"Kharkov and Leinigrad too if hte Germans get to them early - both were evacuated, but they might not have ben quick enough in an alternate history."
Okay, just create a unit for each city, but put the unit behind the Urals. The unit is 0/1000 t34s (well really it would be 0/whatever tank production for those factories was). House rules state that if Kharkov or Leningrad is captured before the date their factories where evacuated then these units cannot be disbanded. If the Either city holds out long enough, then the corresponding unit can be disbanded. If the unit is not disbanded, when you put t34s into your pool these units out in the middle of nowhere will eat up a certain amount equal to the amount of lost tank production.
Now we are up to 25 units.
"4 months is terribly granular - tanks didn't arrive in big batches every 4 months - they arrived more or less as they were built. with 4-monthly production you'll get all units getting a rush of replacements 3 times a year and then slowly weakening as they lose equipment with less replacement...that's not how it happened (at least AFAIK)"
First of all you still get a steady stream of tank units, so only a portion of your reinforcements are affected.
2nd, as I understand it reinforcements are given to units at a rate of 2% of your on hand stockpile. So for instance, in 1942 total tank production was 24000, so, getting a batch every third of a year you would get a batch of 8000. First wave of replacements is 2% of this so 160. Next turn you get 2% of the remainder which would be 156. Next turn is 154. So it is not all at once.
Also maybe tanks don't arrive all out once, but what about tankers? Maybe tank school lasts 4 months, all the new tanks get new crews, then the next class starts? (Okay okay so the Russians didn't actually train their tankers, its just a thought)
You could seperate the arrival of tank units. So for instance in 1942 you have 3 from siberia 3 from stalingrad and 2 from Gorky. So that is 8 to spread over 12 months, so new tanks every month and a half.
Finally Russian 1942 tank production is 24000, are players really going to eat through 230 tanks a turn?
"You're right about Siberia being able to be represented by a single production point/unit, but none of the cities I mentioned were actually in Siberia, and as I said there were factories producing all sorts of things all across the map - there might not have been any tank factories in Moscow, but there were certainly aircraft factories, and they have the same kind of characteristics - they can be captured or evacuated."
Well you just need to model the cities that could be captured before industry could be evacuated. If you lose Moscow you already lose all the units that appear in Moscow hexes. Any aircraft industry in Moscow could presumbably be evacuated, and you already get a 20% production hit for losing moscow, so it is not like there is no penalty. I would say just assume Moscow production would be moved to Gorky in event of capture, and thus just add Moscow figures to the units already being made in Gorky.
As to other cities, we have already modelled all tank production with 25 units. If it would not take another 25 to model all aircraft production, since Urals(I don't know why I keep typing Siberia, gulags were there, not many factories) units can include both planes and tanks (and guns and whatever)
To model a city that produced aircraft and could be captured early you need just one unit like the ones I mentioned for Kharkov and Leningrad (an empty unit with alot of space that sucks in replacements equal to the lost production).
To model a city that lasted a little longer, like Stalingrad was never captured like Gorky, you only need maybe a half dozen units.
FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Moderators: ralphtricky, JAMiAM
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
While I was working on mod 7, I discussed a lot of the above with SMK.
1. To use the EEV like the DNO scenario I would need a lot of events, have about 400 left in current scenario. I think DNO uses most of its events to do this and the factories.
2. To use the units to disband like in DNO I figured I needed around 120 soviet units and that was doing units monthly. I was going to use counters for inf replacements like DNO but couldn't find enough empty slots with the counter limit. (don't have my notes any more seems the dog ate them!!)
3. I wanted to give the soviet player the option of moving the factories, ie like DNO but again more units, more events and I couldn't get it to work for the length of FITE. If I remember correctly in DNO once the factories were moved the soviets didn't get the factories back because the game ended before they came back online.
4. Based on the numbers that SMK has given me I ran them against the numbers that FITE has for soviet replacements and they are almost the same as the historical numbers. The original designers had the numbers right, as long as the german took the same number of cities for the same percentage as was done historically.
5. Soviet air forces, maybe one solution is what they have in other games, start the replacements at 0.
We have discussed the soviet strategy of forward defense before. Why should the soviets to it when they don't have to.
In theroy the soviets should be able to stop the germans in the winter. Supply should be a big factor but it isn't. Shock seems to be more of a factor to slow assaults down.
If you get rid of the soviet mp units do you replace them with units that aren't represented in the current OOB or allow the soviets to be able to breakdown some units.
Based on what has been said above and what I attempted to do, there is no need for the production model in the game, just bring in units to dispand them.
1. To use the EEV like the DNO scenario I would need a lot of events, have about 400 left in current scenario. I think DNO uses most of its events to do this and the factories.
2. To use the units to disband like in DNO I figured I needed around 120 soviet units and that was doing units monthly. I was going to use counters for inf replacements like DNO but couldn't find enough empty slots with the counter limit. (don't have my notes any more seems the dog ate them!!)
3. I wanted to give the soviet player the option of moving the factories, ie like DNO but again more units, more events and I couldn't get it to work for the length of FITE. If I remember correctly in DNO once the factories were moved the soviets didn't get the factories back because the game ended before they came back online.
