WAW update and notes

Advanced Tactics is a versatile turn-based strategy system that gives gamers the chance to wage almost any battle in any time period. The initial release focuses on World War II and includes a number of historical scenarios as well as a full editor! This forum supports both the original Advanced Tactics and the new and improved Advanced Tactics: Gold Edition.

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xBoroNx
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by xBoroNx »

I've done a small WAW-mod too, testing it now in a pbem with freeboy :).
If everything works as intended in this testgame i will upload the scenario. Probably there are somewhere errors in though and some more finetuning is needed.

Here is the readme about my current changes:
-Yamato battleships for Japan if they research lvl 4 ships. Slightly stronger than Battleships IV and artillery range 2
-Research costs increased, all lvl 1 groups need 120 or 160, lvl 2 240 or 320 and lvl 3 360 or 480.
Staff needs 240, 480 and 720 pp.
-Cruiser -25% damage vs. aircraft
-kayuschas have now no carry capacity and weaker attack, but cost only 1000
-T-34 for soviets added. A slightly weaker medium tank which only costs 1500 though
-King Tiger for germans added. About 25% better than a heavy tank IV, but needs more supply and slower. Needs armor 4 research

- Reworked increasing production and factories:
There are now 4 factory types with production of 2, 4, 8 and 16k. Cost for all of them is 20xtheir production, so 80, 160, 320 and 640 pp. 15x their production from vanilla seemed a bit too low to me.
Production increases are now seperately for each nation. The universal +25% in 1942 and +50% in 1943 are gone. Instead every nation gets free powerpoints via events, enough to roughly simulate the historic production increases. But for the allies those increases are a bit lower than historical to hopefully keep the game somewhat balanced.
As source for the data i used the charts on pages 54e,108e and 109e of the war diary of the OKW by Percy Schramm.
Those boni are granted:
1940:
West 600 pp, 100 each month from july to december. Can be converted via engineers building factories into 15k additional production. But you can also spend them on research instead if you think that is more useful. I recommend spending those pp on production though.
1942:
Soviets 960 pp, 80 each month = (up to) 24k additional production.
Japan 240 pp, 20 each month = 6k additional production
From june 1942 on production efficiency for München doubles, so the germans can spend 8000 production points on SS units from then on. This is because historically the germans started to greatly increase the number of Waffen-SS-divisions from 1942 on.
1943:
Germans 960 pp, 80 each month = 24k additional production
Usa (west) 6000 pp, 1000 each month from july to december = 150k additional production

-China got a second cheap troop type, militia. They are even weaker than conscripts and horrible, but they are cheap. They can be built in the safe hinterlands in 2 special factories that only produce supply for China and those militias. So China can use their Manpower. This hopefully leads to a somewhat historic outcome so that in this theater a stalemate is likely.
-Tweaked forts a bit. The small forts have only 400 structure points now and 40 structure points autorepair, but only cost 1 pp and 40 ep. The large forts have 2000 structure points and 200 structure points autorepair, but kept their cost of 5 pp and 300 ep.
So the small forts are basically field fortifications now whereas the big forts are "lines" like the Westwall or the Maginot Line.
-Germany starts with staff level 2 researched. You have to upgrade your existing staff though. This is to reflect the better german leadership in the early years of the war. In the polish campaign the germans have still been rather conservative though and it needed a lot of futile internal struggles in the german leadership. But eventually the brilliant german leaders like Manstein and Guderian managed to convince Hitler to accept their views and Mansteins plan for Fall Gelb.
It was not a complete success however because Hitler, maybe because he was a very conservative supreme commander, maybe because of political reasons, stopped the panzers in front of Dunkirch.
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freeboy
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by freeboy »

Not sure why the t34 is weaker? seems it should be a armor med tank level 3 that the reds start 1940 with.. now that would hurt the nasties! no worries awaiting your turn 
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xBoroNx
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by xBoroNx »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Not sure why the t34 is weaker? seems it should be a armor med tank level 3 that the reds start 1940 with.. now that would hurt the nasties! no worries awaiting your turn
Hm the T-34 scales a bit bad with the current tanks in AT imho.

I'd say that if you assume that a panzer III and early panzer IV would be a light tank, lvl 3-4, then you could say the panzer IV F2-H is rougly a medium tank lvl 1-2 and panther then lvl 3-4.
The standard T-34 is in between a late panzer III and the panzer IV F2-H.

