Certainly not likely, but what if...

[Gen.Hoepner]

Without the US in war against Germany, the Axis (leaving Japan out of it) would have probably held against only UK and Russia.
Consider that if Torch operation did not occur, Italy would not have been so heavily bombed and so there would have never (or probably) been an 8th sept 43. With the italians not traitors, germany would have had a lot more troops to send into the Russian front. And despite we all know how strong was Russia by the end of 1943, i don't think they would have been enough strong to defeat germany counting only on the UK as allies.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Big B, had we asked the British (or the French for that matter) before september 1939 "what front will be decisive?" I guess they would have replied "the west front, of course". The Soviet Union was a mere mystery. And don't forget Russian performance in WWI was just miserable. That's what the western democracies knew (or thought) on 1939.

True, but IF it went that way - it wouldn't take too long for Britain and France to figure out that the USSR wasn't Czarist Russia.

The real history of the USSR, the Stalinist one, was even worse. You would have to go to february or so to think the USSR had any hope, and even then considered the huge losses of '41, you would have to speculate that they were in for it the following summer. Even if people regained confidence in the USSR in that winter, many I'm sure changed their minds when they saw another blitz that summer. The purges done before the war weren't exactly inspring either.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Big B

An alternate history poser,

What if - on the evening of Dec 7th 1941, Der Fuhrer and Il Duce pulled a PR coups, and immediately declared to the world - mutual Outrage and Sympathy for the United States over Japan's attack at Pearl Harbor, ...followed by declarations of war against Japan?

Mussolini never made a habit of informing Hitler of his plans, and vice versa, and neither were real 'friends' of Japan. Both of these guys were opportunists and schemers... and though it's historically very unlikely they would have - had they had the political/PR savvy to join the USA against Japan (which would have ment nothing in the way of concrete help realistically) what would have been the outcome of Roosevelt's options for declaring war on Dec 8th if Germany and Italy immediately lined up as Co-belligerents with the USA against Japan? Absurd as it sounds, there is no real-politik reason why they couldn't have done so in the first couple days after Dec 7th, since Germany and Italy had expounded that they were on a crusade against communism - not democracy ...and consider that the USA did not declare war on Germany and Italy until about Dec 10th as I recall - leaving a small window open for the Axis to position itself as a US Ally... in name at least. Could Roosevelt politically have declared war against Germany and Italy as he did, under those conditions?

If that follows as a possibility, how long do you think the Pacific war would have lasted if the USA was totally committed against Japan with 100% of it's might, and no distraction in supplying Europe?

Your thoughts...

B

Big B...That is an interesting "what if".
The Germans did set precedent in invading Russia, while their treaty was still in force, and Hitler cannot really be accused of being overly loyal to his allies, (unless in moments of a percieved advantage).
All of us armchair generals have for years wondered what would have happened had the German industry been allowed the remaining 2 years of their production plans without "American interferance"..
Sounds like some kind of scenerio for some kinda wargame??
It's not really like Japan was bringing much to the table to directly "help" Germany or Italy in any direct way.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Big B...That is an interesting "what if".
The Germans did set precedent in invading Russia, while their treaty was still in force, and Hitler cannot really be accused of being overly loyal to his allies, (unless in moments of a percieved advantage).

This would still require Adolf to overlook US interference and actual participation against his U-Boats during 1941. Highly unlikely given his temprement. Also requires the USA to "accept" such a declaration, not to mention having Roosevelt turn it against Hitler by sailing large "American-Flagged Convoys" to Britian and daring him to "prove" his alliance" by letting them through.

All of us armchair generals have for years wondered what would have happened had the German industry been allowed the remaining 2 years of their production plans without "American interferance"..
Sounds like some kind of scenerio for some kinda wargame??

WHAT 'Production Plan"? Germany had no production plans until Speer was appointed in 1943. And that was a direct result of the War going badly. No direct American involvement might well have pushed that appointment back even farther. You need to take a good look at German production figures for the first 4 years of the War (mid-1939 to mid-1943). They are pathetic..., Hitler didn't want to cut back on the civilian economy for fear his own people would revolt

It's not really like Japan was bringing much to the table to directly "help" Germany or Italy in any direct way.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Big B

... Like I said before - of course it's unconventional thinking (and very unlikely) but not necessarily impossible.

This thread is starting to remind me of The Three Stooges "You Nazty Spy," which was released 9 months prior to Chaplin's "The Great Dictator." It's plot is also unconventional, but not necessarilly impossible.

re IMDB
"In this satire of the Nazis the stooges are paperhangers in the country of Moronica. When evil cabinet ministers overthrow the king, they decide to make Moe the new ruler as he'll be stupid enough to follow their orders. Moe becomes Dictator, Curly is a Field Marshal and Larry becomes Minister of propaganda."

Moe: Moronica must expand! We shall lend our neighbors a helping hand, we shall lend them two helping hands... and help ourselves to our neighbors!

Sound familiar?

[mdiehl]

Biggest single difference on the American Side I can see is that the "Japanese auto-victory" from the original game won't be a "barrel of BS", but a reasonable limit on what the US public will tolerate. Production will still be massive (it also provided full employment and economic growth), and troop numbers substantial (though more sensitive to casualties).

Actually, unconditional surrender and no-Japanese auto-victory available are by far the most realistic and historically supportable assumptions in any war involving Japan. But if you do decide to create a WitP scenario that makes "the Americans throw in the towel" low hanging fruit, then you need to also make some realistic modifications to Japanese logistical and ground unit naval transport capability. Any time I see an AAR that involves Japan putting a division or more ashore in India, Hawaii, Alaska, Panama, or Australia that does not involve that division starving to death in weeks and reduced to eating snakes and palm leaves just inspires laughter.

[hawker]

With US only fighting against Japan?
No US troops in Europe?
With this scenario Japan would be crushed to pieces long before 1945[;)].
And Japan can not go in offensive against Siberia because one Soviet tank division will stop anything that Japan could throw on them,USSR has far better equipment(tanks,artillery) than Japan.

In Europe everything will be the same,Soviet will eventually crush the Germans anyway with or without help from UK.
The only thing Soviet need is US help in trucks etc.
Sheer numbers of Soviet fresh troops and tanks would do a short work on wehrmacht,not to mention partisan movement to destroy German logistic route.

In no given scenario German alone cannot beat the Soviets.
In no given scenario Japan alone cannot beat the US.

WW2 became predictable 1941 when both USSR and US enters in on same side[;)]

So,any "what if" scenario should start with USSR and US on opposite side because if you put these two countries on same side and put all the world on other side they still win without much problem.

P.S. To bad they werent on same side postwar,world would be much pleasant place in that case[;)]