4. Based on the numbers that SMK has given me I ran them against the numbers that FITE has for soviet replacements and they are almost the same as the historical numbers. The original designers had the numbers right, as long as the german took the same number of cities for the same percentage as was done historically.
5. Soviet air forces, maybe one solution is what they have in other games, start the replacements at 0.
We have discussed the soviet strategy of forward defense before. Why should the soviets to it when they don't have to.
In theroy the soviets should be able to stop the germans in the winter. Supply should be a big factor but it isn't. Shock seems to be more of a factor to slow assaults down.
If you get rid of the soviet mp units do you replace them with units that aren't represented in the current OOB or allow the soviets to be able to breakdown some units.
Based on what has been said above and what I attempted to do, there is no need for the production model in the game, just bring in units to dispand them.
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
What's the date of T320?
July 13th, 1944
Karri has had to make due with rail capacity 6000 since turn 16.
It goes back to 12,000, as soon as he recaptures Moscow!
I don't know how karri got so many planes
There are 8 different types of Soviet planes that recieve 150 or more replacements each turn, some as many as 400. That's 800 a week just for I-16's! (the I-16 production does stop at turn 50). I've noticed in the latter turns I usually get about 200-300 Soviet planes destroyed per turn, even that many doesn't make a dent.
For stalingrad give one unit modelling all 1941 production apearing at the end of 1941. It shouldn't fall before then so no need to divy it up.
The productiion ideas are very good so don't take this comment wrong. The problem I see is that you can come with a very good way to do it for most situations, but the same idea fails in other situations. For example, how many specific models of production or supply would take into account the fall of Moscow prior to turn 17? And once you model that, someone can come up with another. Another example is that I decided one day that I would do the same thing being talked about here, but only for Soviet trucks, based on production and Lend-Lease. This seemed important enough for me to make the effort, as Soviet mobility increased as the war progressed and the flat truck production rate in the scenario didn't deal with this specifically. It seemed pretty easy to do but as I put my silly brain to it and started trying to think of all the 'what ifs' that would have to be built in, I came to the conclusion that it was pretty impossible and that really the way it is, is good enough. Also, I haven't looked at DNO's event list to see how the complex EEV system was done, but just reading about it here I can assume that it took alot of events to do it.
...but in real life all those cities were lost and tank production skyrocketed.
Soviet production goes up 300% during the scenario. Good grief, 275 Yak-9's a turn x300% .... omg! ...1,650 per week! No wonder the Luftwaffe had some aces with over 300 victories! With that many planes, the Soviets must have been flying into each other!
I haven't done any EEV work myself, but maybe it could be done fairly simply by making one grid that increases it by some for each major Soviet production area taken by the Axis, and lowered some as the scenario progresses (time vs. rate of advance). The goal being to model a more than historic advance by the Germans triggering some production loss or some lower Soviet shock (sorry Soviet players). If that worked, the same could be done in the reverse for the later part of the scenario. Using a current AAR as an example, Josh's amazing capture of Moscow on turn 16 wouldn't specifically trigger the EEV effects, as the whole of the south was untouched, offsetting the brilliant advance. However, the loss of Moscow and Leningrad, that might trigger something.
July 13th, 1944
Karri has had to make due with rail capacity 6000 since turn 16.
It goes back to 12,000, as soon as he recaptures Moscow!
I don't know how karri got so many planes
There are 8 different types of Soviet planes that recieve 150 or more replacements each turn, some as many as 400. That's 800 a week just for I-16's! (the I-16 production does stop at turn 50). I've noticed in the latter turns I usually get about 200-300 Soviet planes destroyed per turn, even that many doesn't make a dent.
For stalingrad give one unit modelling all 1941 production apearing at the end of 1941. It shouldn't fall before then so no need to divy it up.
The productiion ideas are very good so don't take this comment wrong. The problem I see is that you can come with a very good way to do it for most situations, but the same idea fails in other situations. For example, how many specific models of production or supply would take into account the fall of Moscow prior to turn 17? And once you model that, someone can come up with another. Another example is that I decided one day that I would do the same thing being talked about here, but only for Soviet trucks, based on production and Lend-Lease. This seemed important enough for me to make the effort, as Soviet mobility increased as the war progressed and the flat truck production rate in the scenario didn't deal with this specifically. It seemed pretty easy to do but as I put my silly brain to it and started trying to think of all the 'what ifs' that would have to be built in, I came to the conclusion that it was pretty impossible and that really the way it is, is good enough. Also, I haven't looked at DNO's event list to see how the complex EEV system was done, but just reading about it here I can assume that it took alot of events to do it.
...but in real life all those cities were lost and tank production skyrocketed.
Soviet production goes up 300% during the scenario. Good grief, 275 Yak-9's a turn x300% .... omg! ...1,650 per week! No wonder the Luftwaffe had some aces with over 300 victories! With that many planes, the Soviets must have been flying into each other!
I haven't done any EEV work myself, but maybe it could be done fairly simply by making one grid that increases it by some for each major Soviet production area taken by the Axis, and lowered some as the scenario progresses (time vs. rate of advance). The goal being to model a more than historic advance by the Germans triggering some production loss or some lower Soviet shock (sorry Soviet players). If that worked, the same could be done in the reverse for the later part of the scenario. Using a current AAR as an example, Josh's amazing capture of Moscow on turn 16 wouldn't specifically trigger the EEV effects, as the whole of the south was untouched, offsetting the brilliant advance. However, the loss of Moscow and Leningrad, that might trigger something.
