Yet in the end the results are what I wanted. The Atago can be sunk later for now I am fighting off offensives.
She will need a good refit in Japan to do anything honest. So I think I won the battle.
The only thing I can say is use your resources for what they are designed and those 4 little ships did what their makers in the British shipyards intended them to do. Fast, fast guns, fast torpedos, and accurate shooters who can close the distance before the big guns are drawn and unleash hell. I think it is working as intended.
Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Caltone
Dunno, feels a little off to me so far. Slanted towards the Allies. Has anyone posted any surface combat results where a Japanese force of equal or superior strength won the engagement?
I'm playing Japan vs AI for now and it hasn't happend for me yet. I've only played a few days into the GC and restarted many times. I would definately like to see some links that answer the question above.
I don't know. But here is a good example for you on equal strength actually the Brits should have laid them all low but...
I posted this many days ago. About a bug and I ran it over and over and the same results. Maybe it is only the American ships that are Death Stars but I really don't want the patches to break the surface fights too much I like them as they are.
Yes I realize the Japanese wanted to disengage this fight I would also, I would love to have seen another Japanese BB instea of the carries.
I ran this 6 times just to see what would happen and pretty much the same results each time.
The KB just seemed to be in the right spot at the right time so I thought I would see for myself the Doomsday Allied Fleets at work... after 40 mins or so I was a bit bored. Not that I would do this in my game of course, mostly because simple fact is if you don't kill the CV's they will KILL YOU after the surface fight.
But anyway each fight is pretty much the same give or take a hit and I did score a hit on the Akagi 5 times with same results... nothing.
I suppose I should have wiped them out and been drinking tea by noon...
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 25,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi, Shell hits 1
BB Kongo, Shell hits 3
BB Haruna, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 2
CA Chokai
CA Nachi, Shell hits 1
CL Tama, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD Hagikaze
DD Arashio
DD Minegumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Ikazuchi
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Tatsukaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Kyukaze
Allied Ships
BB Revenge, Shell hits 6
BB Royal Sovereign, Shell hits 8
BB Ramilles, Shell hits 1
BB Resolution, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Dorsetshire, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Cornwall
CA Exeter, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Enterprise
CL Emerald, Shell hits 1
CL Dauntless, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 3
DD Isaac Sweers, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Hotspur, Shell hits 1
DD Nizam
Reduced visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 29,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 25,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages CV Kaga at 25,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Royal Sovereign at 25,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CA Exeter at 25,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Tatsukaze at 25,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Minegumo at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 22,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Kongo at 22,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages BB Haruna at 22,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 22,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Royal Sovereign at 22,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Cornwall at 22,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Nachi at 22,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Dorsetshire at 22,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CA Dorsetshire at 22,000 yards
CL Enterprise engages CA Nachi at 22,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Arashio at 22,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 18,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 18,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Royal Sovereign at 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 18,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 18,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Nachi at 18,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Nachi at 18,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CA Dorsetshire at 18,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages DD Yakaze at 18,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages BB Royal Sovereign at 18,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Minegumo at 18,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Nizam at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Kongo at 16,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 16,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Royal Sovereign at 16,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 16,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Exeter at 16,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Cornwall at 16,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Dauntless at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CL Tama at 16,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Dauntless at 16,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Emerald at 16,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Enterprise at 16,000 yards
DD Tatsukaze engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 16,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 13,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Resolution at 13,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 13,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Exeter at 13,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages BB Kongo at 13,000 yards
CL Tama engages CA Dorsetshire at 13,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Capetown at 13,000 yards
CA Exeter engages CA Chikuma at 13,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Chokai at 13,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Kyukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Hotspur at 13,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Minegumo at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Ramilles at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Exeter at 11,000 yards
CA Cornwall engages CL Tama at 11,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Nachi at 11,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Capetown at 11,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Capetown at 11,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Emerald at 11,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Kyukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Tatsukaze engages DD Nizam at 11,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Hotspur at 11,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Hotspur at 11,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Akatsuki at 11,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Minegumo at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Royal Sovereign at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 8,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CA Exeter at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CA Cornwall at 8,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Nachi at 8,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CL Tama at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Dauntless at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Capetown at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Enterprise at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Nizam at 8,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Nizam at 8,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Hotspur at 8,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Hagikaze at 8,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Hotspur at 8,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Hagikaze at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
DD Nizam engages CV Akagi at 13,000 yards
