Was an invasion of India ever really possible?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
It comes down to logistics, the monsoon and time

Wasn't that an old Hoagy Carmichael song?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
That is incorrect.

I sometimes hope you would have more to add to the discussion. I guess I am still wrong.
[&:]

[Feinder]

Come on jwilkerson, don't mis-quote him.
 
He made the statement and expounded with rest of the paragraph.
 

That is not correct. By the time Japanese forces had consolidated their positions in Rangoon, British resistence and Chinese resistence along the upper Irrawaddy had significantly improved, forcing the Japanese to attempt to dig in for a long campaign. Logistically overextended, Japan's attempt to sustain a campaign forced their effort to attempt to construct a Burma railroad. Vulnerable to air attacks, the never-completed railroad became a quagmire of death, sponging up ALL of Japanese logistical capability beyond the Malay peninsula into the Indian Ocean, and effectively terminating prospects for an invasion in Ceylon or India. Even in the event, the Japanese offensive by land towards India stalled, owing to a combination of effective allied resistence and the complete absence of the means (logistically) to continue forward.  

 
You don't have to agree with what he has to say.  Mod or not, don't throw a dart and then deliberatly omit his argument.
 
-F-

[Nikademus]

I think Joe's point might have been that the Burma railroad, a long term project has little to do with a discussion regarding an early invasion against India from the sea....nor was the British position in NE India after the rout of early-mid 42 all that solid.

[Grotius]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Grotius
I'd like to see some rules like those that pertain to the USA -- Indian armed forces that appear when Japanese forces set foot in India, that sort of thing.

Be careful what you wish for! [:D][;)]

LoL, that sounds like good news! Woo!

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Mod or not, don't throw a dart and then deliberatly[sic] omit his argument.

Oh how I wish I could not be a MOD ...
[:D]

But you're right .. either way .. I should not lower myself to his level.
[&o]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Oh how I wish I could not be a MOD ...
[:D]

Be careful what you wish for...

But you're right .. either way .. I should not lower myself to his level.
[&o]

And what level is that? Posturing yourself as superior to someone because you don't like his style of posting?

[Adnan Meshuggi]

mike,

the question is, what is impossible?
You think, invading india is impossible.
If we take the situation in dec 1941, i agree.
BUT - if we have a game like witp, we could also say, that the japanese are ready to take out the brits to free troops in the pacific. This does not include 10 new divisions, 10 new supercarriers or 50 new destroyers. (That would be "risk")

But - and this should be possible - the player can try to conquer india and at last a chance to be sucsessfull should be in the game.

Or - the way a blocked non-player argue - we say the pacific war has to follow a certain way and if the midway-results do not happen 999 in 1000 times, the game is sh!t. But if the developer follow this way, they can play it alone. Playing the allies i have no time for such a boring and stupid slide-show.

So, with the game starts an december 1941 it should be possible for the japanese player to invade and conquer india - the price he has to pay should be higher as it is in the moment. But - knowing that the brits were hated by the indians, the support for the brits would be low. For the japanese in the game this should mean a 6 Month-delay of revolution, but after that, the indian get upset and kick british AND japanese a$$es all other india. So, an allied indian division turn hostile to the brits, if not at last twice the british troops are there. For the japanese it is worse. They need two times the troops, they need in china.

The brits maybe must withdraw all troops out of india and the usa needs a lot "friendly" troops for calm down. I know, the game can´t handle this situation. But this would be really interesting.
So - my idea for invading india is: 180 days after conquering a base it turns hostile and need twice the troops as in china.
The brits need the same level of troops as the japanese in china (they were occupators, no friends. If say 30% of the bases are conquered by japan, a chance of killing ghandi turns india in a deasaster for the brits (India enemy to britian an japan)

It make everything more complicated, but to say "they could not do it - so everything has to be manipulated" is a gamekiller.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

well - some certain posters (who never played the game) are really difficult. The best thing is the green button. So the mdhiel-free-zone is established.

what a wonderful world [:)]

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
And what level is that? Posturing yourself as superior to someone because you don't like his style of posting?

Exactly!

[Adnan Meshuggi]

who feels not like jwilkerson?
 
nobody?
 
couldn´t agree more to him in this case

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

mike,

the question is, what is impossible?
You think, invading india is impossible.
If we take the situation in dec 1941, i agree.
BUT - if we have a game like witp, we could also say, that the japanese are ready to take out the brits to free troops in the pacific. This does not include 10 new divisions, 10 new supercarriers or 50 new destroyers. (That would be "risk")

But - and this should be possible - the player can try to conquer india and at last a chance to be sucsessfull should be in the game.

I didn't say invading India was "impossible". I said a SUCCESSFULL invasion of India was impossible for the Japanese in World War Two (though not in the game, WITP). The game, as released, is full of nonsense, OB errors, and lack of historic demands on assets.