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
"There are 8 different types of Soviet planes that recieve 150 or more replacements each turn, some as many as 400. That's 800 a week just for I-16's! (the I-16 production does stop at turn 50). I've noticed in the latter turns I usually get about 200-300 Soviet planes destroyed per turn, even that many doesn't make a dent. "
Well someone suggested that I do a better job destroying the soviet planes in the first few turns, so I went and systematically mapped every soviet airfield, and the number of planes there. Looks like the germans could potentially disable 7351 soviet planes located in 44 airfields in the first few turns. Next game of FITE I will have to try that.
"For example, how many specific models of production or supply would take into account the fall of Moscow prior to turn 17? And once you model that, someone can come up with another. Another example is that I decided one day that I would do the same thing being talked about here, but only for Soviet trucks, based on production and Lend-Lease"
Well I don't know if it would work but you could use my idea of creating an empty unit representing each factory you had in mind. If the city is captured at some early date the unit stays and, being empty, sucks up replacements equal to the factories production. If the factory falls at a late enough date that it is deemed evacuated, then you disband the unit. So in that case you would need just one unit for each factory that could be concievably captured early.
Another idea is to use a physical unit to represent the factory itself. This is done in DNO, but it uses alot of events, and when production falls from destroying a factory it is production of everything. Maybe you could have a rail bound units representing the factory and its workers in each appropriate city. Honor rules dictate when the factory is eligible to be moved to the Urals. If the factory successfully evacuates then everything goes on as normal. If it is destroyed then the soviet player is penalized in the following way:
Lets says Germans destroy Kharkov tank factory. Looking at production data we determine Kharkov tank factory = 15% of soviet tank production. Well when the soviet tank production units appear in the Urals waiting to be disbanded into the ready pool the soviet player has to wait 15% longer. So if he gets 3 tank units a year, that is one every 34 turns. IF he loses Kharkov factory then he still gets a tank unit every 34 turns but he must wait 5 turns (15% of 34) before he can disband it and enter the tanks into his ready pool. Since production rate is time vs number of units, and we just made time go up, then production rate has now fallen 15%.
This would take one unit for each city with a factory. So probably 20 or less.
To remind the player you could do something like this: In the Urals region have a hex lablled Kharkov factory 5 hexes distant from the entry point for soviet tank production. Give the production unit some heavy equipment so they have movment 1. If Kharkov factory has been evacauted, and is sitting in its labelled hex then the production unit can be disbanded immediately. If not it must travel into the empty hex before disbanding. Since its movement is 1, and the hex is 5 distant, then the unit disbands 5 turns later than it would, and since the next unit also disbands 5 turns later, and the next, overall tanks at the front drop 15%.
Well someone suggested that I do a better job destroying the soviet planes in the first few turns, so I went and systematically mapped every soviet airfield, and the number of planes there. Looks like the germans could potentially disable 7351 soviet planes located in 44 airfields in the first few turns. Next game of FITE I will have to try that.
"For example, how many specific models of production or supply would take into account the fall of Moscow prior to turn 17? And once you model that, someone can come up with another. Another example is that I decided one day that I would do the same thing being talked about here, but only for Soviet trucks, based on production and Lend-Lease"
Well I don't know if it would work but you could use my idea of creating an empty unit representing each factory you had in mind. If the city is captured at some early date the unit stays and, being empty, sucks up replacements equal to the factories production. If the factory falls at a late enough date that it is deemed evacuated, then you disband the unit. So in that case you would need just one unit for each factory that could be concievably captured early.
Another idea is to use a physical unit to represent the factory itself. This is done in DNO, but it uses alot of events, and when production falls from destroying a factory it is production of everything. Maybe you could have a rail bound units representing the factory and its workers in each appropriate city. Honor rules dictate when the factory is eligible to be moved to the Urals. If the factory successfully evacuates then everything goes on as normal. If it is destroyed then the soviet player is penalized in the following way:
Lets says Germans destroy Kharkov tank factory. Looking at production data we determine Kharkov tank factory = 15% of soviet tank production. Well when the soviet tank production units appear in the Urals waiting to be disbanded into the ready pool the soviet player has to wait 15% longer. So if he gets 3 tank units a year, that is one every 34 turns. IF he loses Kharkov factory then he still gets a tank unit every 34 turns but he must wait 5 turns (15% of 34) before he can disband it and enter the tanks into his ready pool. Since production rate is time vs number of units, and we just made time go up, then production rate has now fallen 15%.
This would take one unit for each city with a factory. So probably 20 or less.
To remind the player you could do something like this: In the Urals region have a hex lablled Kharkov factory 5 hexes distant from the entry point for soviet tank production. Give the production unit some heavy equipment so they have movment 1. If Kharkov factory has been evacauted, and is sitting in its labelled hex then the production unit can be disbanded immediately. If not it must travel into the empty hex before disbanding. Since its movement is 1, and the hex is 5 distant, then the unit disbands 5 turns later than it would, and since the next unit also disbands 5 turns later, and the next, overall tanks at the front drop 15%.