BB Revenge engages CV Zuikaku at 13,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages CV Shokaku at 13,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CV Kaga at 13,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CA Exeter at 13,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 13,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Chikuma at 13,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Dorsetshire at 13,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CA Chikuma at 13,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Chokai at 13,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Enterprise at 13,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Hotspur at 13,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Akatsuki at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 16,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages CV Akagi at 16,000 yards
BB Revenge engages CV Zuikaku at 16,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Royal Sovereign at 16,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 16,000 yards
CA Exeter engages CA Chokai at 16,000 yards
CL Tama engages CA Cornwall at 16,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CA Exeter at 16,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Capetown at 16,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CA Nachi at 16,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CL Tama at 16,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Enterprise at 16,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Ikazuchi at 16,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Yakaze at 16,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Ikazuchi at 16,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages DD Akatsuki at 16,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 20,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 20,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CV Zuikaku at 20,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages BB Kongo at 20,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Revenge at 20,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 20,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Kongo at 20,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Nachi at 20,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Capetown at 20,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CA Nachi at 20,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Chikuma at 20,000 yards
CL Enterprise engages CA Chikuma at 20,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Yakaze at 20,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages DD Arashio at 20,000 yards
Range increases to 24,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 24,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 24,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CV Kaga at 24,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Resolution at 24,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Cornwall at 24,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Enterprise at 24,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Enterprise at 24,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Dauntless at 24,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Nachi at 24,000 yards
CL Enterprise engages DD Kyukaze at 24,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Tatsukaze at 24,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages DD Yakaze at 24,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Ikazuchi at 24,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages DD Akatsuki at 24,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Arashio at 24,000 yards
Task forces break off...
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Caltone
Dunno, feels a little off to me so far. Slanted towards the Allies. Has anyone posted any surface combat results where a Japanese force of equal or superior strength won the engagement?
I'm playing Japan vs AI for now and it hasn't happend for me yet. I've only played a few days into the GC and restarted many times. I would definately like to see some links that answer the question above.
It's not a superior IJN force, not even an equal force. One IJN destroyer against 4 Allied cruisers and 3 destroyers... Clearly the results are slanted against the Allies [;)]
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 97,131, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
DD Isonami, Shell hits 12, on fire
Allied Ships
CA Australia
CA Canberra
CL Perth
CL Hobart
DD Stuart
DD Voyager
DD La Triomphant, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
Improved night sighting under 78% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 78% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Range closes to 26,000 yards...
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 22,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Getting, F.E. crosses the 'T'
DD Isonami engages DD La Triomphant at 1,000 yards
DD Isonami engages CL Perth at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Voyager at 2,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Voyager at 2,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Stuart at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...
[center]
Bigger boys stole my sig
Bigger boys stole my sig
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
And people demand change.
[:D]
It's the old adage about being careful what you ask for, because you just might get it.
Demanding change is fine, but I think most people were expecting a dime and two quarters, not that the smart-a** behind the counter would give them sixty pennies!
Semper Fi,
Craig
It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken aircraft.
Craig
It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken aircraft.
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Come to dark side, metric system is for you too! [:D]
Oh man the metric system is just too logical. Inches, feet, yards, miles. No real ryhme or reason to my system [:)]
" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
Joe Wilkerson even mentioned there was some concern as they went gold about the surface results. Not enough to stop the release but something they are looking at.
tm.asp?m=2197162&mpage=1&key=accuracy
Lots of threads turn up if you search for topics about surface combat results but none complaining the Allies are getting a raw deal.
Probably best at this point to keep monitoring results and see how this develops. I think it's close just a little one sided...
tm.asp?m=2197162&mpage=1&key=accuracy
Lots of threads turn up if you search for topics about surface combat results but none complaining the Allies are getting a raw deal.
Probably best at this point to keep monitoring results and see how this develops. I think it's close just a little one sided...
"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
Here's an example of a slightly undergunned Jap TF winning a battle:
Night Time Surface Combat, near Torokina at 108,130, Range 11,000 Yards
Allied aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses
Japanese Ships
BB Hiei
CL Kinu, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Tanikaze, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Shikinami, Shell hits 1
DD Ayanami, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Yugiri, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
Allied Ships
BB South Dakota, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Laffey, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Farenholt, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Lang, Shell hits 1
DD Stack, Shell hits 1
DD Hull, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
Night Time Surface Combat, near Torokina at 108,130, Range 11,000 Yards
Allied aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses
Japanese Ships
BB Hiei
CL Kinu, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Tanikaze, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Shikinami, Shell hits 1
DD Ayanami, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Yugiri, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
Allied Ships
BB South Dakota, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Laffey, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Farenholt, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Lang, Shell hits 1
DD Stack, Shell hits 1
DD Hull, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
Combat reports aren't very useful for study without the full battle report.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
Ok, here I have one, or better, I have 6, as it was a series of 6 engagements, 3 night and 3 daylight encounters of the same two TFs.