Eventually i will make an oob with nationspecific units, but that takes a long while. So as a quick+dirty solution i made the T-34 mainly extremely cheap.
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freeboy
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by freeboy »

right.. sounds about what you would think, with the t34  1942 models and the 34-85 being med t level 3 4 .. they should be cheaper historically..
If we are shooting, pun intended for historical accuracy.. then german tank units are stronger per sft, and reds get more sft
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SMK-at-work
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by SMK-at-work »

all that effort and you still let the French evacuate the Maginot line?[:(]
 
IMO you missed the things that REALLY matter.
 
AFAIK staff levels don't affect command ability do they?  they seem to jsut affect eth defence value of het staff in combat?
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xBoroNx
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by xBoroNx »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

all that effort and you still let the French evacuate the Maginot line?[:(]

IMO you missed the things that REALLY matter.
Hm you are correct, the maginot line issue should be solved too.
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Barthheart
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by Barthheart »

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

all that effort and you still let the French evacuate the Maginot line?[:(]

IMO you missed the things that REALLY matter.
Hm you are correct, the maginot line issue should be solved too.

I'm not so sure about this. If you want to hamstring the player the way the French did their military then yes freeze them. But to allow the player to try something other than a "losing ploicy" thenI'd say no. Maybe make it an option - Historical French Political Realities
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Twotribes
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by Twotribes »

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

all that effort and you still let the French evacuate the Maginot line?[:(]

IMO you missed the things that REALLY matter.
Hm you are correct, the maginot line issue should be solved too.

I'm not so sure about this. If you want to hamstring the player the way the French did their military then yes freeze them. But to allow the player to try something other than a "losing ploicy" thenI'd say no. Maybe make it an option - Historical French Political Realities

How about the fact the german player is "hamstrung" by the fact he can not change to total war production? In fact the scenario never allows it to happen at all.
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xBoroNx
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by xBoroNx »

ORIGINAL: Barthheart
I'm not so sure about this. If you want to hamstring the player the way the French did their military then yes freeze them. But to allow the player to try something other than a "losing ploicy" thenI'd say no. Maybe make it an option - Historical French Political Realities
Retreating from maginot should of course still be allowed. But the german should be allowed to attack France immediately then without losing his blitz card maybe. Maybe it would be better to remove the blitz card entirely and solve it differently. But it would need a major reworking of Tom's coding then. I share Tom's opinion he once stated somewhere here on the board, changing the events of someone else in AT seems almost tougher than making your own events. So so far i mainly expanded the scenario but did not change any important event code. I am still rather unused to the AT event code. I eventually get my events to work, but my eventwriting is much less elegant than Tom's. For 1 line Tom uses i need 3-4 if i do it myself [8|]
xBoroNx
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by xBoroNx »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

How about the fact the german player is "hamstrung" by the fact he can not change to total war production? In fact the scenario never allows it to happen at all.
The german player imho can already do this in any of the WAW's from Tom by deciding to spend production on building factories instead of troops. If the german player builds a couple of factories in 1941 he starts to earn the benefits in 42, so it imho nicely reflects total war production.
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by SMK-at-work »

ORIGINAL: Barthheart
ORIGINAL: xBoroNx
ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

all that effort and you still let the French evacuate the Maginot line?[:(]
Hm you are correct, the maginot line issue should be solved too.

I'm not so sure about this. If you want to hamstring the player the way the French did their military then yes freeze them. But to allow the player to try something other than a "losing ploicy" thenI'd say no. Maybe make it an option - Historical French Political Realities

If you're going to have non-historical French policies then IMO they need to be balanced by a cost or by non-historical German policies too.

And the historical policies should be hte default IMO - the non-historical ones shuold have to be selected.

In regard to the French there's 2 options - evacuate teh wall, or build it to the sea (but not both)

both should come with a MASSIVE cost - building to the sea would simply cost a fortune - so less spending on other defence - I'd suggest remove all French armour and aircraft SFT's asa minimum! It would have to be an option selected at the start of the game.

Evacuating the wall is something that should be chosen in the game.

But think what it involves - withdrawing thousands of troops and trying to retrain them for "field" formations instead of as garrisons, dismounting hte artillery and finding field mounts for them, finding billets, training grounds, etc. IMO the minimum requirement should be 100PP (literally for the political costs involved - there would have been hell to pay!) and all troops evacuated take -100 readiness, because they were not equipped or trained to be field troops.

It should have no effect on the western blitz card.
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SMK-at-work
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by SMK-at-work »

Forgot to add a possible non-historic German option - earlier mobilisation of war industries - something like lowering the cost of supply - ideally something like 2 supply for 3 points would be good - 1.5 pts each - can the system handle fractional costs??  Or maybe lowered PP's - 400 instead of 500?
 