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Alright, here is another version of the production idea I outlined above. Split soviet production up amongst 1. Artillery, AT, and AA guns 2. Tanks and self propelled guns 3. Aircraft
Every 4 months the soviet player gets one unit for each of these cagetogories appearing in the urals. The unit contains an ammount of equipment equal to the historical production for that time period.
The first unit appears 2 months into the game. Each unit has a movment of one. (yes it is possible to make a unit with air equipment and ground movement that can be disbanded) The production rate of all this equipment in the replacement editor is 0. To get his historical production the soviet player must disband these units entering their equipment into his ready pool.
3 categories of equipment, one unit every 4 months = 36 units. (Bye bye NKVD MP units)
So first we have made a model of historical production, now we model factories and factory evacuation.
To do that create a factory unit unit in each town with such a factory. Label them according to what they made, eg. tank factory, aircraft factory etc. These factory units have movement one, and thus can only be evacuated by rail. This would take about 10-20 units. (take out a few AA regiments)
Up in the urals we are going to use hexes to make sort of production chart like in old boardgames. We are going to use units as counters on that chart. By using this chart we can determine the loss of production based on the loss and evacuation of factories.
Basically it looks like this: At one end of the chart is the hex where the production unit appears. The middle of the chart contains some open hexes and some hexes labelled "factory" The soviet player must fill the hexes labelled "factory" starting at the opposite end of the hex row from the hex where the production unit appears. When his production unit enters once every for months, the soviet player can not disband it if the nearest hex to the right labelled "factory" is empty.
So if the soviet player has all the factory hexes filled then he can disband the production unit immediately. If he saved only 3 out of 4 factories, then the production unit must plod 1 hex at a time through the open hexes to the first factory hex to the right before it can disband. If 2 factories are gone he must plod further to the right before he can disband, and so on.
Production rate = time vs amount of equipment We keep the amount of equipment the same no matter what, but with fewer factories the soviet player must take longer to disband his units and thus production rate falls.
Here is a chart, P labels the hex where the production unit appears. "o" is an open hex "F" is a hex labelled factory with a factory unit in it. "X" is a hex labelled factory that is empty. "!" is a hex side. Please don't make fun of me for my lame chart.
!P!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!
This is ideally what the soviet players hexes will look like. Every factory hex has a big F indicating he has saved his factories and placed them in those hexes. Since all factory hexes are filled he can disband his production unit immediately after it arrives dumping the equipment into his pool.
!P!o!o!o!o!X!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!
This is what it would look like if the german player destroyed a factory before the soviet player could evacuate it. Since the soviet player cannot disband his production unit until all the hexes labelled factory to his right is occupied by a factory he must now move his production unit to the space labelled "X" With a movement of 1, and 4 open spaces between him and the empty space this will take 5 turns. Soviet player gets a production unit every 34 turns, but with a factory missing he can only enter those units into his pool every 39 turns, this represents a production loss of 15% from losing a factory. You can adjust the percent loss from each factory by changing the distance inbetween the hexes labelled "factory"
The interesting thing about this method is you can also model the dip in production between evacuating factories and restablishing them. When the game starts all the hexes labelled factory in the urals will be empty since the actual factories are in their corresponding cities. In their place put a place holder unit (it can be an AA unit, whatever) that appears in the hexes labelled factory up in the Urals. If a factory leaves its home town, the placeholder unit is disbanded.
So for instance looking down the line of hexes representing tank factories in the Urals they begin the game all occupied with placeholder units. Thus when the 1st soviet production unit appears it can be disbanded immediately as all the hexes are occupied.
Lets say the Soviet player evacuates his tank factory in Kharkov. He immediately disbands the corresponding placeholder unit in the urals. Now when his production unit appears he must now wait a couple of turns as a factory hex is now empty. If the factory is destroyed enroute then the hex remains permamently empty and tank production is slowed correspondingly. If the Kharkov factory makes it to the Urals and occupies the appropriate hex the production resumes at its normal pace.
Using this system the Soviet player would get a dangerous dip in tank production if all his factories evacuated at once, but steady production if they never left their original cities.
Every 4 months the soviet player gets one unit for each of these cagetogories appearing in the urals. The unit contains an ammount of equipment equal to the historical production for that time period.
The first unit appears 2 months into the game. Each unit has a movment of one. (yes it is possible to make a unit with air equipment and ground movement that can be disbanded) The production rate of all this equipment in the replacement editor is 0. To get his historical production the soviet player must disband these units entering their equipment into his ready pool.
3 categories of equipment, one unit every 4 months = 36 units. (Bye bye NKVD MP units)
So first we have made a model of historical production, now we model factories and factory evacuation.
To do that create a factory unit unit in each town with such a factory. Label them according to what they made, eg. tank factory, aircraft factory etc. These factory units have movement one, and thus can only be evacuated by rail. This would take about 10-20 units. (take out a few AA regiments)
Up in the urals we are going to use hexes to make sort of production chart like in old boardgames. We are going to use units as counters on that chart. By using this chart we can determine the loss of production based on the loss and evacuation of factories.
Basically it looks like this: At one end of the chart is the hex where the production unit appears. The middle of the chart contains some open hexes and some hexes labelled "factory" The soviet player must fill the hexes labelled "factory" starting at the opposite end of the hex row from the hex where the production unit appears. When his production unit enters once every for months, the soviet player can not disband it if the nearest hex to the right labelled "factory" is empty.