For instance, if you look closely at the Japanese Garrisons in the Pacific Islands in the game you will find double and tripple representations of the same historic units. Once as a Brigade or Regiment, and again as it's constituant pieces. Check it out.

In the real war, the IJN didn't have enough aircrews to man the aircraft it actually had on 12/07/41. Look for that in the game. And the 10,000,000 tons of shipping that the Japanese Empire was using to capacity on 12/06/41 dropped to 6,500,000 on 12/07/41 when the war began and all the foriegn shipping thay had under contract (close to 4,000,000 tons) quit (Most going over to the Allies, but about 500,000 tons being captured by the Japanese). Add that to the amount being sucked up (and never returned) by the IJN and the IJA and you will find that an economy that needed 10,000,000 tons of shipping to function in the summer of 1941 wound up with less than 4,000,000 tons to function with in the Spring of 1942.

Historically, the IJA was willing to go along with siezing and protecting the SRA, but only to sieze the resources necessaty to get back to it's primary mission of trying to defeat the Chinese and prepare for war with Russia. They expected to get a fair portion of the 10 divisions detailed for these conquests back, and not to have to come up with additional divisions for any of the IJN's pet schemes. The game not only allows you to be the IJN and the IJA and run the Japanese economy (historic nonsense); it allows the Japanese to over-run China (something they'd been trying to do since 1937 and having little to no success at since 1939) and as AAR's have shown, defeat the Soviet Union. Right! They had done SO WELL against the Russians in 1939 and 1941 during the border clashes that obviously the game is totally historical in this regard... More nonsense.

What I said was that IRL much of what is "possible" in the game wasn't. And to talk about what you can do in the game as if it were actually possible in reality is to insult the real-life Japanese commanders. They may have deluded themselves about many things..., but don't you think if it were REALLY POSSIBLE to finish off the China War in 6 months they would have done so in 1940 BEFORE tackling the rest of the world???? Are we to assume Japanese Leadership were a bunch of collossal morons? Or that the game's designers "got it wrong"? I'm going to go with choice #2.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

well - some certain posters (who never played the game) are really difficult. The best thing is the green button. So the mdhiel-free-zone is established.

what a wonderful world [:)]

Look - the whole idea here is to lay off the personal commentary and get back to discussing game-related subjects, okay? So knock it off, those of you looking for a convenient excuse to attack somebody.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
And what level is that? Posturing yourself as superior to someone because you don't like his style of posting?

Exactly!

Now, we're talkin' business! I'm done with the grumpies now. Time to get back to talking about games and being my usual, friendly self (in between episodes when I get one caught crossways).

Really, I don't think there's a lot of difference in the positions being posted on this subject, I just think it's a matter of emphasis. Everyone seems to realize the extreme difficulty Japan would have faced in mounting a major expedition against India with the idea of capturing and holding the place. Some think that the game should restrict Japanese resources to the degree of making such an adventure impossible against all but the most moronic of opponents (does the acronym AI ring a bell here?) and some think that a more "freewheeling" approach is more appropriate, allowing for a broader range of "what ifs" than others think should be possible.

I agree with the former position. I think the game is already too much like what those endorsing the latter one. I don't want AE to continue that, which I believe to be a design error.

But, who am I? If we disagree, there's not much that we can do about it but move on. Nuff said on this thread by me. I don't want to stir up any trouble.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi


So, with the game starts an december 1941 it should be possible for the japanese player to invade and conquer india - the price he has to pay should be higher as it is in the moment. But - knowing that the brits were hated by the indians, the support for the brits would be low. For the japanese in the game this should mean a 6 Month-delay of revolution, but after that, the indian get upset and kick british AND japanese a$$es all other india. So, an allied indian division turn hostile to the brits, if not at last twice the british troops are there.

Considering that the British were able to raise the largest all volunteer army the world had ever known in India (in August 1945 the Indian Army had expanded to over 2 million soldiers - all of them volunteers) and that the Indian Army always remained loyal, your scenario seems a little bit unrealistic.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

mike,

the question is, what is impossible?
You think, invading india is impossible.
If we take the situation in dec 1941, i agree.
BUT - if we have a game like witp, we could also say, that the japanese are ready to take out the brits to free troops in the pacific. This does not include 10 new divisions, 10 new supercarriers or 50 new destroyers. (That would be "risk")

But - and this should be possible - the player can try to conquer india and at last a chance to be sucsessfull should be in the game.

I didn't say invading India was "impossible". I said a SUCCESSFULL invasion of India was impossible for the Japanese in World War Two (though not in the game, WITP). The game, as released, is full of nonsense, OB errors, and lack of historic demands on assets.

For instance, if you look closely at the Japanese Garrisons in the Pacific Islands in the game you will find double and tripple representations of the same historic units. Once as a Brigade or Regiment, and again as it's constituant pieces. Check it out.