I sent the Kota Bharu Heavy Cover Force down to Borneo, to cover the Kuching landing, when a plane discoverd an allied taskforce not too far away.
So I sent the venerable Tanaka (yes, I put him in charge at turn 1) out to hunt them down.
Interception went great, there were in fact 6, in words SIX engagements, 3 each at night and at day.
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 62,79, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 8.........4 of those are 0.5" machine gun bullets/salvos, the rest are 4" hits
BB Haruna
CA Takao
CA Atago
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
DD Michishio
DD Arashio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 1.................................14cm non penetrating
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 3, and is sunk................ 1 x 36cm from Kongo
DD Parrott
DD Stewart
Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 10% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages BB Kongo at 1,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Paul Jones at 1,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Arashio at 1,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Paul Jones at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Takao at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Oshio at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna, Shell hits 1
CA Takao
CA Atago
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
DD Michishio, Shell hits 2
DD Arashio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 2.............................. 2 x non-penetrating 14cm hits
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Parrott
DD Stewart
Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 10% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Dockery, L.R. crosses the 'T'........................................................Wow, Tanaka got his T crossed
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Stewart at 1,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Michishio at 1,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Barker at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bulmer at 2,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 2
BB Haruna, Shell hits 9
CA Takao
CA Atago, Shell hits 2, heavy fires...............2 x penetrating 6" hits
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
DD Michishio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Arashio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 5, on fire................2 x non penetrating 14cm hits, 1 penetrating 20cm hit
DD Barker, Shell hits 1
DD Bulmer
DD Parrott, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Stewart
Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 10% moonlight: 5,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Dockery, L.R. crosses the 'T'----------------------------------------------------------------TWICE!!
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
DD Stewart engages BB Haruna at 1,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Michishio at 1,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Arashio at 1,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Michishio at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Stewart at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Arashio at 2,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Barker at 2,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Parrott at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Oshio at 2,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 2,000 yards
Tanaka, Raizo orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Takao at 7,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Michishio at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 9,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 9,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 9,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Takao at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 12,000 yards
Task forces break off...
Ok, conclusion from the night battle: The japanese BBs can´t hit the broadside of a barn. They were firing qite often, but faild to hit a thing, except for Kongos one hit in the first engagement (I expected to take some hits, having the T crossed and all, but once the BBs started shooting I realy expected the ship being fired upon to be blown away, I mean, at 1 to 2k yards?).
CAs hit rarely, DDs do ok
Until the target is on fire, everyone shoots on you if you are lit and hit rates go up dramaticly
Oh and torpedo hit rate was terrible. I didn´t count but pretty much every ship that has them, launched them with not a single hit to show
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 20,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna..........................................Apparently, Atago and Michishio are so damaged, they got split from the TF
CL Jintsu.............................................and the game engine put Takao and Arashio as escorts in.
DD Asashio.........................................I was a bit [X(] after the turn, when the CAs where nowhere to be found
DD Oshio............................................until I checked Cam Ranh Bay harbour. [:)]
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Stewart
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 18,000 yards
Japanese TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 23,000 yards........................................................Not sure why Tanaka would
Range increases to 28,000 yards........................................................want to disengage here
Range increases to 30,000 yards...
Japanese Surface Combat TF evades combat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 20,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 1
BB Haruna
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 3
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Stewart
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 20,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 18,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Bulmer at 16,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 16,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 8,000 yards
DD Stewart engages BB Kongo at 8,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages CL Jintsu at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Barker at 8,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Barker at 11,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Asashio at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 15,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Asashio at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 18,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Asashio at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 18,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 62,79, Range 23,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna, Shell hits 1
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Barker
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 2
DD Stewart, Shell hits 3
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 23,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 23,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Oshio at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 21,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 17,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 17,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Barker at 17,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Asashio at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 15,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Oshio at 15,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Asashio at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 14,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 14,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Bulmer at 14,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Barker at 14,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 11,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 11,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Asashio at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Stewart at 10,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 10,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 10,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Asashio at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...
Twice, the DDs (japanese and allied) opened fire at 18.000 yards and started to score at 15 to 17k, which seems a bit much to me.
During the display Kongo reported to be hit by a 3" shell at a range of 16.000 yards [X(][X(]
Besides of this "small-caliber"-long-range-fire and the fact that the BBs can´t hit a thing (remember, 5 shooting engagements and a whooping 1 hit from 2 BBs) I don´t have much to complain I guess, even if I would have thought when BBs and CAs slug it out with a single CL and a couple of DDs in broad daylight, the CL/DD TF would be blown out of the water, but well, s**t happens.
Oh, and I was a bit wondering that my 14cm shells would bounce of from Marbleheads armor, while her 6" shells would penetrate Atagos, but I don´t know enough about those ships to judge the viability of this.