So if the soviet player has all the factory hexes filled then he can disband the production unit immediately. If he saved only 3 out of 4 factories, then the production unit must plod 1 hex at a time through the open hexes to the first factory hex to the right before it can disband. If 2 factories are gone he must plod further to the right before he can disband, and so on.
Production rate = time vs amount of equipment We keep the amount of equipment the same no matter what, but with fewer factories the soviet player must take longer to disband his units and thus production rate falls.
Here is a chart, P labels the hex where the production unit appears. "o" is an open hex "F" is a hex labelled factory with a factory unit in it. "X" is a hex labelled factory that is empty. "!" is a hex side. Please don't make fun of me for my lame chart.
!P!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!
This is ideally what the soviet players hexes will look like. Every factory hex has a big F indicating he has saved his factories and placed them in those hexes. Since all factory hexes are filled he can disband his production unit immediately after it arrives dumping the equipment into his pool.
!P!o!o!o!o!X!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!
This is what it would look like if the german player destroyed a factory before the soviet player could evacuate it. Since the soviet player cannot disband his production unit until all the hexes labelled factory to his right is occupied by a factory he must now move his production unit to the space labelled "X" With a movement of 1, and 4 open spaces between him and the empty space this will take 5 turns. Soviet player gets a production unit every 34 turns, but with a factory missing he can only enter those units into his pool every 39 turns, this represents a production loss of 15% from losing a factory. You can adjust the percent loss from each factory by changing the distance inbetween the hexes labelled "factory"
The interesting thing about this method is you can also model the dip in production between evacuating factories and restablishing them. When the game starts all the hexes labelled factory in the urals will be empty since the actual factories are in their corresponding cities. In their place put a place holder unit (it can be an AA unit, whatever) that appears in the hexes labelled factory up in the Urals. If a factory leaves its home town, the placeholder unit is disbanded.
So for instance looking down the line of hexes representing tank factories in the Urals they begin the game all occupied with placeholder units. Thus when the 1st soviet production unit appears it can be disbanded immediately as all the hexes are occupied.
Lets say the Soviet player evacuates his tank factory in Kharkov. He immediately disbands the corresponding placeholder unit in the urals. Now when his production unit appears he must now wait a couple of turns as a factory hex is now empty. If the factory is destroyed enroute then the hex remains permamently empty and tank production is slowed correspondingly. If the Kharkov factory makes it to the Urals and occupies the appropriate hex the production resumes at its normal pace.
Using this system the Soviet player would get a dangerous dip in tank production if all his factories evacuated at once, but steady production if they never left their original cities.
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
The point of all this being, right now if you lose Odessa, or Minsk, or Bryansk or sevastopol, you tank production falls a certain amount. But none of those cities had tank factories so why would tank production be affected? Similarily if lose Kharkov which had a tank factory tank production goes down by 10%. But in real life Kharkov was taken and tank production was not affected because the factory was evacauted.
Using the system I outlined above you could take Odessa, and minsk and bryansk and suffer a 5% loss in your manpower, but your tank production would be unaffected. If lose Kharkov and manage to evacuate your tank factory production will go down while it is being relocated, but go back up once it is restablished in the urals. If you lose Kharkov too early and your tank factory is destroyed you will lose a corresponding amount of tank production permanently. And of course you can do this for aircraft and artillery production for a total of about 50 units.
Using the system I outlined above you could take Odessa, and minsk and bryansk and suffer a 5% loss in your manpower, but your tank production would be unaffected. If lose Kharkov and manage to evacuate your tank factory production will go down while it is being relocated, but go back up once it is restablished in the urals. If you lose Kharkov too early and your tank factory is destroyed you will lose a corresponding amount of tank production permanently. And of course you can do this for aircraft and artillery production for a total of about 50 units.
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
So from what I read above, you are basically doing away with the production portion of the game and utilizing disbandable units. With personnel being the only item covered by the production model. So why not go one more step and do the same with personnel. Not every captured city should be a 5% decrease in personnel. DNO does a decent job of where the personnel show up. And when the soviets retake the hex the units will reappear as they liberate more people.
Looks like a decent idea, a lot of manual intervention by the player. Optimally the game system should take care of the management you are recommending.
Fungwu are you going to work on a mod to do you recommended changes?
Looks like a decent idea, a lot of manual intervention by the player. Optimally the game system should take care of the management you are recommending.
Fungwu are you going to work on a mod to do you recommended changes?
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
I like how it's working currently. I'm more into gameplay than history, and that's why a simple 5% penalty if Germans say capture Kiev too early would be fine with me. So what if there weren't tank factories, doesn't really matter to me. I'm sure that Swede joining axis would not increase tank production either...
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Looks like the germans could potentially disable 7351 soviet planes located in 44 airfields in the first few turns.
Holy moly, I didn't know that! I knocked out 2,885 once and thought I did good, apparently not! Some of the airfields are out of German range, aren't they?
...a lot of manual intervention by the player.
Just my preference, but when I open a new scenario and see a lot of scenario specific guidelines/instructions/house rules, I close it and move on to something else. I couldn't even concentrate long enough to read all the above descriptions! I'm with Karri, let's just play a game! But the 'Fugwu Fite Production Mod' would certainly be interesting to see.
