PzcK vs CMBB

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I order the 231 to withdraw to cover after a few shots from the SU76s. At end of T1, in SU76s target 2 P4s, I don’t think they fired yet. It is hard to catch it. At the beginning of T2, I am ordering the P4s to target the SU76s because they wouldn’t do it on their own. I think it is because of the poor to hit chance.

That's correct - units only auto-target if they have a "average" shot or better, to conserve ammo. You can always force them to take a poor shot.

Comments You can see the difference in individual spotting here. The 251s see 4 SU76s and 2 ACs. The P4s only see 2 SU76s. Right now this isn’t a big deal because the other SU76s are out of LOS of the P4 anyway. The other thing is that PCK only partially solves the borg spotting issue. Without simulating the command net, any unit that spots an enemy unit immediately transmits the info to all other units. They may not be able to target it, but they know its there immediately.

To be more precise, you as the company commander have the aggregate view and know the sum total of what all your units have spotted. If you move a unit to where it could see new enemy units, it still has to spot them. If they are in its blind spot, it won't know to automatically turn to see them just because another friendly unit across the battlefield knows they are there. As the commander, you can issue orders with that in mind, but each unit truly only knows what it can see.

There is definitely something different in either the spotting or AI reactions. My P4s have yet to spot an light tanks in PCK. in CMBB they spotted a couple in the first 10 seconds. It may be because the CMBB AI moved them right away and the PCK AI held back. What is something I'd like to point out again is that the CMBB TacAI has not gotten a single positive ID yet. The PCK TacAI, once it spots, has immediate ID, as well as knowing its status.

I agree we could make the fog of war more foggy. Which setting are you using for that in CMBB? Movement of vehicles does make a huge difference in terms of spotting.

Also,the event list is the best feature of the entire PC series. It lets you jump around to events all over the map. Half my time in a CMBB replay is spent looking for what is going on. In the end PCK gives you much better situational awareness.

Thanks, glad to hear it does help.

To answer erik's question, the frame by frame advance allows pretty fine tuned reviews. I have struggled with the controls in PCK. Look at CMBB's replsy feature. It is intuitive like a VCR.

Ok, I'll fire up CMBB later and give it a look.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
And Erik, no, I don't always play that way.  But in CMBB it is the only way to keep situational awareness of the entire battle.  So once a turn, I zoom out to see what is going on.

Ok, thanks - I was just wondering. That's not a great view to play in presently for Kharkov and I've been wondering how much work we should put into making it more so, given the other tools available to help with that. I see a lot of CM AAR shots from this POV so I was curious how common it is and if CM gamers are used to looking at things that way.

[Mobius]

I am just saying that most people seem to ignore the graphics when they get down to playing.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Mobius, I am clueless as to what you are saying. If you want to say only positive things about PCK, please mail the check to my house.

I think he was looking at that zoomed out view and thinking that graphics don't make much difference at that angle, but please ignore the kibbitzing, we're just interested to see how this goes. I have no idea what that line with shrubbery was about... [&:]

[thewood1]

They ignore it until it either becomes obvious or interferes with gameplay.

[koiosworks]

regarding trees...

CM used facing billboards. meaning it is a 2d tree that 'turns' to face the camera. it is a common way of doing things. the problem (which can't be seen in fixed screenshots) is that if you watch carefully, you can really see the trees rotating and turning as you pan the camera. personnally, i find this much more jarring (non immersive) than not.

so we use a slightly different type of billboard, a cross thatch that remains in place (like a tree should [;)]) but like any 2D object *billboard* in a 3D game, it is gonna look somewhat bad.

We do use a sprinkling of 3D models (like the tree Erik showed) but they are poly intensive and so we don't use them too much. I'd love to have all the trees full 3D but that would require us to have licensed a tool like Speedtree but that would have cost a huge hunk of the game's budget.