In the real war, the IJN didn't have enough aircrews to man the aircraft it actually had on 12/07/41. Look for that in the game. And the 10,000,000 tons of shipping that the Japanese Empire was using to capacity on 12/06/41 dropped to 6,500,000 on 12/07/41 when the war began and all the foriegn shipping thay had under contract (close to 4,000,000 tons) quit (Most going over to the Allies, but about 500,000 tons being captured by the Japanese). Add that to the amount being sucked up (and never returned) by the IJN and the IJA and you will find that an economy that needed 10,000,000 tons of shipping to function in the summer of 1941 wound up with less than 4,000,000 tons to function with in the Spring of 1942.

Historically, the IJA was willing to go along with siezing and protecting the SRA, but only to sieze the resources necessaty to get back to it's primary mission of trying to defeat the Chinese and prepare for war with Russia. They expected to get a fair portion of the 10 divisions detailed for these conquests back, and not to have to come up with additional divisions for any of the IJN's pet schemes. The game not only allows you to be the IJN and the IJA and run the Japanese economy (historic nonsense); it allows the Japanese to over-run China (something they'd been trying to do since 1937 and having little to no success at since 1939) and as AAR's have shown, defeat the Soviet Union. Right! They had done SO WELL against the Russians in 1939 and 1941 during the border clashes that obviously the game is totally historical in this regard... More nonsense.

What I said was that IRL much of what is "possible" in the game wasn't. And to talk about what you can do in the game as if it were actually possible in reality is to insult the real-life Japanese commanders. They may have deluded themselves about many things..., but don't you think if it were REALLY POSSIBLE to finish off the China War in 6 months they would have done so in 1940 BEFORE tackling the rest of the world???? Are we to assume Japanese Leadership were a bunch of collossal morons? Or that the game's designers "got it wrong"? I'm going to go with choice #2.

I agree 98% here. What we see in AARs and what people "can" achieve with the Japanese is far from what the Japanese Empire was able to do in real life. But much comes down to the players also. A couple of mistakes (perhaps only one or two) and you lose "places" like China, or Russia, or India or Australia. Would the Japanese side be reduced to something that is not able to achieve what people report in their AARs then it would probably go the other side around. US divisions marching through Tokyo in early 43. Even with the TOTALLY ahistoric, impossible to achieve in real life conquers we see in a couple of AARs (for sure the most AARs are not ones where we see China, India, Russia and Australia fall) in most cases, by the end of 44 or early 45, the Allied are knocking on Japans door.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I agree 98% here. What we see in AARs and what people "can" achieve with the Japanese is far from what the Japanese Empire was able to do in real life. But much comes down to the players also. A couple of mistakes (perhaps only one or two) and you lose "places" like China, or Russia, or India or Australia. Would the Japanese side be reduced to something that is not able to achieve what people report in their AARs then it would probably go the other side around. US divisions marching through Tokyo in early 43. Even with the TOTALLY ahistoric, impossible to achieve in real life conquers we see in a couple of AARs (for sure the most AARs are not ones where we see China, India, Russia and Australia fall) in most cases, by the end of 44 or early 45, the Allied are knocking on Japans door.

Do you honestly believe the historic Chinese or Russian or British or American or Japanese leadership didn't make more than "a couple of mistakes" during WW II? It would take virtual collusion in the real world to create some of the events possible in the game. And I am not maintaining that all of the designers errors help only the Japanese. Some of what I've seen on the Allied side of AAR's is pretty far-fetched as well.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

well the question is, what thought the other 450 millions?

sure, all is about what-if, but the panic of the british leaders was real. And - knowing the facts in hindsight - for real.
If we speak about the hypotetic chance of conquering india, i would say "yes". And the fact (2 mio indian soldiers) mean nothing to this. How many indian soldiers would change sides (to the indian liberation army) if the indian leaders decide to kick out the brits?

after all, it is a what-if.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

well - some certain posters (who never played the game) are really difficult. The best thing is the green button. So the mdhiel-free-zone is established.

what a wonderful world [:)]

Look - the whole idea here is to lay off the personal commentary and get back to discussing game-related subjects, okay? So knock it off, those of you looking for a convenient excuse to attack somebody.

Well, you are right. But if you meet a person who is only interested in "how great am i"-bs, the honest opinion about such people (who never played this game in the last 4 years...) is that they are the lowest thing on earth.

They put their garbage in the game-threads about how superior the p40 was, that it killed 2 mio japanese fighters with no losses, or why at midway the americans with one single bomb should have sunk 300 japanese ships... this leads to some certain reactions.

Here, we speak about a possibility, with hindsight. And how this could affect the game. And nearly all people are able to discuss and respect the opinion of other posters... but some people - they even do not play the game - speak about the game and want to change it, so it suits to their ill attitude.

[pasternakski]

[well, I tried]