(My land bases Nells took care of that problem later on [:D])
I sent the Kota Bharu Heavy Cover Force down to Borneo, to cover the Kuching landing, when a plane discoverd an allied taskforce not too far away.
So I sent the venerable Tanaka (yes, I put him in charge at turn 1) out to hunt them down.
Interception went great, there were in fact 6, in words SIX engagements, 3 each at night and at day.
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 62,79, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 8.........4 of those are 0.5" machine gun bullets/salvos, the rest are 4" hits
BB Haruna
CA Takao
CA Atago
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
DD Michishio
DD Arashio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 1.................................14cm non penetrating
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 3, and is sunk................ 1 x 36cm from Kongo
DD Parrott
DD Stewart
Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 10% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages BB Kongo at 1,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Paul Jones at 1,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Arashio at 1,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Paul Jones at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Takao at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Oshio at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna, Shell hits 1
CA Takao
CA Atago
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
DD Michishio, Shell hits 2
DD Arashio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 2.............................. 2 x non-penetrating 14cm hits
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Parrott
DD Stewart
Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 10% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Dockery, L.R. crosses the 'T'........................................................Wow, Tanaka got his T crossed
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Stewart at 1,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Michishio at 1,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Barker at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bulmer at 2,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 1,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 2
BB Haruna, Shell hits 9
CA Takao
CA Atago, Shell hits 2, heavy fires...............2 x penetrating 6" hits
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
DD Michishio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Arashio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 5, on fire................2 x non penetrating 14cm hits, 1 penetrating 20cm hit
DD Barker, Shell hits 1
DD Bulmer
DD Parrott, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Stewart
Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 10% moonlight: 5,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Dockery, L.R. crosses the 'T'----------------------------------------------------------------TWICE!!
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 1,000 yards
DD Stewart engages BB Haruna at 1,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Michishio at 1,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Arashio at 1,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Michishio at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Stewart at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Arashio at 2,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Barker at 2,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Parrott at 2,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Oshio at 2,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 2,000 yards
Tanaka, Raizo orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Takao at 7,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Michishio at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 9,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 9,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 9,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Takao at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
CA Atago engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 12,000 yards
Task forces break off...
Ok, conclusion from the night battle: The japanese BBs can´t hit the broadside of a barn. They were firing qite often, but faild to hit a thing, except for Kongos one hit in the first engagement (I expected to take some hits, having the T crossed and all, but once the BBs started shooting I realy expected the ship being fired upon to be blown away, I mean, at 1 to 2k yards?).
CAs hit rarely, DDs do ok
Until the target is on fire, everyone shoots on you if you are lit and hit rates go up dramaticly
Oh and torpedo hit rate was terrible. I didn´t count but pretty much every ship that has them, launched them with not a single hit to show
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 20,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna..........................................Apparently, Atago and Michishio are so damaged, they got split from the TF
CL Jintsu.............................................and the game engine put Takao and Arashio as escorts in.
DD Asashio.........................................I was a bit [X(] after the turn, when the CAs where nowhere to be found
DD Oshio............................................until I checked Cam Ranh Bay harbour. [:)]
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Stewart
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 18,000 yards
Japanese TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 23,000 yards........................................................Not sure why Tanaka would
Range increases to 28,000 yards........................................................want to disengage here
Range increases to 30,000 yards...
Japanese Surface Combat TF evades combat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 63,79, Range 20,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 1
BB Haruna
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 3
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Stewart
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 20,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 18,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Bulmer at 16,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 16,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 12,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 8,000 yards
DD Stewart engages BB Kongo at 8,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages CL Jintsu at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Barker at 8,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Barker at 11,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Asashio at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 15,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Asashio at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 18,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Asashio at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Barker at 18,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Cam Ranh Bay at 62,79, Range 23,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna, Shell hits 1
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio
Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Barker
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 2
DD Stewart, Shell hits 3
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 23,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 23,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Oshio at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 21,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 18,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 17,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Bulmer at 17,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Barker at 17,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Asashio at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 15,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Oshio at 15,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Asashio at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 14,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CL Marblehead at 14,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Bulmer at 14,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Barker at 14,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Stewart at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 11,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CL Marblehead at 11,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Asashio at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Stewart at 10,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CL Jintsu at 10,000 yards
DD Oshio engages DD Stewart at 10,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Asashio at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...
Twice, the DDs (japanese and allied) opened fire at 18.000 yards and started to score at 15 to 17k, which seems a bit much to me.