[thewood1]

I just ran turn two on CMBB and a couple of things of interest:
 
1)  One thing I have always liked about CMBB/AK over CMBO was the FOW on killing AFVs.  My last 251 was killed by a T70.  It too sometime for the crew to bail.  The T70 pumped three or four more rounds into the 251.  It too almost 40 seconds for the AI to realize the 251 was dead.  If it had exploded, the T70 would have stopped right away.
 
2) Now the bad side of the TacAI comes into play.  The same 251 was about 15m away from some cover in woods.  Off to its right, the killer T70 appears.  Most humans would have kept going full tilt and in 20m be out of sight.  The 251 stopped, threw it into reverse, and had about 70m to get to cover behind it.  This does not happen with great frequency, but it does happen.  The only way to stop this from ever happening is the PCK does it.  Shorter turns and more control by the human player.  I do like the TacAI making decisions for me whan I can't intervene, but sometimes it is annoying to start a tuen and 5 sec. in see it happen and not be able to do anything about it.  In PCK, the 251 would have just kept on going.  It may have still gotten killed, but it would have been a little more satisfying.
 
3)  Seeing a lot of deflections in the SU76 battle with the P4s.  But the SU76s are standing their ground.  I will have to check their morale and experience level.
 
4)  I rushed the infantry in the back left corner into the woods.  I exhausted them.  I will try the same rush in PCK and see what happens.
 
5)  The order delays for the Germans in CMBB are around 7 sec.  I managed to get a HMG out of command and its delay increased to 15 sec.  It should be only temporary because I am sending him over to another infantry platoon.
 
I'll run the PCK turn 2 next.
 

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
The other thing is that PCK only partially solves the borg spotting issue. Without simulating the command net, any unit that spots an enemy unit immediately transmits the info to all other units. They may not be able to target it, but they know its there immediately.

That's the philosophy difference. In PCK all the other units are the other commanders not subunits. And yes the other commanders all know because they are you. To sum it up the idea in PCK is that you are all the tank platoon commanders in CM you are all the tank TCs.

ORIGINAL: thewood1
What is something I'd like to point out again is that the CMBB TacAI has not gotten a single positive ID yet. The PCK TacAI, once it spots, has immediate ID, as well as knowing its status..

Do you mean German units? Because the T70 bugged out when it got positive ID. Which I think was a wrong thing to do.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: koiosworks

regarding trees...

CM used facing billboards. meaning it is a 2d tree that 'turns' to face the camera. it is a common way of doing things. the problem (which can't be seen in fixed screenshots) is that if you watch carefully, you can really see the trees rotating and turning as you pan the camera. personnally, i find this much more jarring (non immersive) than not.

so we use a slightly different type of billboard, a cross thatch that remains in place (like a tree should [;)]) but like any 2D object *billboard* in a 3D game, it is gonna look somewhat bad.

We do use a sprinkling of 3D models (like the tree Erik showed) but they are poly intensive and so we don't use them too much. I'd love to have all the trees full 3D but that would require us to have licensed a tool like Speedtree but that would have cost a huge hunk of the game's budget.

Whats funny is they are using the same method in CMSF and it looks hideous from above. I have to reiterate, the CM1 method works for me. I rarely see the 2D aspect of it.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: thewood1
The other thing is that PCK only partially solves the borg spotting issue. Without simulating the command net, any unit that spots an enemy unit immediately transmits the info to all other units. They may not be able to target it, but they know its there immediately.

That's the philosophy difference. In PCK all the other units are the other commanders not subunits. And yes the other commanders all know because they are you. To sum it up the idea in PCK is that you are all the tank platoon commanders in CM you are all the tank TCs.

ORIGINAL: thewood1
What is something I'd like to point out again is that the CMBB TacAI has not gotten a single positive ID yet. The PCK TacAI, once it spots, has immediate ID, as well as knowing its status..

Do you mean German units? Because the T70 bugged out when it got positive ID. Which I think was a wrong thing to do.

