Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: ctangus

ORIGINAL: William Amos

I think many are missing the point of my post...

The changes in the Admiral's edition are nice but since I already have WITP do I really want to spend $100 dollars to get WITP even with a few changes?

Id honestly want Matrix to spend the time making WITP 2 than just revamping the old game...

I say these things as a fan of this game. Its a great game and as always can be better. But I think I can honestly state that rather than a grand fix a new version of this game is the better way to go...

I think I understood your point, it seems legitimate to me, and it's certainly not up to me to tell you how to spend your money.

My opinion does differ from yours, however. It doesn't seem like just a re-vamp of the old game. The depth of the changes that have been outlined will IMO make this an entirely new game. At least on the user-end, even if it's built on existing code on the developer-end. From that point of view I intend to order it the first moment that I'm able to. If I only get 1/10 the value for money that I got from WITP, it will be very worthwhile.

I expected a patch. I think it is a new game - presented as an upgrade. The change in scale, map system, data base file structure - is fundamental. It is as different from WITP I as WITP I is from UV. It is a new game. The question is - can we mod it - or not? That turns on wether or not we can work with pwhex? But while that is partly up to Matrix - Matrix never gave us a pwhex editor for WITP I either - and we still got there. Cobra's son did a custom one. By the time he did that, there were two public products available. And Andrew did a custom one not released generally. So it can be done - and I bet it will be done - whatever Matrix decides. Matrix doing the right thing - giving us an Editor (or SELLING us an editor - hint hint) - only means it will be done sooner - and everyone will be better off - including Matrix.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mifune

For me I probably wont purchase AE either. Not because of the money, it has certainly taken much of my time over the past two years. It certainly was worth the investment with tons of enjoyment. If there were not the limitations now on AE I would have purchased this at any cost. But not being able to work on your own maps and pwhex file is a purchase breaker now. The game was a modders dream. With tremendous community support by many people. Now its not, and it is a shame.

Mifune,

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that AE will be any less "MODDER Friendly" than stock. I certainly am not aware of any reason why this would be the case. Unless we encrypted the map art and/or pwhexE files (which we have no plans to do) then "MOD-ABILITY" of these two files would be exactly as it is in stock - "a modders dream" as you say.

Joe

Since we are getting BETTER editors for the data files, Joe is certainly right as far as normal modding goes. It will be a modders dream to have the global updates and other features. But fixing map issues - or enhansing them - or adding seasonal maps or infrastructure changes - does require working with pwhex. Here we have no promises yet - but note we NEVER got an editor ever anyway - and still we got there. So long as this is an open file set, it can be understood - and various things done. Some can even modify it WITHOUT an editor, it is just a pain to do so.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Mifune

Looking at page 3 of the AE map thread (in the Scenario Design section) it looks like the inclusion of map and pwhex utilities so far will not be included. Several of us have asked about this point and so far the response is "This has been discussed, but there hasn't been a decision yet." With all that has been discussed with what AE is including this looks quite ominous.

As Joe says, there are no plans to encrypt the map data. No difference to the current game there.

As to including map/pwhex utilities with the game - there was some decision on that. But since we would first have to develop such a utility (the one I use currently for editing map data is definitely not of a high enough quality to include in a commercial product such as this), and that use up a lot of the time I, and the programmers, need to spend on the game itself, so I do not think the inclusion of a map editor with the game is likely. Again that is no different to the current game.

Andrew

Having noted this already more than once, let me go further: I think the few that might really want to modify pwhex would be willing to pay for anything that makes it easier - and also to be bound by licencing or other terms. I don't think many need this - and those who do don't need a product polished for general users either.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: William Amos
Why ? Because there is apparently still plans for a WITP 2. And that looks to be a much more significant upgrade. So the question is do I wait 6 months for an upgraded WITP Admirals edition or do I wait 2 years for a fully changed WITP 2 ?

I cant afford full rate for both. So it becomes a choice of one or the other. I can play my current version of WITP and do without the Admirals edition and wait out the time for WITP 2.

It doesnt really work that way though.

If AE sells bad (because of people like you perhaps?) then there wont be a witp2 -ever. Just as there would not have been an AE if witp had sold bad.

Im going to stop talking right now, because people like you really piss me off and I dont want to say something bad.

Circular reasoning aside, a succesful AE could help finace a WitP 2 in the distant future.

But simply because someone doesn't want to invest another $70 or so in what could prove to be "eye candy" is no reason to become angry w/them.

Capitalism means AE should sell on its merits, not on what it could do for future WitP development. But if you want to give Matrix money for R&D, then I suggest you wait until it goes public -- assuming it hasn't already -- and buy stock in Matrix; otherwise it's a donation, not an investment.

I remember one guy offered to pay Matrix for certain changes. Maybe - instead - we should propose a subscription - pay matrix some fixed amount - every month - for years. And we get free upgrades in the family for that. Or we pay for editors, technical manuals, support utilities? Just brainstorming here - but I do think we want Matrix to make money. If they choose to do that by selling games - we probably should buy games. Who else is giving us a chance to participate in development and modding like Matrix does?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I expected a patch. I think it is a new game - presented as an upgrade. The change in scale, map system, data base file structure - is fundamental. It is as different from WITP I as WITP I is from UV. It is a new game. The question is - can we mod it - or not? That turns on wether or not we can work with pwhex? But while that is partly up to Matrix - Matrix never gave us a pwhex editor for WITP I either - and we still got there. Cobra's son did a custom one. By the time he did that, there were two public products available. And Andrew did a custom one not released generally. So it can be done - and I bet it will be done - whatever Matrix decides. Matrix doing the right thing - giving us an Editor (or SELLING us an editor - hint hint) - only means it will be done sooner - and everyone will be better off - including Matrix.

