.

Well of course, proud specimen of Aryan superiority that you are. And a graduate of law school as well. Perfectly qualified to sit in judgement of a mongrel race such as Americans. It's all that pure white bread blue eyed blonde blood flowing through your veins that makes you superior to us untermensch, aint it?

At some point, especially if the group is small enough, it's easy to get most people to agree with a negative stereotype. For instance, all SS members. It's pretty safe to condemn that group in today's world. KKK members? Even better, not many will rise up to defend them.

But you will. Never met a socialist yet that didn't adore mass murdering thugs. Bet ya got a paki scarf and a poster of Yassar Arafat up in your den to show your solidarity with the poor and oppressed.

And with a pedigree too, no doubt. "What did you do during the war, Uncle Sven?" "Well, yumpin' yimmney, by gar, I helped the Nazis invade the rest of Europe but I never stooped so low as to slander the poor innocent Jpanese with racist comments about their brutality

Thrice weekly Nazi troops avoid the dangers of coastal sea transport by traveling overland through Sweden from Storlien farther north to Riksgränsen. But most galling of all are the two "Reichswehr special" trains, sealed and guarded by Swedish soldiers, packed each day with 1,000 German troops being relieved at Oslo and replaced by fresh troops from Germany. The sight of well-fed Germans hanging out of train windows, yoohooing at Swedish girls, and carrying packages of food, butter and herrings out of starving Oslo is almost too much to stomach. So much public pressure has built up that a secret session of the Riksdag last week was reported to have considered means of ending the traffic. That problem was the key to the diplomacy by which Sweden has survived so far: by judging when to make concessions—willingly to the Allies,* under pressure to the Germans.

Hey, with a proud history of sniveling and groveling such as that, it's no wonder you see yourself as a member of the master race, morally and intellectually superior to those stupid racist marines on Iwo Jima.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Nice try suit

But when you put the US in the category as Germany and Japan concentration camps you bait a reply.

Again you express you total lack of a grasp on real history

1) US had Interment camps

2) Germans had a camp for every everyone

3) Japan had camps of extermination of sub human slaves that no longer could work.

You have done nothing but make accusations of racism while expressing a delusional perception at best of what is common historical knowledge for war gamers.

The US had internment camps, yes. Where people of a certain ethnicity was put. The only two other nations who had camps where they put people because of their ethnicity was Japan and Germany. There the similarities end. But the fact that the similarities end there does not change the fact that putting people in internment camps because of their ethnicity is bad.

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Hmmm, I believe it was you who couldn't defend his position about what swell guys the Japanese were and started dancing around slinging mud in all directions.

Actually, what I have done is say that it is wrong to stereotype all japanese and say that all were stinking savage bastards who deserved to be excecuted and "strafed in lifeboats". That is not the same thing as saying that all japanese were swell guys.

The fact that you are unable to understand the difference between those two speaks volumes about you.

But I can see where you might think people who actually accomplished something, like liberating the Phillipines from mass murdering rapists in Japanese uniforms, are morally inferior to people who make their living chasing ambulances.

Actually, it is quite possible to think that its a great thing that lots of nations were liberated from opressive occupiers during the latter stages of world war two AND that it is wrong to stereotype all people of a certain ethnicity and call for their death. Those two are not mutually exclusive...no matter how much you want to paint them up to be.

Well of course, proud specimen of Aryan superiority that you are. And a graduate of law school as well. Perfectly qualified to sit in judgement of a mongrel race such as Americans. It's all that pure white bread blue eyed blonde blood flowing through your veins that makes you superior to us untermensch, aint it?

The only one who has been talking about superiority and race in this thread is you. Ever wonder why that is? And what american race? There is no such thing.

But you will. Never met a socialist yet that didn't adore mass murdering thugs. Bet ya got a paki scarf and a poster of Yassar Arafat up in your den to show your solidarity with the poor and oppressed.

Ah, but Im not a socialist. Here is where your stereotyping leads you off in the wrong direction again. You assume that because I am Swedish, and because I dont think that all members of various ethnic groups should be killed, I must be a socialist...or at least a bleeding hearts liberal. Im a conservative Christian. I dont know what you call yourself? Red-neck? Nah, that cant be, they tend to be Christians too.

Thrice weekly Nazi troops blah blah.

Hey, with a proud history of sniveling and groveling such as that, it's no wonder you see yourself as a member of the master race, morally and intellectually superior to those stupid racist marines on Iwo Jima.