It fired one shot. If I were the Soviet commander, it was the right thing to do. It had no chance at the P4. Even hitting it at that range is iffy. It is better to get back to cover and find another way around.

Yes the Germans have seen AFV, ID'ed some as AC and light tanks, but nothing more positive. There were also sound contacts on one AFV that became a light tank after a few seconds.

[thewood1]

One thing to keep in mind with CMBB's TacAI is that it accounts for experience and morale.  A veteran, experience unit, even in an inferior AFV will stay for a while and try to take out or damage a superior foe.  Soviet AFVs 41/42/early 43 tended to be inexperienced and scared off easily.  That to me is part of battle.  You, as commander, say to an 18 year old TC with a T70, "Go there and hold that position."  He starts out, his driver sees a german medium tank with a long gun, and the TC says screw this, I'm headin back to my unit.  That is not only plausible, but read some of the unit histories of US tankers bugging out at the first sign of a german tank with a long gun after 43.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
It fired one shot. If I were the Soviet commander, it was the right thing to do. It had no chance at the P4. Even hitting it at that range is iffy. It is better to get back to cover and find another way around.

I agree - in the majority of cases I can imagine, if I were commanding that T-70 in PCK I would have given it a Withdraw order in the Reaction phase once I realized I'd spotted a Panzer IV. Better to use cover to get closer where that 45mm gun can do something.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
One thing to keep in mind with CMBB's TacAI is that it accounts for experience and morale.  A veteran, experience unit, even in an inferior AFV will stay for a while and try to take out or damage a superior foe.  Soviet AFVs 41/42/early 43 tended to be inexperienced and scared off easily.  That to me is part of battle.  You, as commander, say to an 18 year old TC with a T70, "Go there and hold that position."  He starts out, his driver sees a german medium tank with a long gun, and the TC says screw this, I'm headin back to my unit.  That is not only plausible, but read some of the unit histories of US tankers bugging out at the first sign of a german tank with a long gun after 43.

Good point, though the question also becomes does the 18 year old green TC really know what he's facing? It seems to me he'd be equally likely to bug out or to engage something he should bug out from, because he simply doesn't know better. I would think in some cases a veteran crew would be more likely to "bug out". In any case, the real difference is that the TacAI handles this in CM whereas we ask the player to use one of the Withdraw orders to make that decision. In PCK, a green platoon of five tanks that loses one has a decent chance to bug out withotut orders to, they just won't do it simply based on sighting the enemy.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
One thing to keep in mind with CMBB's TacAI is that it accounts for experience and morale.  A veteran, experience unit, even in an inferior AFV will stay for a while and try to take out or damage a superior foe.  Soviet AFVs 41/42/early 43 tended to be inexperienced and scared off easily.  That to me is part of battle.  You, as commander, say to an 18 year old TC with a T70, "Go there and hold that position."  He starts out, his driver sees a german medium tank with a long gun, and the TC says screw this, I'm headin back to my unit.  That is not only plausible, but read some of the unit histories of US tankers bugging out at the first sign of a german tank with a long gun after 43.

That is true.
But unexperience is not a one way street. The rookie may not know what to expect and stick in place when he shouldn't. In the Mcensk battles the BT-7 faced PZ3 in a hopeless match and none retreared in any of the battles.
At first PaK 35/36 faced KVs and T34s until the word spread that they were worthless against them After that the Germans became aware that their PaK gunner would abandon their guns when a KV or T34 charged them.

[thewood1]

The more valid question is which cover is closer?  If I am in my first battle, and my unit is in woods 100m behind me, but there is woods 75m in front of me, what do I do?  I still think backing up to get out of LOS is right.  But now it is 125m back and 50m front.  That starts to get a little trickier.  It can come down to how long would you be exposed backing up, how aggressive is the TC, do you know what is infront of you, are there any units supporting you, etc.  It is very complicated and no TacAI is going to be able to handle it perfectly.
 
