Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

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Micke II
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by Micke II »

In my PBEM (2 Japanese players against 1 American) we have decided to use a non historical start by launching a raid on Manila on December 7th instead to attack Pearl Harbor. KB went at 3 hex East of Luzon. All bombers based in Formosa attacked either Manila port or airfields as Clark Field and Iba but emphasis was put on Manila harbor.
Mini KB (2 CVE + 1 CVL) was positioned east of Luzon to intercept any ship trying to escape.

Results went well above our expectations. According to our opponent 98 % of the Asiatic fleet was destroyed in 4 days including 24 submarines + 1 sunked in Iba, in total more than 80 ships. Ships trying to escape from Hong Kong were also trapped. Bombing of Manila and Clark Field lasted during 3 consecutives days and achieved destruction of every damaged ship. We used only bombs and no torpedoes. Only one bomb of 800 kg and sometimes 250 kg is sufficient to annihilate a submarine. Big disappointment was CA Houston’s escape which has survived to 3 torpedo attacks conducted with Nells and Bettys without any damage.

A lot of US fighters in Manila, Iba and Clark Field were destroyed but B17 succeeded to escape. After 5 days of raid allied air force on Luzon was no more effective.
In the following days we split KB in 2. 3 CV were sent to support the invasion of Wake and Rabaul, reinforced by 2 CVL.
3 CV and mini KB stayed in Celebes and Java Seas south of Borneo to avoid any Dutch ships to escape and to sustain invasion of these islands.
At January 25th 1942 Balikpapan and Tarakan are in Japanese hands as well as Manado, Manila, Malacca, Amboina, Rabaul, Wake.
With this strategy we have been able to seize Palembang on January 18th and to land on Java on January 21th.
Singapore will fail probably in 3 or 4 days.

The main advantages to launch a surprise raid on December 7th on Manila compare to the historical start to my opinion are the following:

- Speed the invasion of Borneo, Java, and Sumatra due to the decisive support and early positioning of 5 CV which has discouraged any allied initiative or counterattack.

- Leave to Japanese player more strategic options after the capture of Java and Sumatra at an early stage where the Allied player has been able to bring reinforcements.

- Even if the US submarines have dud torpedoes, in 1 case every 3, these torpedoes are functional and are able to sink a transport, a tanker or a cargo. So it’s a thread to cope with. With this strategy this threat has disappeared. Japanese have still to fight with the Dutch and British submarines with are rather effective. One of them succeeded to torpedo big liner Argentina Maru in Palembang harbor.

Chinese sea and approach of Honshu are very peaceful, so convoys can sail safely with very low commitment of escorts. We have lost only 1 AO in the vicinity of Luzon in 7 weeks due to submarine actions.
(In an another game with historical start where I am playing on the Allied side, in 4 weeks even with dud torpedoes problem, US entire Asiatic submarine fleet has been able to sink a dozen of transport and cargo, some of them full of troops. Compare to the Manila gambit Japanese side is 4 to 5 weeks behind for invasion of Dutch East Indies)

- Put at bay Dutch bombers and ABDA fleet which have sustained heavy losses due to the action of the 5 CV. Remnants of the ABDA fleet have withdrawn from the Dutch East Indies.

- Avoid any escape of Dutch troops and evacuation of oil, resources or fuel to Australia.

Drawbacks of this strategy are not yet visible.

As underlined by others Pear Harbor’s fleet is intact but the old BBs will not be effective as long as the US side will not have air domination with his CV on Pacific Ocean. It will take at least one year to achieve it.
Most important drawback is to leave intact airplanes and auxiliary ships which are able in a very short term to sustain development of basis along the California-Australia sea road.
Inconvenient at this stage of the game are not so important compare to the advantages.
Only future will tell us if it’s a good strategy or not and if the Allies will recover more quickly with this opening move than with historical start.


Here are the lists of the ships sunk in 4 days in Luzon or around Bornéo and Mindanao. A important blow against the allied navies.

ImageImage[/img]
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Ketza
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by Ketza »

A properly conducted PI attack accomplishes the following:
 
1) Sinks 20-27 subs and damages the rest enough so they either sink to the mines you lay or founder in the harbor from follow on port attacks.
 
