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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." -- Albert Einstein

I don't think we need concern ourselves about a "world without war" anytime soon. Indeed, the more relevant concern might be a "world without peace" for the indefinite future.

Well, it could be argued that a 'world without peace' is the human norm. Neolithic tribes are usually in a state of more or less constant -- but very low-level -- warfare with their neighbors. The most extreme example would be the New Guinea tribes that get together once a year and chuck spears at each other across a meadow until someone gets seriously hurt or killed. Then that's it for that year's war.

The pattern continues, through the habitual warfare of the Middle Ages and into the dynastic wars of the Nineteenth century. Frequent, but not especially intense. Even in the Napoleonic and American Civil Wars, the average soldier might see three days of serious fighting in a year of 'war.'

Then we get the modern era, with World Wars One and Two. Cataclysmic outbreaks of virtually uninterrupted violence, followed by universal agreement that war is a bad thing. Try drinking a quart of gin in one sitting. The next morning you'll have similar sentiments about alcohol.

Maybe we'll go back to a more traditional, human norm. Sort of urban gang warfare on a national level. It's worth noting, by the way, that that's one reason gang violence is so hard to stamp out. It's a perfectly normal activity for young males. See also the traditional G-8 uproar. Whatever the ideological motives of the participants, both the energy of their protest and the from it often takes obviously owe a lot to a native human impulse towards violence as a group activity.
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vahauser
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RE: SS

Post by vahauser »

Colin,
 
I'm more concerned about the extinction of the species and the implications of what Einstein said. 
 
It's one thing to talk about constant violence using sticks and stones, and quite another to talk about constant violence using weaponized anthrax and weaponized VX gas and depleted uranium and nuclear bombs.
 
And when extremists get their hands on the "fruits" of our technological progress, then what Einstein said becomes far more disconcerting.
ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Ike99
I don't think symbology is ever completely valueless. Let's face it: those SS runes just carry a lot more 'kick' than the 7th Cavalry's horse head icon -- and the reason is precisely because of the continued 'value' -- for good or ill -- of that particular symbol.

I´d ask some indians first! [:D][:D]

No really, I´m sure that´s probably true where your at if you say that. I´d say here 95% of the people wouldn´t have any idea. The Swastika sure but the ¨SS¨ symbol, Hmmmm...I´m sure more would identify that with the rock group ¨Kiss¨ than Hitlers Germany.
-----------------------------------------------------
Winston Smith prepares to throw another piece of history down the ¨memory hole¨...(ref 1984)

EU ban urged on communist symbols.

MEPs say the hammer and sickle is a reminder of a totalitarian regime. Several European Parliament members have urged the EU to match a proposed ban on Nazi signs with one on communist symbols like the hammer and sickle...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4234335.stm

Next will be the Confederate flag, then the Christain Crusader Cross, then the...., then the...., then the...on and on.

The whole impulse is nicely satirized in Ursula LeGuin's science fiction novel The Lathe of Heaven.

Briefly, a young man is troubled by his dreams. He dreams things that turn out to be true when he awakes -- but they weren't that way until he dreamed them. He goes to see a psychiatrist, who eventually realizes that this is really happening. If the guy dreams something to be so, it becomes so.

So he conceives the brilliant idea of directing the guy's dreams. First try is to make a world without racial strife. Viola -- everyone is this gray color.

Okay -- not so hot, but onward. Mankind is united.

We're united because the aliens have landed on the moon.

Doctor panics. Get the aliens off the moon!

They are off the moon. They've landed on the earth.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff
Universal peace, and a world forever without war? No thanks. Do we really want a world eternally at peace?

Um... yes? You've heard of the nuclear weapons, right?

Well -- perhaps violent protests or gang warfare could provide an adequate substitute. Your choice would depend on your socio-economic background.

In this connection, it occurs to me that the rise in the popularity and extravagance of gladitorial games in ancient Rome might have been a response to the absence of warfare in Rome's immediate environs. I mean, Rome was still often at war, but for the average Roman citizen, it was no longer a matter of going off and having a go at the Sabines every fall.

Colonial wars? Are we really in Iraq and Afghanistan for the reasons we think we are? After all, we picked two areas that are guaranteed never to be pacific. Our support for Israel also suggests a desire for an assured source of continued strife and conflict.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Colin,

I'm more concerned about the extinction of the species and the implications of what Einstein said.