During the display Kongo reported to be hit by a 3" shell at a range of 16.000 yards [X(][X(]
Besides of this "small-caliber"-long-range-fire and the fact that the BBs can´t hit a thing (remember, 5 shooting engagements and a whooping 1 hit from 2 BBs) I don´t have much to complain I guess, even if I would have thought when BBs and CAs slug it out with a single CL and a couple of DDs in broad daylight, the CL/DD TF would be blown out of the water, but well, s**t happens.
Oh, and I was a bit wondering that my 14cm shells would bounce of from Marbleheads armor, while her 6" shells would penetrate Atagos, but I don´t know enough about those ships to judge the viability of this.
(My land bases Nells took care of that problem later on [:D])
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack
R. Hoenig, Germany
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack
R. Hoenig, Germany
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Caltone
Joe Wilkerson even mentioned there was some concern as they went gold about the surface results. Not enough to stop the release but something they are looking at.
tm.asp?m=2197162&mpage=1&key=accuracy
Lots of threads turn up if you search for topics about surface combat results but none complaining the Allies are getting a raw deal.
Probably best at this point to keep monitoring results and see how this develops. I think it's close just a little one sided...
Is that why you are afraid to send the first turn?[:D]
-
Yamato hugger
- Posts: 3791
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:38 am
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: gunnergoz
I'm reading about chaos, oddball results, unpredictable outcomes, nonsensical events...sounds like historic warfare to me!
Not when it happens every time.
-
Mark Weston
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:16 pm
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
ORIGINAL: gunnergoz
I'm reading about chaos, oddball results, unpredictable outcomes, nonsensical events...sounds like historic warfare to me!
Not when it happens every time.
Well of course it doesn't happen every time. People don't start forum threads when they see a perfectly average surface battle, and don't necessarily have any to hand in their current turns when the subject comes up. So firstly we have confirmation bias; a situation where extreme results are reported and discussed while average results are ignored.
Secondly, everyone who's read history knows that extreme results were pretty common. The results of battles like Savo Island - or Midway for that matter - were outrageously one-sided. Obviously we can't reject the reality of what happened, so instead we busy ourselves finding reasons as to why they happened that way and often we almost persuade ourselves that the outrageous result was inevitable. Whereas when a game generates an extreme result (especially when it's against us!) we're surprised and frustrated and our first response is to question the validity of the result rather than try to explain why it happened. Thus the forum posts about how the combat system is broken.
Most wargames I've played (in 25 years of playing them) are IMO horribly biased towards the average. I think that's because gamers like to be in control, which means wanting to get predictable results from their carefully planned attacks. Personally I'm loving what I've seen of AE so far, including all the variability and surprise in the surface combat model.
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Mark Weston
ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
ORIGINAL: gunnergoz
I'm reading about chaos, oddball results, unpredictable outcomes, nonsensical events...sounds like historic warfare to me!
Not when it happens every time.
Well of course it doesn't happen every time. People don't start forum threads when they see a perfectly average surface battle, and don't necessarily have any to hand in their current turns when the subject comes up. So firstly we have confirmation bias; a situation where extreme results are reported and discussed while average results are ignored.
Secondly, everyone who's read history knows that extreme results were pretty common. The results of battles like Savo Island - or Midway for that matter - were outrageously one-sided. Obviously we can't reject the reality of what happened, so instead we busy ourselves finding reasons as to why they happened that way and often we almost persuade ourselves that the outrageous result was inevitable. Whereas when a game generates an extreme result (especially when it's against us!) we're surprised and frustrated and our first response is to question the validity of the result rather than try to explain why it happened. Thus the forum posts about how the combat system is broken.
Most wargames I've played (in 25 years of playing them) are IMO horribly biased towards the average. I think that's because gamers like to be in control, which means wanting to get predictable results from their carefully planned attacks. Personally I'm loving what I've seen of AE so far, including all the variability and surprise in the surface combat model.
Very well said and couldn't agree more.