Cid. Anything with this many changes/upgrades is bound to need a patch or two after the gaming public starts puting it to the test..., no matter how much playtesting has been done. So I think your "expectation" is a safe one.

Everyone needs to remember that 2by3 is the original designer/developer of WITP, and probably retains a bunch of "rights" to the "property". Thus Matrix undoubtedly has it's hands tied in some respects, even though 2by3 has long since "bailed out" of "supporting" the game (which has been done for the last 2-plus years by members of the AE team). Thus an "editor" may not be in the cards, depending on Matrix's deal with 2by3....

[Chad Harrison]

Just to weigh in on this.
 
WitP is the best $80 I have ever spent as far as entertainment is concerned. You pay $50-60 for a new computer game and if its a good one, youll play it for a month or two before shelving it, and you may pick it up again in the future, but its unlikely.
 
I have been playing WitP/UV for over a year now and have never stopped, and if anything, I am getting more into it as time goes on. My PBEM game is coming up on being played for one year in January. Not even Combat Mission PBEM held my attention for that long, and those were great times back then with CM:BO PBEM.
 
WitP:AE will be worth any price in my opinion becuase it will most likely be the last game I buy for a long time. The amount of stuff going into the game is beyond anything I would have hoped for.
 
Great job guys and looking forward to it [:)]

[GaryChildress]

I'll definitely buy AE. Price is not an issue. I hope they make enough money off AE to invest heavily in WITP II when it comes around as well.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I'll definitely buy AE. Price is not an issue. I hope they make enough money off AE to invest heavily in WITP II when it comes around as well.

I'll toast to this thought.

[TheElf]

None of you have even seen the new map. What makes you think it needs improving already? Ever consider this whole topic might a bit insulting to a guy(Andrew) who has contributed so much to this community?

Give it a rest and reserve judgment for when you actually looked at the thing.

[el cid again]

We do have what Andrew has told us. And we do have some partial screenshots - which show absent certain things that perhaps we wish were present. The published screenshot shows no Kokota Trail - never mind the flanking trail to the South of it - and so we might like to add such things. If we cannot contemplate any changes, then one set of choices rules all for all time - and that at least may not fit everyone perfectly.

It is a general principle - any product can be improved. That inevitably means - if any significant is expended - that the first version of the product always ends up being outshined by later ones. This is a fact of life - and not an insult. The first product is the important one - anything later must stand on that foundation.

We can put a location on the map by adding it to the location file. But how can we put a rail line there - or a river - if it isn't on the map done by Matrix?

[bradfordkay]

"The published screenshot shows no Kokota Trail - never mind the flanking trail to the South of it - and so we might like to add such things."


Sid, you missed the post where Andrew explained that there are no trails on the map anymore. There are primary and secondary roads, with secondary road movement faster than the old trail movement. So if he were to have put the Kokota Track on the map, then movement along it would have been much faster than IRL. There was also little chance that track could have supplied any major divisional movement, so to add a road in those hexes to provide more supply than you would get cross country would also be a mistake, IMO.

I believe that the decision was that trail movement is basically cross country movement, so it is better to create a secondary road system that more properly portrays military movement on the map.

[Terminus]

Yeah, he "missed" it...[8|]

[bradfordkay]

I'll add this. I think that it is fine to add the Kokoda Track if you only do it as eye candy - i.e., draw it in but leave the pwhex file as a cross country hexside.

[JeffroK]

I understand why the track is left off the map, but something must be included to make the line of the track superior to using a different line of approach. But make sure its only a foot track, not usable by anything on wheels or tracks.

Plus the Jaure track was even worse.

[Cmdrcain]

Hummm  after reading these those complaining of paying for  the expansion... why complaining?

It IS a industry  thing in creating
expansions...


For example Civ III... then came the Expansion Play the world... at a bit less then the Civ 3, need civ 3... then came the Conquests
expansion again less then civ 3, needing civ 3 installed,  conquests included the PTW so  it included really 2 expansions, I recall Civ 3 was around 40-50$ with Conquests a 29$
add on.

Current Civ IV has also expansions requiring have Civ 4 ($50) and expansion at $29

So  I don't  see the validity of complaints about needing buy this Witp Expansion.

Hopefully yes it be less then WITP but if it requires have WITP installed to use it then
Matrix  can make a good bit  at a price lesser then WITP  since current WITP users would buy and new buyers would need be buying
both witp and AE..

[DSwain]

I'll be purchasing on day one, pretty much regardless of price (within reason, naturally!) Kudos to Matrix for keeping up the work on this classic game.

[GaryChildress]

I second the kudos! Just found out who the artists are going to be for AE. It's going to be an INCREDIBLE gaming experience! [&o]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: DSwain

I'll be purchasing on day one, pretty much regardless of price (within reason, naturally!) Kudos to Matrix for keeping up the work on this classic game.

You've "skirted" the question Matrix is dying to know---how much is "within reason"? $30? $45? $60? Maybe the forum needs to provide them with some "input" on the question...

[GaryChildress]

For me personally...anything over $400 and I would have to do a serious cost benefit analysis. Either that or postpone my next computer upgrade for another year. Under $400 I think my demand is pretty inflexible enough that I would have to buy it. I'd just have to cut back on a few other luxuries. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. [:D]

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: DSwain

I'll be purchasing on day one, pretty much regardless of price (within reason, naturally!) Kudos to Matrix for keeping up the work on this classic game.

You've "skirted" the question Matrix is dying to know---how much is "within reason"? $30? $45? $60? Maybe the forum needs to provide them with some "input" on the question...

Under $100.00 works for me.