Strawman. Doesnt work.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

Ok then, link up this untold story of Japanese troops showing compassion for POW’s ,or any story for that matter showing Japanese troops in WWII expressing companion towards the sub-human Allies.

[JudgeDredd]

Quote Doggie
...Bet ya got a paki scarf...

I find that offensive and you are an imbicile

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

Ok then, link up this untold story of Japanese troops showing compassion for POW’s ,or any story for that matter showing Japanese troops in WWII expressing companion towards the sub-human Allies.

I've already told you about the story of the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier injured in the minefield.

Now, you expain something to me...

Take the example of third gunners mate Asashi, 22 years old, who went down with the Yamato. Conscripted in 1942, sent to naval school in Osaka for training, and then posted to the Yamato in 1943. He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything.

If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate?

[BlindOldUmp]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Now, you expain something to me...

Take the example of third gunners mate Asashi, 22 years old, who went down with the Yamato. Conscripted in 1942, sent to naval school in Osaka for training, and then posted to the Yamato in 1943. He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything.

If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate?

Not a durn thing except obey the instructions of his Political and Military "Superiors" as most of us would. He then found himself in a situation where the peoples arrayed against the force he was a part of had no more sympathy for his people because the actions of others from his nation. Yes, that means he died (if this Asashi died - I'm not familiar with the story) for the actions of others. Not at all fair but that is the fate of any soldier in any war. The grunts & squids never start the thing they just do the bleeding. How many of us have the courage to tell the politicians to take a leap when they espouse immoral policies. Some I know. Not nearly enough however. Somehow nations find enough people who are willing to do what they are told without reference to the right or wrong of a situation. It's always "For the Good of the Nation" or "For the Good of All Mankind" even. Mankind has been this way since Adam & Eve disobeyed GOD to go their own way. We all want it our way. That, as I see it, is collective individual guilt and the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus 2000 odd years ago that "didn't happen". That act now being our only Hope in this world. Yes the Crusaders were wrong.

[morvwilson]

Flame to the left of me!
Flame to the right of me!
Flame to the front of me!
Man!
I was talking about a FICTIONAL charactor in a Hollywood movie[X(]
 
Incidentily my mother in law was born in Manila in 1933 and did not move to the states untill 1984. She still hates anything Japanese. (except cars?! go figure!)
 
 

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


Take the example of third gunners mate Asashi, 22 years old, who went down with the Yamato. Conscripted in 1942, sent to naval school in Osaka for training, and then posted to the Yamato in 1943. He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything.

If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate?

Doggie was not a fighter pilot in WWII and Asashi indeed was not “strafed in his lifeboat“.

Doggies is more the capable to defend his own views take that up with him , but his statements of the Japanese brutality are quit common among real Vets.

Your little “ Tall Tail” of the poor little Japanese boy is hardly justification to re-write the historical facts that the Japans Military force as a whole was a bunch bloodthirsty savages.

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Who the hell are we to sit and pontificate about what our fathers did in the pacific in WW2.  You can read and watch as much as you like but it still cannot allow you to come anywhere close to being able to say what was right or not.  WW2 was "Total" war and that was the point that the troops of the day understood.  NONE of us can imagine what our feelings would have been, let alone our actions if placed in the same situation. 

I have to agree with this post. We were'nt there and it's easy to pass jugdement 60 years later.
It seems to me that everyone on all sides had decided to take of the gloves and go "all the way".
None of us can imagine what it was like to be stuck on some island thousands of miles away from your home, whether it was Japan or the US, and being pissed off that the only reason you are there is because of the guy on the other side of the front.
Both sides were tired, thirsty, hungry, homesick and the only way home was to kill the enemy.
It's a lot different when you're the poor schmuck with one stripe on your sleeve.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

None of us can imagine what it was like to be stuck on some island thousands of miles away from your home, whether it was Japan or the US, and being pissed off that the only reason you are there is because of the guy on the other side of the front.

Actually some of us can [;)]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

None of us can imagine what it was like to be stuck on some island thousands of miles away from your home, whether it was Japan or the US, and being pissed off that the only reason you are there is because of the guy on the other side of the front.