But as devils advocate, a lot can happen in 40 sec.  Look at the 231 in my first CMBB turn.  It had a higher experience rating and morale.  I wished it would have backed up.  It said to itself, I have a 20mm cannon that can kill the SU76 firing at me, so I'll do stay.  What it didn't know is that an SU76 was sitting right behind that one and killed it.  In fact it was killed in 15 seconds.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Mobius
But unexperience is not a one way street. The rookie may not know what to expect and stick in place when he shouldn't. In the Mcensk battles the BT-7 faced PZ3 in a hopeless match and none retreared in any of the battles.
At first PaK 35/36 faced KVs and T34s until the word spread that they were worthless against them After that the Germans became aware that their PaK gunner would abandon their guns when a KV or T34 charged them.

Yep, that's the point I was trying to make too - which is why to some degree I think the morale system covers this pretty well. You don't know if a platoon will stay or flee, but you're much more likely to find out once they start taking casualties. Until then, they'll tend to try to follow orders based on the AARs I've read anyway.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: thewood1
One thing to keep in mind with CMBB's TacAI is that it accounts for experience and morale.  A veteran, experience unit, even in an inferior AFV will stay for a while and try to take out or damage a superior foe.  Soviet AFVs 41/42/early 43 tended to be inexperienced and scared off easily.  That to me is part of battle.  You, as commander, say to an 18 year old TC with a T70, "Go there and hold that position."  He starts out, his driver sees a german medium tank with a long gun, and the TC says screw this, I'm headin back to my unit.  That is not only plausible, but read some of the unit histories of US tankers bugging out at the first sign of a german tank with a long gun after 43.

That is true.
But unexperience is not a one way street. The rookie may not know what to expect and stick in place when he shouldn't. In the Mcensk battles the BT-7 faced PZ3 in a hopeless match and none retreared in any of the battles.
At first PaK 35/36 faced KVs and T34s until the word spread that they were worthless against them After that the Germans became aware that their PaK gunner would abandon their guns when a KV or T34 charged them.

That is why morale plays a factor too. A very high morale (becuase they don't know any better) will make em stick. There is also a random factor involved.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
The more valid question is which cover is closer?  If I am in my first battle, and my unit is in woods 100m behind me, but there is woods 75m in front of me, what do I do?  I still think backing up to get out of LOS is right.  But now it is 125m back and 50m front.  That starts to get a little trickier.  It can come down to how long would you be exposed backing up, how aggressive is the TC, do you know what is infront of you, are there any units supporting you, etc.  It is very complicated and no TacAI is going to be able to handle it perfectly.

Ageed, that's the question I was posing earlier too - once you have the AI making these decisions for the player it can result in some odd situations too.

But as devils advocate, a lot can happen in 40 sec.  Look at the 231 in my first CMBB turn.  It had a higher experience rating and morale.  I wished it would have backed up.  It said to itself, I have a 20mm cannon that can kill the SU76 firing at me, so I'll do stay.  What it didn't know is that an SU76 was sitting right behind that one and killed it.  In fact it was killed in 15 seconds.

True - I sometimes think we should have gone with 30 seconds, but part of the reason for the longer phases was to make them both short enough that relying on player decisions would not create too many problems and at the same time long enough to model the difficulties and delays involved in changing orders in the middle of a battle.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
That is why morale plays a factor too. A very high morale (becuase they don't know any better) will make em stick. There is also a random factor involved.

Ok, that makes sense.

[thewood1]

FOW plays a huge role in too.  If you misID a T-34 as a BT7, you'll have a bad day.  If you misID a BT7 as a T34, you'll pull back when you shouldn't have.
 
In the end if you give a unit good morale and good experience, they are not likely to bug out or misID.  If its a T70 against an IDed Tiger or Panther, they should bug out without me intervening.
 
Some people like to have total control and predictibility based on stats and thats fine.  I happen to like having a little of the chaos and confusion of the real battle thrown into my plans.