You can eliminate about 15 Soviet partisan units to get more units, and eliminate German security and mp units to compensate. This also increases playablity (um, in my opinion). However, some players love partisans, and others love Nkvd ants, and still others love to run a production war!
Holy moly, I didn't know that! I knocked out 2,885 once and thought I did good, apparently not! Some of the airfields are out of German range, aren't they?
...a lot of manual intervention by the player.
Just my preference, but when I open a new scenario and see a lot of scenario specific guidelines/instructions/house rules, I close it and move on to something else. I couldn't even concentrate long enough to read all the above descriptions! I'm with Karri, let's just play a game! But the 'Fugwu Fite Production Mod' would certainly be interesting to see.
You can eliminate about 15 Soviet partisan units to get more units, and eliminate German security and mp units to compensate. This also increases playablity (um, in my opinion). However, some players love partisans, and others love Nkvd ants, and still others love to run a production war!
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SMK-at-work
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Soviet production goes up 300% during the scenario. Good grief, 275 Yak-9's a turn x300% .... omg! ...1,650 per week! No wonder the Luftwaffe had some aces with over 300 victories! With that many planes, the Soviets must have been flying into each other!
Is it truly so high???
I haven't really looked at the numbers but that that would be far too many - Wiki says about 16,700 Yak-9's were built to 1948....there are production figures around for most Soviet a/c so I'll do some math for this weekend.......Zort already changed the LaGG-3 to "realistic" figures at my bidding a few months ago.
Ditto for tanks (thanks to RKKA) and artillery (there's generic figfures on RKKA IIRC)
Edit: fungwe that's a very clever idea for production. I have 2 concerns...
1/ It only inflicts a 5 turn produciton losss if factories are lost - ie if the production unit has to move to the 2nd factory hex that's 5 more turns....but the next unit arriving 34 turns later will get to the produciton hex 34 turns after the 1st one did - sure it will be 5 turns later than it would be otherwise, but the full produciton will still be arriving every 34 turns...albeit 5 turns later than it would be otherwise - so effectively only 5 turns production is lost.
IMO the effect of factory losss should be lost production of that factory forever, not just 5 turns - so if you had 4 factories and lost 1 then you should get only 75% production.
2/ The production delay for moving factories is not long enough.
Looking at Factory 183 T34 Production figures from RKKA, production tailed off at Kharkov to 41 in October 41, then stopped altogether in November, and 25 from Nizhniy Tagil in December, 75 in January 42, 140 in Feb, 225 in March (more or less 100% pre shift production) - so From October to February it got about 1.25 months prodution at pre-shift level - ie it lost 3.75 months production - about 2/3rds the possible total.
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Thanks for pointing that out, I apologize for being so drastically wrong. It's 275 x34% at start (93.5 per turn) then x294% on turn 48 (275 per turn, 550 per week). Buzz modded it to spread it out a little more. The Yak-9's don't actually start until turn 135 (Oct 42).
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LLv34_Snefens
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Remember that what is called Yak-9 in Fite really covers all versions of Yak-9 and Yak-3. Yak-1 is both Yak-1's and Yak-7.
LaGG-3 might also include early La-5 production in them I can't remember off the top of my head.
LaGG-3 might also include early La-5 production in them I can't remember off the top of my head.
Stefan O. Kristensen
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Yes, I remember that from about 4 months ago, not to mess with the production numbers or something else would get thrown off.
Can you speak about why you didn't use the DNO production/EEV model? I guess it's been gone over before but some of us haven't been around here that long. I think it was because of the number of events available, as Fite was designed under COW with only 500.
Thanks.
Can you speak about why you didn't use the DNO production/EEV model? I guess it's been gone over before but some of us haven't been around here that long. I think it was because of the number of events available, as Fite was designed under COW with only 500.
Thanks.
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SMK-at-work
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens
Remember that what is called Yak-9 in Fite really covers all versions of Yak-9 and Yak-3. Yak-1 is both Yak-1's and Yak-7.
LaGG-3 might also include early La-5 production in them I can't remember off the top of my head.
Yes I remember soething like that from your article on design decisions for FITE I think. I'd be surprised if there were any major errors....your research has proved pretty damned good so far [&o][&o]
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
"So from what I read above, you are basically doing away with the production portion of the game and utilizing disbandable units. With personnel being the only item covered by the production model. So why not go one more step and do the same with personnel. Not every captured city should be a 5% decrease in personnel. DNO does a decent job of where the personnel show up. And when the soviets retake the hex the units will reappear as they liberate more people. "
Well yes you could make it more like DNO, but my brain hurts from trying to figure out a good way to do tank production, so I decided to leave personel alone. I guess the ultimate easy fix would be to give soviets historical production and just not alter it. Taking cities would then only count for victory points, and maybe with an EEV model torwards shock or other penalties.
"Looks like a decent idea, a lot of manual intervention by the player. Optimally the game system should take care of the management you are recommending. "
Optimally yes, but I always try to go for the simplest possible changes, and this was the best I could come up with. I'm not sure there is a ton of intervention. Evacuating your factories in the beginning, and then you have the hex based chart I described so you don't really have to remember anything. WIth production units appearing only 12 times in a 405 turn game I don't think it is really alot of intervention to model the production for the whole war.