It's one thing to talk about constant violence using sticks and stones, and quite another to talk about constant violence using weaponized anthrax and weaponized VX gas and depleted uranium and nuclear bombs...

Happily, the extensive use of any such weapons will lead to such a sharp decline in both the numbers and the techmological abilities of the survivors that the danger will evaporate of it's own accord. Not one of the sixty thousand survivors will be anywheres near able to make an atom bomb.

And as long as total extinction doesn't occur, what's the problem? After all, everyone dies. It's just a question of when.
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Ike99
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RE: SS

Post by Ike99 »

Moreover, people vote with their feet, and if you look at what they do, it's quite obvious that whatever we profess, war remains an intensely appealing activity for at least the male half of the species.

I´m not so sure males are attracted to the war side of things with the military. I think what attracts them is the sence of comradery and sence of purpose. Perhaps even the discipline side of it too.

When it comes to the actual killing other people side of things I´m not so sure their is an attraction to that. It is one thing to get angry in a fit of rage and kill someone. Quite another to go about and kill strangers in a methodical manner as in war.

IIRC there was a study of WW2 soldiers that showed most soldiers didn´t fire their weapons. That there was an aversion to actually shooting at other people. So the drill targets were changed to resemble a human being after the war.
¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

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golden delicious
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

I'm more concerned about the extinction of the species

Human beings are remarkbly adaptable. You might be able to kill 99.999% of us- but that still leaves 60,000. A good, viable population- and with good rates of growth we'd be back where we are in a thousand years.

Obviously, the intervening period would be pretty unpleasant, but I don't think we're capable of exterminating ourselves.
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golden delicious
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I´m not so sure males are attracted to the war side of things with the military. I think what attracts them is the sence of comradery and sence of purpose. Perhaps even the discipline side of it too.

We do start to feel queezy when it comes to pulling the trigger- but almost every male when looking at a weapon will feel a certain sense of excitement and an urge to take it down and have a go. Killing? Maybe not. But being there where the action is? Where do I sign?
IIRC there was a study of WW2 soldiers that showed most soldiers didn´t fire their weapons.

That's an exaggeration. About one in five didn't fire. One in five did exactly what they were supposed to. The other three fell somewhere in between.

I would say this has more to do with not being able to act in an organised manner while under fire than deliberate avoiding killing.
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vahauser
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RE: SS

Post by vahauser »

LOL.  You are funny.  "A good viable population of 60,000." 
 
Perhaps.  But not so good for the 6,499,940,000 who got rubbed out.
 
And all of the former "garden spots" on the planet will be radioactive wastelands.
 
And for the 60,000 survivors, they might be so scattered all over the world that a secure genetic future for the species would be quite problematic indeed (to say nothing of radiological mutations).  I'll put my money on the rats and cockroaches and flies.
 
This is not the sort of future that I dream about for my children and grandchildren.
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golden delicious
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

And for the 60,000 survivors, they might be so scattered all over the world that a secure genetic future for the species would be quite problematic indeed (to say nothing of radiological mutations).  I'll put my money on the rats and cockroaches and flies.

I'd say we'll survive- but it certainly won't be pretty. In a nuclear situation, you'll have island populations which are so remote as to have not been affected by blast at all and which will avoid the immediate fallout (and long-term fallout is not as severe a problem as widely held). Add a hundred here and there in government shelters (though these will be unbalanced populations as they are intended to protect the leadership rather than carry on the species), and countless individuals and families with less well-prepared shelters.
This is not the sort of future that I dream about for my children and grandchildren.

Fair enough. But I think surviving as a species is better than nothing.
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RE: SS

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: vahauser

I'm more concerned about the extinction of the species

Human beings are remarkbly adaptable. You might be able to kill 99.999% of us- but that still leaves 60,000. A good, viable population- and with good rates of growth we'd be back where we are in a thousand years.

Obviously, the intervening period would be pretty unpleasant, but I don't think we're capable of exterminating ourselves.


At the height of the Cold War, when nuclear stockpiles were far larger than today, a full-scale exchange would not have resulted in the death of 99.999% of the population. Far from it - vast tracts of land with ample populations would have remained relatively unaffected. IMO most people greatly overestimate the effects of nuclear weapons, especially on a global scale.
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vahauser
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RE: SS

Post by vahauser »

sstevens06,
 
I hope we never find out if you are correct or not.
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RE: SS

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

sstevens06,

I hope we never find out if you are correct or not.