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
One of those outlying reuslts just happenned to me:
Night Time Surface Combat, near Munda at 110,137, Range 17,000 Yards
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
Japanese Ships (VADM Mikawa in command)
CA Myoko
CA Haguro, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 5 (0 sys, 0flt - mainly 5inch non penetrations)
CA Kumano, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage (sunk during the day)
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 4 (6 sys, 1 flt)
DD Akigumo, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage (sunk)
DD Kazegumo, Shell hits 7, heavy fires (sunk)
DD Makigumo, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 3, heavy fires (35sys,13flt,21eng)
DD Hamakaze, Shell hits 3, on fire (11sys,6flt,2eng)
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage (sunk)
Allied Ships
CA Astoria, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Helm
DD Ralph Talbot
Reduced sighting due to 28% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 28% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 29,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 17,000 yards
CA Astoria fires at CA Kumano at 17,000 yards (Astoria scored 2 hits on Kumano - both non-penetrating with 5inch - started small fire)
CA Astoria fires at CA Suzuya at 17,000 yards (miss)
CA Astoria fires at CA Haguro at 17,000 yards (miss)
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 12,000 yards (Astoria scores 1 hit with 8inch, Kumano scored twice with 8inch - allied radar shot off)
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 12,000 yards (Akigumo miss, Ralph Talbot scoring)
CA Haguro engages CA Astoria at 12,000 yards (Astoria takes 2 more 8inch, Haguro hit too starting fires)
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 12,000 yards (Kazegumo miss, Ralph Talbot scoring)
Range closes to 8,000 yards (lets get closer for torpedoes)
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 8,000 yards (Astoria scores few hits, Kumano responds with few hits too)
CA Haguro engages DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards (Haguro miss, Ralph Talbot scoring)
CA Astoria engages CA Haguro at 8,000 yards (Astoria scores few hits, Haguro miss)
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 8,000 yards (Jintsu miss, Astoria scoring 2 hits)
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards (Ralph Talbot scoring)
DD Hayashio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards (Ralph Talbot scoring)
Range closes to 6,000 yards (closer to see them or let them fire their torps?)
CA Kumano engages CA Astoria at 6,000 yards (Kumano takes beating with 8inch)
CA Suzuya engages DD Ralph Talbot at 6,000 yards (Suzuya miss)
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 6,000 yards (Jintsu miss, Astoria miss)
CA Astoria engages DD Hayashio at 6,000 yards (Astoria hits her hard)
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Kazegumo at 6,000 yards (R.T. scores)
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 6,000 yards (R.T. scores again)
Range increases to 9,000 yards (Time to disengage)
CA Kumano engages CA Astoria at 9,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Nowaki at 9,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Helm at 9,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 9,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Hayashio at 9,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 9,000 yards
DD Kazegumo engages DD Helm at 9,000 yards (in short Allied ships scored heavily while Japs got few more hits on Astoria)
Range increases to 14,000 yards (time to sing "Run rabbit, run")
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 14,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Helm at 14,000 yards
CA Myoko engages CA Astoria at 14,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Nowaki at 14,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 14,000 yards (same as above, only 2 japanese ships are not aflame at this state: Myoko and Hamakaze)
Range increases to 16,000 yards ("get out of there!" comes to my mind)
CA Haguro engages CA Astoria at 16,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 16,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Haguro at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 17,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 17,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Helm at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards (Allied destroyers scoring at this range with many hits)
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 19,000 yards
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Helm at 19,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CL Jintsu at 19,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 18,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 18,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Helm at 18,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 18,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Makigumo at 18,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 18,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 18,000 yards
Mikawa, G. orders Japanese TF to disengage (Mikawa orders to disengage, but those bluejackets must have been on steroids)
Range closes to 16,000 yards (skipped rest of the animation)
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 16,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Nowaki at 16,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 16,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 16,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Kazegumo at 16,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 15,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CA Astoria at 15,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Nowaki at 15,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Myoko at 14,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 14,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 14,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Helm at 14,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 14,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Helm at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Suzuya at 11,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 11,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Makigumo at 11,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards (OMG again that close?)
DD Makigumo sunk by DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CL Jintsu at 8,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 8,000 yards
Scanland, F. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 9,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 9,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 9,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Nowaki at 9,000 yards
CA Astoria engages DD Kazegumo at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Haguro at 15,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 15,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 15,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Hamakaze at 15,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 19,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Hamakaze at 19,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Hayashio at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 23,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Myoko at 23,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Helm at 23,000 yards
Range increases to 27,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 27,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Helm at 27,000 yards
Range increases to 30,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Helm at 30,000 yards
Range increases to 34,000 yards
Task forces break off...
To say, 2 CAs, 4 DDs for 1 CA (probably) is not a good trade. In night Naval battle I would bet for Japs going in with almost 4:1 superiority.