2) Airstrikes that shut down or severly damage Clark and Manila and delay fort building. Usually some 40 or so planes are destroyed and another 40 or more damaged making it easier to keep things locked down over the next few turns without the KB present.
 
3) A bombardment TF will usually shut down IBA saving more planes for Clark and Manila.
 
4) Sinks/damages most of the Asiatic fleet of course.
 
 The most important factor beyond these basic pluses is the change of the strategic dynamic in the theatre. With KB in the area early there it becomes very difficult for an allied player to turn Java into a fortress or solidify his defence to the point where it is costly for Japan to clear the area.
 
 Another thing it does is gives ther allied player more toys to play with. I have found this makes most allied players more aggressive early. So far I have been able to "handle" the extra agressiveness and sink some major allied assets early.
 
 Of course your own mileage may vary.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by bklooste »

 
If you do hit Manilla you need a very good strategy in the Pacific. I would argue if you hit PH KB can go to the DEI  , if you dont it is needed in the Pacifc. 
 
As i said in Nemos AAR  his oponent didnt hit PH , when KB went to the DEI  he used all the old BBs and the CVs
and the Marshals ,  Marcus Is and some of the Kuriles look likely to be in Allied hands by Feb 42 . There goes the SW pacific and the home islands are under threat of strat bombing.
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Ketza
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by Ketza »

I agree you need to be smart about the Cent Pacific. My first AE game I handled things a bit loosely there and the early Tarawa and Makin TFs got severly roughed up and my Nells were out of position so they could not use torps.

You cant take anything for granted if KB is in the SRA thats for sure.
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AcePylut
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by AcePylut »

True that, but really, does any Japanese player worry about the US forces in Feb '42? I'd let em take Marcus, that's just beenies for the Jap!
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by crsutton »

Well, if you hit Pearl and have a good first strike, there is nothing to keep you from staying around and hitting Pearl for a day or two more. (The American fighters are fairly easy to overwhelm)  It is not hard to sink most all of the old BBs. A very nice VP haul.
 
That is a consideration.
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Micke II
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by Micke II »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, if you hit Pearl and have a good first strike, there is nothing to keep you from staying around and hitting Pearl for a day or two more. (The American fighters are fairly easy to overwhelm)  It is not hard to sink most all of the old BBs. A very nice VP haul.

That is a consideration.

Risk is not US fighters but very heavy flak . During a second day attack you can easily have 50 bombers destroyed by AA.
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vlcz
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by vlcz »


KB can be in the DEI theatre seven days from the PH attack, those seven days are NOT critical in seizing DEI. Java, Sumatra etc will not be made a fortress in those seven days.
specially if you seize khendari at day one and base torpedo armed betties over there on 8 december (doable).  

 By attacking PH you can keep KB in DEI for longer (my preference being splitting KB in two keeping 3 CV in Truk-Rabaul axis anyway)

IMO the only real “pro” for a Manila option is the sub pest-control operations, on this matter and  assuming no HR against it,  I would defend the strategy of double attack, KB hits PH and all Netties port attack Manila at low altitude, test it yourself and you will find results against subs over there are quite good.
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Chickenboy
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: vlcz


KB can be in the DEI theatre seven days from the PH attack, those seven days are NOT critical in seizing DEI. Java, Sumatra etc will not be made a fortress in those seven days.
specially if you seize khendari at day one and base torpedo armed betties over there on 8 december (doable).  

 By attacking PH you can keep KB in DEI for longer (my preference being splitting KB in two keeping 3 CV in Truk-Rabaul axis anyway)

IMO the only real “pro” for a Manila option is the sub pest-control operations, on this matter and  assuming no HR against it,  I would defend the strategy of double attack, KB hits PH and all Netties port attack Manila at low altitude, test it yourself and you will find results against subs over there are quite good.
While it's true that KB (at high speeds) can make the DEI threshold in 7 days post Pearl attack, I think this is overstating their capabilities. If they did so, they would be in bad need of a refuel and they would either be 'winchester' on ammo or essentially devoid of torpedo loadouts. For maximum efficacy, they should be refueled and rearmed, probably in the home islands. This is likely to add another 4-5 days to this trip, maybe more.

The last thing I would want as the IJN would be to put an underarmed or underfueled KB within the DEI. There they can be ambushed by a surprise SCTF, have numerous submarines vectored to their position or likely chokepoints that they must transit or even be susceptible to air attacks by an awakened foe.