That goes without saying.
ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

LOL. You are funny. "A good viable population of 60,000."

Perhaps. But not so good for the 6,499,940,000 who got rubbed out.

And all of the former "garden spots" on the planet will be radioactive wastelands.

Why are the garden spots in particular going to be targeted? Whowver takes a shot at the US is going to be targeting Manhattan -- not Yellowstone. On the whole, the experience should improve the look of things. All those cluttered inner cities and gritty industrial tracts -- gone.

And for the 60,000 survivors, they might be so scattered all over the world that a secure genetic future for the species would be quite problematic indeed (to say nothing of radiological mutations). I'll put my money on the rats and cockroaches and flies.

Rats. flies, and cockroaches all depend on people to a large extent. Go ahead and count how many you find in a tract of wilderness. Their numbers are going to plunge as well.

60,000 should be ample. For example, if there were 60,000 Right Whales the species would be in fine shape -- probably straining its environment, if anything. Prior to man's discovery of the various technological jee-jaws that put him at the top of the food chain, human numbers weren't much greater than 60,000. Animal populations often go through similar swings. Moreover, with all the technological remnants lying aobut, our numbers should rebound all too quickly.

This is not the sort of future that I dream about for my children and grandchildren.

As opposed to ten billion souls in a regimented society swimming in a goo of industrial and agricultural effluent heated by global warming? Or, your descendant could be like Daniel Boone, carving his own future on a virtually empty planet...
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I´m not so sure males are attracted to the war side of things with the military. I think what attracts them is the sence of comradery and sence of purpose. Perhaps even the discipline side of it too.

We do start to feel queezy when it comes to pulling the trigger- but almost every male when looking at a weapon will feel a certain sense of excitement and an urge to take it down and have a go. Killing? Maybe not. But being there where the action is? Where do I sign?
IIRC there was a study of WW2 soldiers that showed most soldiers didn´t fire their weapons.

That's an exaggeration. About one in five didn't fire. One in five did exactly what they were supposed to. The other three fell somewhere in between.

I would say this has more to do with not being able to act in an organised manner while under fire than deliberate avoiding killing.

Most people are conditioned against actually killing each other. It's why such astonishing quantities of ammunition get fired off in the inner city -- and so few actual fatalities result.

It's also why certain groups which are less thoroughly conditioned -- career criminals, nomadic herders -- make remarkably effective soldiers.

However, none of this demonstrates that the activity isn't appealing. After all, all that ammunition does get fired off. Repeatedly -- the War of 1812, the American Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War One -- war's outbreak is greeted with widespread excitement and rejoicing. We like it.

As I say, it's an oversimplification to say 'war is bad.' Waging war is a natural human activity. One might as well say building houses is bad.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: vahauser

I'm more concerned about the extinction of the species

Human beings are remarkbly adaptable. You might be able to kill 99.999% of us- but that still leaves 60,000. A good, viable population- and with good rates of growth we'd be back where we are in a thousand years.

Obviously, the intervening period would be pretty unpleasant, but I don't think we're capable of exterminating ourselves.


At the height of the Cold War, when nuclear stockpiles were far larger than today, a full-scale exchange would not have resulted in the death of 99.999% of the population. Far from it - vast tracts of land with ample populations would have remained relatively unaffected. IMO most people greatly overestimate the effects of nuclear weapons, especially on a global scale.

Yeah. It's worth noting that prior to World War Two, estimates for the civilian casualties to be expected from a single air raid on London ranged from a quarter of a million to a full million. The Luftwaffe might have bagged a thousand on its best night, and fatalities for the whole war totaled 40,000.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

Image


or...

Image


And nuclear war would be bad?
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desert
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

When I read these posts, I think of Thomas Hobbes, Captain Trips, and Lord of the Flies.
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RE: SS

Post by Foggy »

Interesting - ever thought about nukes are used? Ground bursts for
elimination of targets - airbursts to maximize damage - maybe Cobalt 60 enhanced weapons to kill every possible human in an area forever
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desert
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

Have fun getting 500 tons of cobalt-60 then?
 
It's possible to have a 10,000 megaton nuke in this game, FYI.
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