Not to PBEM

[bradfordkay]

Hans Bolter wrote:
"2. A first class opponent is one who won't ruin your game experience by engaging in some idiotic "gamey" exploit of the mechanics. Again, AI wins hands down!"

Uhhh.... in WITP the AI doesn't need to send supplies to its bases, and its aircraft support units grow to fill the need while the human has to ship in more from somewhere else (from a limited supply). In every game I have played the AI has cheats in order to make it competitive. Is this not a "gamey" exploit?

[JudgeDredd]

There are two very important points being made in various posts here though...
[ol][*]Without AI, the wargaming industry could suffer a devastating nose dive towards closure of many companies[*]With PBEM only games, development costs could be slashed or more features added[/ol] This thread is going the way of many.

As someone else suggested, can it not be left that some people prefer playing PBEM and others play AI?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

There are two very important points being made in various posts here though...
[ol][*]Without AI, the wargaming industry could suffer a devastating nose dive towards closure of many companies[*]With PBEM only games, development costs could be slashed or more features added[/ol] This thread is going the way of many.

As someone else suggested, can it not be left that some people prefer playing PBEM and others play AI?

It would Judge if some people weren't so immature that they feel compelled to put others down for their choice and publicly belittle them based on some deluded sense of superiority. Obnoxious idiots will almost always elicit responses from those insulted by them. That is a fact of human nature I don't think any of us can change.

[JudgeDredd]

I knwo Hans...just thought I'd try [:D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
It would Judge if some people weren't so immature that they feel compelled to put others down for their choice and publicly belittle them based on some deluded sense of superiority. Obnoxious idiots will almost always elicit responses from those insulted by them. That is a fact of human nature I don't think any of us can change.

You got the order of things wrong Hans. It was you, obnoxious anti-PBEMers who started this thread, asking for justification that you do the "right thing". The opening post is by the guy who does not play PBEM, never played PBEM, plays only the AI, and wants people to pat him on the back and say "it's OK, you're doing the right thing".

Then the second poster chimes in with "his reasons why he hates PBEM"... check the opening posts Hans.

I am sorry but if you post things like these on a wargaming board - wargaming being inherently human vs human activity - you're certain to get some responses flaming and ridiculing your position. I provided that - flaming and ridiculing - as my service to the community, free of charge.

Other than that, do what you want in the privacy of your own PC. You can burn your entire game collection if you want. Enjoy yourself. But once you ask for justification and encouragement for something that stupid on a public forum, be prepared to get some flaming responses.

Incidentally, I think it is telling that people who play vs other humans don't need and don't ask for justification by their peers "please tell me I am doing the right thing". We know we do the right thing and play the game the way it's meant to be played. Anti-PBEMers are probably a little insecure and they need justification from time to time [:D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

Check out this post on WG board. It's relevant to this discussion. I logged in to WG this morning and found it by chance (it wasn't intentional):
 
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.asp?m=264177&go=last
 
So much for PBEM being frustrating. AI is far more frustrating for people wanting to have a real good game. As I said, I'd much rather deal with human-related frustrations than with machine-genetared ones.
 

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I am sorry but if you post things like these on a wargaming board - wargaming being inherently human vs human activity - you're certain to get some responses flaming and ridiculing your position. I provided that - flaming and ridiculing - as my service to the community, free of charge.

Yeah, and you're good at it too [;)]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
We know we do the right thing and play the game the way it's meant to be played.

Against the AI ?

<ducks>

Seriously : I can appreciate both "methods" of playing computer wargames - to those who've never played PBEM I can only say : what have you got to lose by trying it just once ? If you still don't like it, you've lost nothing - but if by chance you find out you do, there's a whole new world opening for you right there.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Check out this post on WG board. It's relevant to this discussion. I logged in to WG this morning and found it by chance (it wasn't intentional):

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.asp?m=264177&go=last

Somebody should have told that guy all the things they're telling him right now before he bought it. To recap :

Battleground games - and this includes Panzer Campaigns and ACW have a decent AI on the defence, but a laughable one on the offensive - particularly in the bigger scenarios - that's why a lot of people play them PBEM exclusively.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Against the AI ?

Some games are fine vs the AI - COTA/HTTR series for example, becuase AI takes care of lot anyway, by design. However even those games are more fun vs human.

Some games are SO COMPLEX I find it totally ridicolous that people even have the nerve to ask for the challenging AI. WITP and EiA being the prime example. I mean hello! - don't you notice that the game is so incredibly complex it would take IBM 50.000 engineer years and Himalaya of dollars to build a challenging AI for that? Plus it would probably need NASA hardware to run. That's how things are. No, they either ask for "better AI" or are happy to play lemming level AI thinking they do the right thing. Well fine, but they better not talk about that in public [;)]

[Prince of Eckmühl]

A good AI is one that fights kinda like the real-deal, one that uses linear-tactics in an ACW battle, for instance. A bad one cheats. It has bigger bullets or faster chariots than those belonging to the human player. Representatives from the developer, publisher and/or fanbois will frequently assert that no such cheats exist, but the discerning eye says otherwise. What the very best of them lacks is creativity, the ability to adjust to the terrain and situation once Plan A has failed. And I'm not just referencing "gamey" tactics on the part of the human, but rather the capacity of a human to get the AI down and stomp the hell out of it, once its routines have become evident.