Of course increased preparedness for war can be applied to anyone......hell why not start the game at 3000BC.....[:D][;)]
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Barthheart
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by Barthheart »

All sounds great... when can we expect your mod?[8D]
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
SMK-at-work
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by SMK-at-work »

When you can deliver ice for my G&T's in Hell - I'm the ideas man!! [:D]
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Barthheart
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by Barthheart »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

When you can deliver ice for my G&T's in Hell - I'm the ideas man!! [:D]

[:D] Switch to a Real Man's drink, Vodka Martini, and you have a deal![:D]
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
SMK-at-work
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by SMK-at-work »

My name isn't Vodka Martini [:'(], and there is no drink that is more of a real man's drink than that which travelled the British Empire...chin chin old chap[8D]
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freeboy
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by freeboy »

Just a note xbx is doing a mod we are testing.. lots of changes in the production side.. I like the idea of German total war, but that is also going to come at a political cost, as would moving from the mag line in france.. all easily, cough, done with the events. I would say that a huge US response would be appropriate if German somehow is seen as having hte ability to overproduce in 1940 from historical...
So, Russia too, remember they had a large air force and some quality planes in 1941, just TERRIBLE top down leadership, can you say "thank you uncle Joeseph? " So there could be events for super rebuilt command Stalin is not crazy and does not kill 30 millian russains and many generals !
No German surprise and noreussian forward deployments and they start at the beginning in Russia, and have to choose to go forward into poland and the Baltic states, at the consiquence of reduced western aid when and if Germany attacks.. etc etc.. if you want to let the non historical GENIE out of her/his proverbial bottle then lets look hard at strange POSSIBLE options.. Like what about Brazil being oin the war as they really where ?
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by SMK-at-work »

A point about the Soviet airforce....it wasn't the leadership that was teh problem there ....sure they had a few thousand modern planes.......but htir pilots were distrustful of them.
 
They had recently re-equipped from I-15 biplanes to I-16 monoplane as the main fighter, then reintroduced the I-153 since the I-16's weer outmanouvred by Japanese fighters.
 
All of these aircraft were relatively benign to fly compared with the new generation of Yak's, Migs and LaGG's.  Regiments that had received the new aircraft often had not flown them at all in the 2-3 months they might have had them.  Resistance to new equipment was not new -the same problems had happened when the I-16's had been introduced - they were seen as having high landing speeds, difficult to handle, poor manouvreability, etc - it took a couple of years before they were accepted.
 
Stories of the LaGG-3 being nicknamed the "flying coffin" seem true enough, while that saying LaGG standing for "guaranteed varnished coffin" is probably apocryphal, and even the Yak-1 was considered dangerous when first introduced, while the Mig-3 had such a long nose in front of the cockpit that several were lost to gound and landing accidents due to poor forward visibility.  Even when designers and test pilots went around airfields showing off the capabilities of the new aircraft the "old" pilots were generally unconvinced.
 
I suspect that the death of a significant portion of the pre-war pilot force made eth introduction of the newer types somewhat easier!!  Albeit that it also meant that the new pilots flying them were inexperienced, and it took until late 1942 before someone sorted out modern tactics to allow them to make proper use of the reasonably competitive technology they now had.
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freeboy
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by freeboy »

Again, isn't that leadership issue in tha air force? Pilots need to be lead .. kill off the good leaders and you get a climate of no risk takers, seriously bad in the military.
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tweber
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RE: WAW update and notes

Post by tweber »

I have this pretty much complete now in my mod just need to finish the events to change the production center types. the following peoples are in the scenario now:
Germans
SS
Italians
Russians
Siberians
British
French
Canadians
South Africans
Indians
Australians
Dutch
Belgians
Danish
Norwegians
Polish
Chinese
Japanese
Greeks
Yugoslavians
Hungarians
Rumanians
Bulgarians
Finish
Free French
Vichy French
RSI Italians

The benefit of having lots of people types is that each people type can have it's own production and combat modifiers. The disadvantage of having a lot of people types is that each sftype in a counter is really the sftype and the people type. So, you could have a counter with 8 rifles, each of a different people type. This adds considerable player complexity. However, you could argue it also adds realism. Once again, it comes down to design preference and that is a personal decision. But, I might suggest that you combine people types that are on the same side and not likely to have different attributes (e.g., Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians). We actually went round and round of this when originally designing the Russia scenario.

Also, with events, you can change the people type of a location. So, instead of increasing SS production, you could increase the number of SS producing cities.
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