Actually some of us can [;)]

Do I take that to mean, Sarge, that, deep down, you do understand how the guy on the other side of the fence felt about missing his home & family? That, despite wrong-headed leadership, high-falutin' rhetoric and questionable nationalistic motives, you are there, and you'll do whatever it takes to make it back home? That's all that matters, isn't it?

[Doggie]

The US had internment camps, yes. Where people of a certain ethnicity was put. The only two other nations who had camps where they put people because of their ethnicity was Japan and Germany.

Gee, you'd think a lawyer would know the diference between "ehtnicity" and "nationality". People from countries allied with Nazi Germany were interned in the United States. All except the Swedes. Might be some racism there.

And not all people from Japan, Germany, Italy, Austria, and other Axis powers were interned, only those living in the vincinity of key defense industries. Of course if you knew WTF you were blabbering about; you would know that. If people were interned on the basis of ethnicty, then those camps would have been full of Chinese and Koreans, wouldn't they?

I find that offensive and you are an imbicile

At least I can spell "imbecile" .[:D]

I've already told you about the story of the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier injured in the minefield.

And people living in Dachau told us they didn't know anything about any death camps. I'm sure captured Japanese soldiers fell all over themselves telling us how nice they were to their prisoners, just like Swedes claim to be "neutral".

He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything.

How do you know? Thousands of Japanese soldiers and sailors never got the chance to rape or kill anyone because Allied airmen killed them first. Good for them.

If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate?

Actually, I'd prefer the sharks got him. Thousand of Imperial Japanese marines were strafed in their lifeboats after their troop ships were sunk in sight of Guadalcanal. If ANZAC and American fighter bombers had not killed them in the water, they would have made it to land and killed hundreds of American marines and soldiers fighting for their lives on that miserable island. I imagine a bunch of idiot lawyers in Belgium would have been horrified at that, but who cares? Idiots don't win wars; sane people do.

Incidentily my mother in law was born in Manila in 1933 and did not move to the states untill 1984. She still hates anything Japanese. (except cars?! go figure!)

Well, obviously your mother in law is an ignorant racist. If she had any moral
integrity, she would have collaborated with the Japanese, just like the Swedes.

LOL where do you come up with this stuff? Source please.

Strawman. Doesnt work.

[8|] Historical fact "doesn't work"? Not only do you know nothing about the campaign against Japan, you don't even know what happened in your own country.

Actually, it is quite possible to think that its a great thing that lots of nations were liberated from opressive occupiers during the latter stages of world war two

And not a single one of them was liberated by anybody from Sweden.

The only one who has been talking about superiority and race in this thread is you. Ever wonder why that is? And what american race? There is no such thing.

Excuse me? I believe you were the one telling us about my racist relatives and aquaintainces who fought the war against Japan while your Gramma was was serving weissewurst and schnucklebunnies to the SS troops in the first class section of the Schnellzug nach Oslo. And aint all this about how Swedes are genetically superior to us racists because they let other people fight their wars for them while they sit on the sidelines and rake in the iron ore and ball bearing contracts? Hey, Swedes are the Aryan ideal, nicht wahr? You certainly seem to think so.

[Doggie]

Oh, this is priceless:
 

And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

 
No!  Twenty year old college boys have no idea what it's like to fight a brutal war against sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass murderers.  Say it aint so.[8|]

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Do I take that to mean, Sarge, that, deep down, you do understand how the guy on the other side of the fence felt about missing his home & family?
That, despite wrong-headed leadership, high-falutin' rhetoric and questionable nationalistic motives, you are there, and you'll do whatever it takes to make it back home? That's all that matters, isn't it?

Of course I do , I am sure it crosses everyones mind at some point.
But the luxuries of political debate are hardly common place, the whys and what -not’s are removed once you have boots on.
Its truly hard to express the transformations a 19yr old kid will go through. This can go both ways, you would be shocked how fine of a point you can place on what was once just a average teenager with in a years time .

Discounting training and doctrine expressed by Japans government leading up to wwii and stating it not representative of the common soldier is ludicrous , not to mention all the historical accounts that all tell the same “tall tail“., Japan set out to train a homicidal military and indeed accomplished its goals.

and you'll do whatever it takes to make it back home? That's all that matters, isn't it?

There is a whole boat load of vets that have a chest full of commendations that say otherwise

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

No!  Twenty year old college boys have no idea what it's like to fight a brutal war against sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass murderers.  Say it aint so.[8|]

And you do personally know what it's like? You're a combat veteran?