That more realistic window (about 10 days-2 weeks) is plenty of time for the Asiatic fleet to scamper, pick up units and flee or establish a defensive network.
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Ketza
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by Ketza »

One of the nice things about AE is the multiple strats that are possible as evident in this thread. I imagine the Manila or Pearl discussion could go on forever.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by offenseman »

It has been over a month since the last post in this thread and I am wondering if any new opinions have developed or old opinions have changed regarding whether it is best to hit either Manila or PH?  Not both. 
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by herwin »

If you don't keep the KB and slow battleships in a central position, the US Fleet will dance on your head in the Eastern Mandates. That said, a port strike on Manila is a lot more destructive than a port strike on Pearl. In War Plan Orange, the KB was able to sink half the subs and almost all the surface vessels there in two days. You do need to blockade the port with a SAG.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: herwin
That said, a port strike on Manila is a lot more destructive than a port strike on Pearl. In War Plan Orange, the KB was able to sink half the subs and almost all the surface vessels there in two days. You do need to blockade the port with a SAG.
Sure, if you wish to cheat the stock game. Everybody knows the standard stock moves built into the opening day move. Whoop, whoop.

It would be interesting to see you play this out in a scenario constructed by military professionals that have taken this, and several other, alternatives into account for the Allied side.

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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by joliverlay »

I did not think the S-series subs were effected by the faulty torpoedoes.  Historically the carried the older (and still reliable) torpoedo, and the game models this.  Until the torps are fixed, the S-subs are very good and may in fact get 5 ships per year.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: joliverlay
I did not think the S-series subs were effected by the faulty torpoedoes.  Historically the carried the older (and still reliable) torpoedo, and the game models this.  Until the torps are fixed, the S-subs are very good and may in fact get 5 ships per year.
Too right. When my team tried that gambit, all we got was some merchies in port. The subs had already deployed out and we took a whacking. We did some damage, but the other side was just too far inside our loop. Them S boats is nasty.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by John 3rd »

Everyone knows I hit both targets, however, if I am forced to choose next campaign I think I will try Manila. Taking out those SS would be a lot of fun and it would be a whole new game with the Pacific Fleet intact at start. What would you do about that? Certainly would make for a challenging game as the Japanese. Could be a lot of fun...
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by offenseman »

John, that is what I am thinking too. Starting a new PBEM this or next week and want to do something just a little bit different. But not at the expense of getting hammered in 43. I have some theories about late war (after 1/44) end game strategy and want to try them out! :) 

A little windy lately eh? It was bad here, I can only imagine how it was out where you are.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by thegreatwent »

In my 2x2 game we hit Manila on 12/7/41. We got started recently so it will be awhile till I can report on the strategy.


The wind here in Denver the last few days has been crazy. Must be that tremendous amount of suck coming from Kansas[:D]
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by FatR »

I think that the benefits of PH strike cannot even be compared to other possible options. Its main advantage isn't even in ships sunk. It is in greater strategical freedom for key opening months of the war. Getting Marshalls invaded in January is no fun, and meeting the whole USN battleline charging against the Java invasion fleets is even less fun. Do note, that while leaving Manila subs intact will cause some cumulative effect over the years, mauling in the sea of a major Japanese invasion during the DEI campaign can cost Japan the game. Also note, that absence of any major warship sank by Allies early will cause even greater cumulative effect on the game.
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RE: Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: herwin
That said, a port strike on Manila is a lot more destructive than a port strike on Pearl. In War Plan Orange, the KB was able to sink half the subs and almost all the surface vessels there in two days. You do need to blockade the port with a SAG.
Sure, if you wish to cheat the stock game. Everybody knows the standard stock moves built into the opening day move. Whoop, whoop.

It would be interesting to see you play this out in a scenario constructed by military professionals that have taken this, and several other, alternatives into account for the Allied side.

We have, several times; and life isn't as wonderful as you think.

Hi, JWE,

Blitzk and I are just starting again. We're using a modified version of Scenario 1 with the KB move replotted. The Allied first turn is unmodified. I've been following the pre-war plan for the US Fleet. It works well if the Japanese player focusses too much on operations in the SRA.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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