Fungwu are you going to work on a mod to do you recommended changes?"
Well I would need a few things. Tanks would be the simplest to model since I have the historical production from that website and the location of the factories. What I would need for tanks is to know how many tanks enter the game in normal units so I can subtract that from the historical production and figure out how many should be in the production units. The easy way, other than counting the tank content in every tank unit that enters the game, would be to trust the scenario designers when they say that production will be historical with historical german advances. That way all I would have to do is play a hotseat game, take all the objectives that were taken and then check the soviet production numbers and use those. I could then use the same numbers for artillery and air.
Using the easy way the last thing I would need to know is the location of Soviet air and artillery factories.
Actually, since I would first need to learn how to use the scenario editor, I was hoping you could do all the hard work Zort
"1/ It only inflicts a 5 turn produciton losss if factories are lost - ie if the production unit has to move to the 2nd factory hex that's 5 more turns....but the next unit arriving 34 turns later will get to the produciton hex 34 turns after the 1st one did - sure it will be 5 turns later than it would be otherwise, but the full produciton will still be arriving every 34 turns...albeit 5 turns later than it would be otherwise - so effectively only 5 turns production is lost.
IMO the effect of factory losss should be lost production of that factory forever, not just 5 turns - so if you had 4 factories and lost 1 then you should get only 75% production."
Well your right, I was partially aware of that this morning when I was first posted, but I had to leave so I couldn't really wrap my mind around it. Here is a chart: The leftmost column is the number of the production unit, the middle column is the turn they would normally be disbanded, and the right hand column is the turn they would be disbanded if they had to wait 5 turns. As SMK correctly points out the difference between the turns in the middle column is 34, and the difference between the right column is also 34, meaning production is delayed, but not reduced as I had intended.
1st T 34 T39
2nd T 68 T73
3rd T 102 T107
4th T 136 T141
This chart is what it should look like. Notice the difference between the time the production unit is disbanded in the right hand column is 39 turns instead of 34 turns. If you disbanded a 10,000 strong tank unit every 34 turns you would get 294 tanks a turn. If you disbanded the same unit every 39 turns you would get 256 tanks a turn. A drop of about 13%.
1st T34 T 39
2nd T68 T 78
3rd T102 T 117
4th T136 T156
Now look at the differenc between the columns, so first
39 vs 34 =5
68 vs 78 = 10
102 vs 117 = 15
136 vs 156 = 20
The solution is to number the production units #1 #2 #3 #4, the number of the unit is how many spaces(times 5 in our example) on the factory chart the unit has to travel for each empty factory.
So unit 1 arrives on turn 34. There is one empty space so it travel 5 hexes before disbanding on turn 39. Unit 2 arrives on turn 68 it must travel 2x5 or 10 spaces, so it disbands on turn 78. Unit 3 must travel 3x5 or 15 spaces disbanding in turn 117. And so on.
(the obivous downside here what happens when you get to the end of the war, unit number 12 is going to be walking for quite some time)
Well yes you could make it more like DNO, but my brain hurts from trying to figure out a good way to do tank production, so I decided to leave personel alone. I guess the ultimate easy fix would be to give soviets historical production and just not alter it. Taking cities would then only count for victory points, and maybe with an EEV model torwards shock or other penalties.
"Looks like a decent idea, a lot of manual intervention by the player. Optimally the game system should take care of the management you are recommending. "
Optimally yes, but I always try to go for the simplest possible changes, and this was the best I could come up with. I'm not sure there is a ton of intervention. Evacuating your factories in the beginning, and then you have the hex based chart I described so you don't really have to remember anything. WIth production units appearing only 12 times in a 405 turn game I don't think it is really alot of intervention to model the production for the whole war.
Fungwu are you going to work on a mod to do you recommended changes?"
Well I would need a few things. Tanks would be the simplest to model since I have the historical production from that website and the location of the factories. What I would need for tanks is to know how many tanks enter the game in normal units so I can subtract that from the historical production and figure out how many should be in the production units. The easy way, other than counting the tank content in every tank unit that enters the game, would be to trust the scenario designers when they say that production will be historical with historical german advances. That way all I would have to do is play a hotseat game, take all the objectives that were taken and then check the soviet production numbers and use those. I could then use the same numbers for artillery and air.
Using the easy way the last thing I would need to know is the location of Soviet air and artillery factories.
Actually, since I would first need to learn how to use the scenario editor, I was hoping you could do all the hard work Zort
"1/ It only inflicts a 5 turn produciton losss if factories are lost - ie if the production unit has to move to the 2nd factory hex that's 5 more turns....but the next unit arriving 34 turns later will get to the produciton hex 34 turns after the 1st one did - sure it will be 5 turns later than it would be otherwise, but the full produciton will still be arriving every 34 turns...albeit 5 turns later than it would be otherwise - so effectively only 5 turns production is lost.
IMO the effect of factory losss should be lost production of that factory forever, not just 5 turns - so if you had 4 factories and lost 1 then you should get only 75% production."
Well your right, I was partially aware of that this morning when I was first posted, but I had to leave so I couldn't really wrap my mind around it. Here is a chart: The leftmost column is the number of the production unit, the middle column is the turn they would normally be disbanded, and the right hand column is the turn they would be disbanded if they had to wait 5 turns. As SMK correctly points out the difference between the turns in the middle column is 34, and the difference between the right column is also 34, meaning production is delayed, but not reduced as I had intended.