Astoria managed to stay majority of the battle outside of visibility and together with both destroyers fired highly accurate gunfire (even with radar shot off on Astoria) while the Japs were firing into complete darkness. [X(]
Night Time Surface Combat, near Munda at 110,137, Range 17,000 Yards
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
Japanese Ships (VADM Mikawa in command)
CA Myoko
CA Haguro, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 5 (0 sys, 0flt - mainly 5inch non penetrations)
CA Kumano, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage (sunk during the day)
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 4 (6 sys, 1 flt)
DD Akigumo, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage (sunk)
DD Kazegumo, Shell hits 7, heavy fires (sunk)
DD Makigumo, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 3, heavy fires (35sys,13flt,21eng)
DD Hamakaze, Shell hits 3, on fire (11sys,6flt,2eng)
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage (sunk)
Allied Ships
CA Astoria, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Helm
DD Ralph Talbot
Reduced sighting due to 28% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 28% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 29,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 17,000 yards
CA Astoria fires at CA Kumano at 17,000 yards (Astoria scored 2 hits on Kumano - both non-penetrating with 5inch - started small fire)
CA Astoria fires at CA Suzuya at 17,000 yards (miss)
CA Astoria fires at CA Haguro at 17,000 yards (miss)
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 12,000 yards (Astoria scores 1 hit with 8inch, Kumano scored twice with 8inch - allied radar shot off)
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 12,000 yards (Akigumo miss, Ralph Talbot scoring)
CA Haguro engages CA Astoria at 12,000 yards (Astoria takes 2 more 8inch, Haguro hit too starting fires)
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 12,000 yards (Kazegumo miss, Ralph Talbot scoring)
Range closes to 8,000 yards (lets get closer for torpedoes)
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 8,000 yards (Astoria scores few hits, Kumano responds with few hits too)
CA Haguro engages DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards (Haguro miss, Ralph Talbot scoring)
CA Astoria engages CA Haguro at 8,000 yards (Astoria scores few hits, Haguro miss)
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 8,000 yards (Jintsu miss, Astoria scoring 2 hits)
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards (Ralph Talbot scoring)
DD Hayashio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards (Ralph Talbot scoring)
Range closes to 6,000 yards (closer to see them or let them fire their torps?)
CA Kumano engages CA Astoria at 6,000 yards (Kumano takes beating with 8inch)
CA Suzuya engages DD Ralph Talbot at 6,000 yards (Suzuya miss)
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 6,000 yards (Jintsu miss, Astoria miss)
CA Astoria engages DD Hayashio at 6,000 yards (Astoria hits her hard)
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Kazegumo at 6,000 yards (R.T. scores)
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 6,000 yards (R.T. scores again)
Range increases to 9,000 yards (Time to disengage)
CA Kumano engages CA Astoria at 9,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Nowaki at 9,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Helm at 9,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 9,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Hayashio at 9,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 9,000 yards
DD Kazegumo engages DD Helm at 9,000 yards (in short Allied ships scored heavily while Japs got few more hits on Astoria)
Range increases to 14,000 yards (time to sing "Run rabbit, run")
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 14,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Helm at 14,000 yards
CA Myoko engages CA Astoria at 14,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Nowaki at 14,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 14,000 yards (same as above, only 2 japanese ships are not aflame at this state: Myoko and Hamakaze)
Range increases to 16,000 yards ("get out of there!" comes to my mind)
CA Haguro engages CA Astoria at 16,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 16,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Haguro at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 17,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 17,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Helm at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards (Allied destroyers scoring at this range with many hits)
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 19,000 yards
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Helm at 19,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CL Jintsu at 19,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 18,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 18,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Helm at 18,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 18,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Makigumo at 18,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 18,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 18,000 yards
Mikawa, G. orders Japanese TF to disengage (Mikawa orders to disengage, but those bluejackets must have been on steroids)
Range closes to 16,000 yards (skipped rest of the animation)
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 16,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Nowaki at 16,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 16,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 16,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Kazegumo at 16,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards
DD Nowaki engages DD Ralph Talbot at 15,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CA Astoria at 15,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Nowaki at 15,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Myoko at 14,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 14,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 14,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Helm at 14,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 14,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Helm at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Suzuya at 11,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 11,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Makigumo at 11,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards (OMG again that close?)
DD Makigumo sunk by DD Ralph Talbot at 8,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CL Jintsu at 8,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Akigumo at 8,000 yards
Scanland, F. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Kumano at 9,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 9,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 9,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Nowaki at 9,000 yards
CA Astoria engages DD Kazegumo at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Haguro at 15,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 15,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 15,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Hamakaze at 15,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kazegumo at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
DD Kazegumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 19,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Astoria at 19,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Hamakaze at 19,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Hayashio at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 23,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Myoko at 23,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Helm at 23,000 yards
Range increases to 27,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Astoria at 27,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Helm at 27,000 yards
Range increases to 30,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Helm at 30,000 yards
Range increases to 34,000 yards
Task forces break off...
To say, 2 CAs, 4 DDs for 1 CA (probably) is not a good trade. In night Naval battle I would bet for Japs going in with almost 4:1 superiority.
Astoria managed to stay majority of the battle outside of visibility and together with both destroyers fired highly accurate gunfire (even with radar shot off on Astoria) while the Japs were firing into complete darkness. [X(]
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Yamato hugger
- Posts: 3791
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:38 am
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Mark Weston
ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
ORIGINAL: gunnergoz
I'm reading about chaos, oddball results, unpredictable outcomes, nonsensical events...sounds like historic warfare to me!