There's a part of me that really wishes that computer wargames had no AI at all. I say this because I believe that solo-only hurts computer wargaming. It encourages the introverts among us to become even more so, and the community continues to contract in size and age-demographic. Why play against a human when you risk failure and humiliation at someone else's hands? Solo-play is much safer, in that sense, and there's always "somebody" around who's interested in your game.

It's also worth noting that computer wargaming continues to be dominated by AI-only play, while online multiplayer-gaming in general is fluorishing and returning tidy profits to developers and publishers who can get folks interested in subscriptions. A couple of years back a developer-friend asked me if I thought his wargame would fly if they could get it server-based, subscription-only. I thought about it for a moment, sighed, and told him to forget it. I went on to explain that eighty or ninety-percent of the guys that I know would never dream of playing a game online against a human. They'd bitch about the expense and the hazards of internet gaming. And, besides, they might get beat. He laughed, agreed, and said "good night," good night, indeed.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[BAL]

Battleground games - and this includes Panzer Campaigns and ACW have a decent AI on the defence, but a laughable one on the offensive - particularly in the bigger scenarios - that's why a lot of people play them PBEM exclusively.

I wouldn't entirely agree with this. Recent updates to the Panzer Campaings, for instance, have improved the AI on the offense to a certain extent. I can't quantify it for you but I have noticed that it does perform better. But, generally speaking in these series you mention, the AI does perform best in mid to smaller sized scenarios & on the defense.

Seriously : I can appreciate both "methods" of playing computer wargames - to those who've never played PBEM I can only say : what have you got to lose by trying it just once ? If you still don't like it, you've lost nothing - but if by chance you find out you do, there's a whole new world opening for you right there.

Agree completely. There's some good opponent-finder sites that have a good group of reliable, competent players. I would recommend The Blitz. Covers a lot of different games from different publishers including Matrix games.

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

1. A first class opponet is the one who is there to play against you when the whim to play settles upon you. AI wins hands down!

2. A first class opponet is one who won't ruin your game experience by engaging in some idiotic "gamey" exploit of the mechanics. Again, AI wins hands down!

3. A first class opponent is one who is ready to quict when your are and not a minute before. AI wins hands down

4. A first class opponent6 doesn't keep you waiting 3 weeks to play your next turn because they are too busy to be bothered to honor their committment to you. Once again, the AI wins hands down.

The only thing human opponets do better than AIs is provide challenge. Now, this is certainly enough to make some choose them over AIs, but it is by no means a justification for the deluded sense of superiority displayed by so many in these forums.

Dude I find your arguments downright ridicolous. So the AI is always available and that makes it the "first class opponent"??? That's exactly my hamster argument I used in one of the previous posts in this thread (go search I can't be bothered to quote myself).

So my hamster is always there when I need a game of chess and I guess by extension of your logic it makes the funny little animal a "first class chess opponent"? Better than Kasparov? Hell that annoying Kasparov guy might make me wait for days, no weeks, to schedule a match vs him! He sucks! Hamster rules!

No, the human is always the first class opponent, always, except when measured against other (better, smarter, more experienced) human. When compared vs the AI in wargames human is always the first class. That's what games are made for, to measure your skill vs other people.

Yes of course playing humans means some compromises have to be made, you'll have to - oh the horror - wait for your opponent's turns, deal with misunderstandings, solve the gamey situations, deal with foreign languages etc. However, in my many many thousands of PBEM hours I never had any serious problems. I certainly had FAR less frustrating experiences than when playing the brain dead AI. I find dealing with human-related problems (waiting, quitters, etc.) way WAY less frustrating than dealing with the brain dead digital hamster AI.

I'd rather wait 3 weeks for my opponent to get back from the vacation than waste my life playing the (literally) brain dead non entity. Besides, most of my opponents are also virtual buddies, so we, you know, like, TALK in mails, discuss things and generally have a good time. Even a time spent away from the game is not entirely wasted. With AI, even the time spent playing is basically wasted, in interaction with the.... nothingness.....

Lol it is after a post like this from Oleg I am sure he wears a WHITE HOOD and CAPE from time to time, and does marches down the town hall street. You know those characters are never going to win their positions either. They do a lot of QQing for their TYPES.

[Zap]

Oleg, just to clear up one thing. I never said anything in my post demeaning PBEM players.

You won't find a post of mine on this board where I've been disrepectful or demeaning. I am generally supportive and friendly.


What I don't get are your responses?

It's just that I find you "I play AI and want justification for that" guys simply laughable

The point when it's no longer "fine" is when you post on the web board asking other chess players to *justify* your choice of playing vs your hamster

you're certain to get some responses flaming and ridiculing your position.

Okay just for argument sake let me concede. your points.
Now that you have emptied your quiver of arrows what was it that you hoped to accomplish?