1st T 34 T39
2nd T 68 T73
3rd T 102 T107
4th T 136 T141
This chart is what it should look like. Notice the difference between the time the production unit is disbanded in the right hand column is 39 turns instead of 34 turns. If you disbanded a 10,000 strong tank unit every 34 turns you would get 294 tanks a turn. If you disbanded the same unit every 39 turns you would get 256 tanks a turn. A drop of about 13%.
1st T34 T 39
2nd T68 T 78
3rd T102 T 117
4th T136 T156
Now look at the differenc between the columns, so first
39 vs 34 =5
68 vs 78 = 10
102 vs 117 = 15
136 vs 156 = 20
The solution is to number the production units #1 #2 #3 #4, the number of the unit is how many spaces(times 5 in our example) on the factory chart the unit has to travel for each empty factory.
So unit 1 arrives on turn 34. There is one empty space so it travel 5 hexes before disbanding on turn 39. Unit 2 arrives on turn 68 it must travel 2x5 or 10 spaces, so it disbands on turn 78. Unit 3 must travel 3x5 or 15 spaces disbanding in turn 117. And so on.
(the obivous downside here what happens when you get to the end of the war, unit number 12 is going to be walking for quite some time)
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SMK-at-work
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Yeah that's what I thought you would be trying to achieve, but I figured I should ask
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
/" The production delay for moving factories is not long enough.
Looking at Factory 183 T34 Production figures from RKKA, production tailed off at Kharkov to 41 in October 41, then stopped altogether in November, and 25 from Nizhniy Tagil in December, 75 in January 42, 140 in Feb, 225 in March (more or less 100% pre shift production) - so From October to February it got about 1.25 months prodution at pre-shift level - ie it lost 3.75 months production - about 2/3rds the possible total."
I had thought about this as well, though for sake of space I did not post earlier. You can control the speed at which factories can be moved by changing the space between the end of the railhead in the urals and the hex which the factory has to be moved to occupy its place in the production chart. So for instance you want moving a factory to take 4 months, just put 34 spaces between the end of the rail head and the where the factory needs to go.
Looking at Factory 183 T34 Production figures from RKKA, production tailed off at Kharkov to 41 in October 41, then stopped altogether in November, and 25 from Nizhniy Tagil in December, 75 in January 42, 140 in Feb, 225 in March (more or less 100% pre shift production) - so From October to February it got about 1.25 months prodution at pre-shift level - ie it lost 3.75 months production - about 2/3rds the possible total."
I had thought about this as well, though for sake of space I did not post earlier. You can control the speed at which factories can be moved by changing the space between the end of the railhead in the urals and the hex which the factory has to be moved to occupy its place in the production chart. So for instance you want moving a factory to take 4 months, just put 34 spaces between the end of the rail head and the where the factory needs to go.
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SMK-at-work
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Yeah...production spirals.....hmm.....I wonder if it would be easier to construct events - make factories immobile and check each turn to see if the factory is still in its city (ie it hasn't been disbanded). If it is no longer there AND the city still belongs to the Sov's then reduce rail by 1000 for 20 turns and 30 turns later you get the replacement factory in Siberia?
The current house rule for disbanding would apply - you can only disband if the unit is in supply - so no evacuating factories that are cut off - they have to stay and die.
The disbanding check could start only after a few turns have passed - so if you disband the factory very early then you don't get it back 30 turns later - you get it back 30 turns after the first turn of checking - probably start checking about end of July for some (Minsk, Kiev??), September for others a bit further back (Kharkov, Smolensk, Leningrad?) and so on?
Someone more au fait with the events system could comment on this....
The current house rule for disbanding would apply - you can only disband if the unit is in supply - so no evacuating factories that are cut off - they have to stay and die.
The disbanding check could start only after a few turns have passed - so if you disband the factory very early then you don't get it back 30 turns later - you get it back 30 turns after the first turn of checking - probably start checking about end of July for some (Minsk, Kiev??), September for others a bit further back (Kharkov, Smolensk, Leningrad?) and so on?
Someone more au fait with the events system could comment on this....
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
make factories immobile and check each turn to see if the factory is still in its city (ie it hasn't been disbanded). If it is no longer there AND the city still belongs to the Sov's then reduce rail by 1000 for 20 turns and 30 turns later you get the replacement factory in Siberia?
The disbanding check could start only after a few turns have passed - so if you disband the factory very early then you don't get it back 30 turns later - you get it back 30 turns after the first turn of checking -
Thinking out loud ... it can't check to see if it's there, but if it is disbanded it could trigger a chain that would reduce rail cap and the entry of a new unit. If the germans destroy the unit the same chain would be triggered, if the germans occupy the city the chain could be canceled. On turn 1 the whole setup can be canceled, and then it can be activated on the turn of your choice. Now, if you disband it very early, it gets complex, but could be easy to put the unit in garrison until the turn you like (garrison units can't disband). So you actually couldn't disband it until the later turns. Then you need to have each unit in its' own formation (no problem for the soviets though, they got plenty of formation room).
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri
Well in DNO factories are locked and to activate them you choose a theater option. So you could tie all the effects you wanted to activating the theater option.