Not when it happens every time.
Well of course it doesn't happen every time. People don't start forum threads when they see a perfectly average surface battle, and don't necessarily have any to hand in their current turns when the subject comes up. So firstly we have confirmation bias; a situation where extreme results are reported and discussed while average results are ignored.
Secondly, everyone who's read history knows that extreme results were pretty common. The results of battles like Savo Island - or Midway for that matter - were outrageously one-sided. Obviously we can't reject the reality of what happened, so instead we busy ourselves finding reasons as to why they happened that way and often we almost persuade ourselves that the outrageous result was inevitable. Whereas when a game generates an extreme result (especially when it's against us!) we're surprised and frustrated and our first response is to question the validity of the result rather than try to explain why it happened. Thus the forum posts about how the combat system is broken.
Most wargames I've played (in 25 years of playing them) are IMO horribly biased towards the average. I think that's because gamers like to be in control, which means wanting to get predictable results from their carefully planned attacks. Personally I'm loving what I've seen of AE so far, including all the variability and surprise in the surface combat model.
Except that I have played AE for over a year, and have never (or rarely) seen an "average" result. Whoever called AE "allied edition" wasnt far off the mark. Esp in surface combat.
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
In example above by Barb there are 85 hits made by 3 ships and 17 hits made by 11 ships.
We can see wacky results when 17 ships can overhelm in short time 2 or 3 with superior capacity. For the above to happen the 3 American ships needed to encounter the Japanese ships almost one by one, and shot them. So why the the US ships night fired from 17Kyd?! and the Japanese were still surprised one by one after that?
What is happening doesn't make sense and i think the problem is worse than being Pro-Allied or Anti-Allied.
We can see wacky results when 17 ships can overhelm in short time 2 or 3 with superior capacity. For the above to happen the 3 American ships needed to encounter the Japanese ships almost one by one, and shot them. So why the the US ships night fired from 17Kyd?! and the Japanese were still surprised one by one after that?
What is happening doesn't make sense and i think the problem is worse than being Pro-Allied or Anti-Allied.
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
[/quote]
Except that I have played AE for over a year, and have never (or rarely) seen an "average" result. Whoever called AE "allied edition" wasnt far off the mark. Esp in surface combat.
[/quote]
Straight from the horses mouth.
Except that I have played AE for over a year, and have never (or rarely) seen an "average" result. Whoever called AE "allied edition" wasnt far off the mark. Esp in surface combat.
[/quote]
Straight from the horses mouth.
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
If they tweak it down, we'll never see a Battle of Samar.
BS, MS, PhD, WitP:AE, WitE, WitW
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Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39650
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
ORIGINAL: Miller
Except that I have played AE for over a year, and have never (or rarely) seen an "average" result. Whoever called AE "allied edition" wasnt far off the mark. Esp in surface combat.
Straight from the horses mouth.
And I've played AE longer than YH has and I've seen many "average" results as well as many outliers. In any case, the pieces of the outliers that have been identified as actual issues are being addressed for the first patch. Let's see how that goes.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
-
John Lansford
- Posts: 2664
- Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 12:40 am
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result
A RN CA/CL/DD force intercepted a BIG invasion TF off of Moumere in my game; 6 ships vs over 30 transports, all loaded with troops.
The RN sank every last one of them, leaving the PC nearly for last before blowing it out of the water with 8" hits.
I've also had an Australian/USN force of one CA, several CL's and a few DD's intercept a giant TF landing a division at Koumac; it was in the daytime so the results weren't as bad for the AI as the RN battle, but my ships still sank more than half of a TF so large not all the ships were on the display screen. No damage was taken by the Allied TF's in either battle. An ABDA cruiser/DD force intercepted a landing at Kalhari and sank all the transports there for only minor hits by PB's. Over the last two turns, I estimate that the AI has lost nearly 100 AK's and AP's to surface attacks from those three landings, with no damage to my ships.
The RN sank every last one of them, leaving the PC nearly for last before blowing it out of the water with 8" hits.
I've also had an Australian/USN force of one CA, several CL's and a few DD's intercept a giant TF landing a division at Koumac; it was in the daytime so the results weren't as bad for the AI as the RN battle, but my ships still sank more than half of a TF so large not all the ships were on the display screen. No damage was taken by the Allied TF's in either battle. An ABDA cruiser/DD force intercepted a landing at Kalhari and sank all the transports there for only minor hits by PB's. Over the last two turns, I estimate that the AI has lost nearly 100 AK's and AP's to surface attacks from those three landings, with no damage to my ships.