If I'm laughable, uninteresting or ridiculus it won't take long and the others will just ignore me.



But you could have responded in a more productive way.

Heres a couple of good posts:

Junk2drive
I started playing computer games as a diversion from TV and to unwind after a stressful workday. I avoided PBEM as I had no desire to climb ladders or structure my free time around other people's schedules. IOW I like to play when the mood strikes and not out of guilt that someone is waiting for a turn from me.

A few years ago I was playtesting for a designer that requested that I try one design by PBEM as the AI couldn't handle the situation at hand. I took the plunge with someone on a forum that seemed to share my style and thinking. We have been PBEM buddies ever since. I had the fortune of finding another player with similar attributes and only ended our games when I burned out on his game of choice. We still keep in touch though.

The trick seems to be to watch the forums for people who seem normal and polite. You should be able to find the people that only play for fun and don't take life and gaming too seriously.

The downsides are, real life tends to get in the way, timezone differences can limit the exchange rate, taking on too many games at a time, watching the opponent's turn replay can take too long, etc

I've cut back on my PBEM games now, and enjoy playing the AI between emails.


Rooster
I've found that if you find opponets at a place where there's a ladder, you're going to end up playing people who just want to pad their record with an easy win against a PBEM newbie - though some will be kind enough to give you some pointers.

If you can find somebody you like/trust who just wants the experience of playing a human, you'll be alright.

[Oleg Mastruko]

One thing you can accuse me of was that I was brutally honest with you guys. Yes, playing the AI is a waste of time in 70-80% of wargames and/or 70-80% of wargame scenarios/situations. Yes, in many wargames' AI is no more capable than a hamster and it will remain so, for a foreseeable future. Yes complaining that the AI is weak is a waste of time (go play humans). Yes, I think it's kinda funny to ask encouragement for *avoiding* playing with humans, on wargaming forum, since wargaming is essentially human-vs-human activity since ancient times (or at least since first chess game was played in Persia many centuries ago).
&nbsp;
So, you think I could have said all that in a more politically correct way? Perhaps, but I don't care for pol. correctness anyway [:D]

[Zap]

Oleg you said
I was (brutally) honest with you guys. Okay, I like you to be honest too.

Brutally- that part is foriegn to my character type. Brutally, used by you comes out as, lets just say "rude".

[tevans6220]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Another point to mention here is the multiplayers and PBEMers of WARGAMES owe all the solo players a debt of gratitude for buying products that the multiplayers and PBEMers enjoy. You let Matrixgames make games that are just multiplayer and PBEM only WITHOUT an AI and watch how long they remain in business. Us solo players can live without the multiplayers and PBEMers and game companies can survive without making games multiplayer or PBEM (GalCiv 2 and Stardock anyone?   ) since the multiplayer community is very small in all catagories of gaming except for MMMORPG's and MMO's which require one to play in strictly a multiplayer online environment. So you gotta love someone like Oleg who thinks his way of gaming is the perfect way of gaming and that solo play is for the "lesser" mentality of gamers. Plus when you run into people like Oleg with that type of attitude you certainly don't want to play a game with them. He most likely probably cheats.

I agree 100%. To me the advantage of computer wargaming is not the PBEM or PvP capability but a challenging (hopefully) computer opponent to play against. If I had the time or inclination to play against someone else, I would rather play a boardgame. Without AI and a way to play solo computer wargaming wouldn't be of any entertainment value for me. There are relatively few computer wargames that are designed from the bottom up with only PBEM or multiplayer in mind. The multiplayer and PBEM aspects of most games are only a bonus. Even a majority of board wargames come with solo rules. So while those that actually do PBEM or PvP seem to think it's the only way to play they are definately in the minority.

[tevans6220]

A thought just occured to me regarding this PBEM AI argument. Just because you play against a human instead of an AI doesn't necessarily raise the scale on the intelligence factor. There are some AI's that show more intelligence than any person. At least that's the way it is in my neighborhood.

[DD696]

It is always very interesting how the more agressive PBEM types think they have to belittle everyone else. I think that they are so desperate to actually play a game that they have far too much time on their hands and constantly harrass those who would like to discuss the AI aspects of a game or why they like to play against the AI. Back in school they would be known as the schoolyard bullies. All an AI player has to do in some of these forums is to simply state that they do play the AI and then they are told why they should/must PBEM time after time after time after time. It took awhile but I finally got at least one player to acknowledge that I have the right to play a game as I choose - almost. Now he says that I should never PBEM. They certainly are a touchy lot.

Why they think they know best about how I should live my life is simply amazing, is it not? Awfully presumptive of them.

[HansBolter]

Please disregard....not worth it.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Please disregard....not worth it.

Whoops - I read your original post, typed a response and was about to post it - here goes anyway :

Eh, if I may add my $.05 here : I’ve known (in the ‘Net sense) Mr. Mastruko for about a decade now - “brutally direct” is a good description of his posting style and if you’re sensitive about wording niceties you might even call it “rude”, but linking his posting style to political stuff based on where he hails from – in other words : his ethnicity – is also far from polite. Pot – kettle and all that.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx