Ok lets take America out of WW2.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

you have some good points. The US sold weapons to the allies, the allies where struggling, allies kept asking when is America going to join. Now those passenger liners just had passengers and nothing else right? Parts of US to Mexico was a major fubar on Germany's part.

Why do you keep calling them 'The Allies'? By the time the remaining 'Entente' became "The Allies", they were no longer struggling. Did not the Central Powers "struggle" as well?

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Well the Germans did publish what they where going to do. And it was war.

And the unrestricted submarine war campaigns were the main reason America entered on the side of the Allies.

I didn't say it was the main reason, put pressure from England and France added oil to the fire.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: axisandallies



with your dentist right?

Warspite1

No - I said the vicar. We don't use dentists in the UK. The Dental Association said we should but we are all too bloody arrogant to agree with them - what do they know? More tea vicar?

I don't think I'm better than you if this is what you mean. Vicar has many meanings.

Warspite1

a) that not what I mean. You said all Brits are the same - we are all arrogant, have bad teeth, drink tea, eat fish and chips from newspaper, hate America, talk cockney rhyming slang and eat cucumber sandwiches (although this is instead of - not with - the fish and chips).
b) I only know of one meaning for Vicar...er Vicar, you know the Church? Genuine question - what other meanings are there?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Well the Germans did publish what they where going to do. And it was war.

And the unrestricted submarine war campaigns were the main reason America entered on the side of the Allies.

That and the US government insisting that it's citizens should and could go whereever they liked...including a war zone. Add to that the Anti-German sentiment created by the Uboats because the loss of life was viewed as an uncivilized way to fight. (a view which would not survive entry into WWII) Don't see this as England and France "dragging" the US into the war kicking and screaming. [;)]

[sprior]

I'm bored now. I know where's a ship left over from the Grand Fleet. And some from the High Seas Fleet too.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

you have some good points. The US sold weapons to the allies, the allies where struggling, allies kept asking when is America going to join. Now those passenger liners just had passengers and nothing else right? Parts of US to Mexico was a major fubar on Germany's part.

Why do you keep calling them 'The Allies'? By the time the remaining 'Entente' became "The Allies", they were no longer struggling. Did not the Central Powers "struggle" as well?

They sure did, it was a struggle on all sides. Entente or allies same thing. At the National WW1 museum in Kansas City they have a hall of allies, Entente was used once at the start of the tour, but not mentioned again.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: sprior

Well the Germans did publish what they where going to do. And it was war.

And the unrestricted submarine war campaigns were the main reason America entered on the side of the Allies.

That and the US government insisting that it's citizens should and could go whereever they liked...including a war zone. Add to that the Anti-German sentiment created by the Uboats because the loss of life was viewed as an uncivilized way to fight. (a view which would not survive entry into WWII) Don't see this as England and France "dragging" the US into the war kicking and screaming. [;)]

I never once said drag. I used the term goated, which in turn they where.

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Without the U.S., the Russians lose. The English lose. The Australians lose.

It's just that simple. The U.S. did not do it all alone, but without them, the Axis powers win. Period.

umm..no... The Germans did not have enough POL to conduct their far reaching goals. Eventually they would have been worn down by all the little gnat like bites from everyone involved.They also had a finite manpower reserve.However well they were doing the meat grinder in the east was taking a toll on the experienced cadre. The Russians could throw away troops for far longer than the Germans. Plus you have to take into account the British at that time.They weren't going to sit shaking in their boots. Then you got the partisans. ALl this would eventually sap German manpower to where they were tossing in old men and young'uns into battle just like in real life.

Japan was not going to go traipsing around the Russian far east.They remembered the bloody nose they got there in 1939.Here again, the Chinese meat grinder would have eventually worn down the army since however large they got every little place had to be supplied with troops and supplies .That spreads out a finite manpower base.And again, all the little bites would take their toll.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: sprior



And the unrestricted submarine war campaigns were the main reason America entered on the side of the Allies.

That and the US government insisting that it's citizens should and could go whereever they liked...including a war zone. Add to that the Anti-German sentiment created by the Uboats because the loss of life was viewed as an uncivilized way to fight. (a view which would not survive entry into WWII) Don't see this as England and France "dragging" the US into the war kicking and screaming. [;)]

I never once said drag. I used the term goated, which in turn they where.

Warspite1

Do you mean goaded? I think Goating is something altogether more......... different, well according to the Urban dictionary anyway......

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Warspite1

No - I said the vicar. We don't use dentists in the UK. The Dental Association said we should but we are all too bloody arrogant to agree with them - what do they know? More tea vicar?

I don't think I'm better than you if this is what you mean. Vicar has many meanings.

Warspite1

a) that not what I mean. You said all Brits are the same - we are all arrogant, have bad teeth, drink tea, eat fish and chips from newspaper, hate America, talk cockney rhyming slang and eat cucumber sandwiches (although this is instead of - not with - the fish and chips).
b) I only know of one meaning for Vicar...er Vicar, you know the Church? Genuine question - what other meanings are there?

anyone acting "in the person of" or agent of a superior.

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: Southern_land

Btritain smashed up by the Luftewaffe in 1940 and strangled by Uboats in 1940-42. All but collapses under starvation rations and lack of resources but no invasion is forthcoming. All 2500 merchant ships lost in the Atlantic must come from British and Allied sources, not US. Commonwealth forces outside of Britain are effectively neutered by lack of resources. German Final victory over the Soviets in 1943 with no lendlease plus the German divisions and Luftewaffe freed up from Western Europe as well as extra German munitions, supplies and resources not consumed combating by the Allied bomber campaign. UK and commonwealth converted to a German client state by 1944. US beats Japan in 44 without Nukes, then goes facist under Lindbergh in 1945 because "all the cool guys at school are facist these days".

You assume too much in the Lufftwaffe doing well without American support for Britain. Same outcome as RL.

You assume too much from lend lease.While extremely important to the fight, it wasnt a be all end all.Russia would have taken longer to win.Sure there would have been all these German divisions and Lufftwaffe formations available, but supplying them is a different story.

There was no way Stalin would have surrendered.This would have been a fight to the finish.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: axisandallies



I don't think I'm better than you if this is what you mean. Vicar has many meanings.

Warspite1

a) that not what I mean. You said all Brits are the same - we are all arrogant, have bad teeth, drink tea, eat fish and chips from newspaper, hate America, talk cockney rhyming slang and eat cucumber sandwiches (although this is instead of - not with - the fish and chips).
b) I only know of one meaning for Vicar...er Vicar, you know the Church? Genuine question - what other meanings are there?

anyone acting "in the person of" or agent of a superior.

Warspite1

Okay thanks - no I meant it as in Point a) of my Post 83 and previous posts that led up to it. I had never heard of that alternative for Vicar.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

They sure did, it was a struggle on all sides. Entente or allies same thing. At the National WW1 museum in Kansas City they have a hall of allies, Entente was used once at the start of the tour, but not mentioned again.

Thats incorrect. The original "Entente" alliance consisted of England, Russia and France, with Italy later joining after changing sides. After Russia dropped out, the Entente contined with France and England (and Italy mainly facing off against Austria Hungary). America was in the war, but not yet ready to fight alongside them until 1918. While some historians use different dates to specify when Entente 'unofficially' began to be called "The Allies" , I myself put it around the time the AEF began large scale active participation in the Western Front battles. By that point the Ludendorf offensive had been halted.....by the French and Commonwealth. Hence, by the time the Western front was truely an "Allied" front, they were no longer struggling.....at least not to survive. The Germans were done offensively, but they still had a remarkable degree of fight left in them defensively. America was neither dragged into the conflict, nor did they "save" the Entente. Their entry meerly ensured that, given enough time to ship the men and prep/train/organize them for the Front, that the Central Powers could not win due to the Manpower issue which was central to WWI. Ludendorf's offensive was launched to try to knock out the remaining Entente before the US's manpower reserves irrevecably altered the equation against Germany.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: Nikademus




That and the US government insisting that it's citizens should and could go whereever they liked...including a war zone. Add to that the Anti-German sentiment created by the Uboats because the loss of life was viewed as an uncivilized way to fight. (a view which would not survive entry into WWII) Don't see this as England and France "dragging" the US into the war kicking and screaming. [;)]

I never once said drag. I used the term goated, which in turn they where.

Warspite1

Do you mean goaded? I think Goating is something altogether more......... different, well according to the Urban dictionary anyway......

Look warspite1 I like war games, I enjoy war games, I like talking history. Help prove me wrong. I took offense to being called a rebel by many of your fellow people. I reacted for the worse, and for that I apologize, this is not who I am.

[Twotribes]

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah




There is no doubt that Lend Lease and the massive production capacity of the US did wonders for ther UK war effort. The cost involved were staggering, so staggering that we only finished paying for it in 2006.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6215847.stm

Cheers

Jev

Catch 22....money loaned just in the years 1945 and 1946......1947 to 1987 not paid. 1914-1919 not paid. 1939-1944 not paid.

Dont forget that there were non monetory payments included in Reverse Lend Lease consisting of leasing of land to the US to build various bases. Add to that the gift of scientific research ie. Radar, Huff Duff, ASDIC etc that continued even after the war was over.

To tie the repayment of Lend Lease to just monitory value and dollars repaid is innacurate.

Cheers

Jev

We got basing rights for giving Britain 50 destroyers.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

They sure did, it was a struggle on all sides. Entente or allies same thing. At the National WW1 museum in Kansas City they have a hall of allies, Entente was used once at the start of the tour, but not mentioned again.

Thats incorrect. The original "Entente" alliance consisted of England, Russia and France, with Italy later joining after changing sides. After Russia dropped out, the Entente contined with France and England (and Italy mainly facing off against Austria Hungary). America was in the war, but not yet ready to fight alongside them until 1918. While some historians use different dates to specify when Entente 'unofficially' began to be called "The Allies" , I myself put it around the time the AEF began large scale active participation in the Western Front battles. By that point the Ludendorf offensive had been halted.....by the French and Commonwealth. Hence, by the time the Western front was truely an "Allied" front, they were no longer struggling.....at least not to survive. The Germans were done offensively, but they still had a remarkable degree of fight left in them defensively. America was neither dragged into the conflict, nor did they "save" the Entente. Their entry meerly ensured that, given enough time to ship the men and prep/train/organize them for the Front, that the Central Powers could not win due to the Manpower issue which was central to WWI. Ludendorf's offensive was launched to try to knock out the remaining Entente before the US's manpower reserves irrevecably altered the equation against Germany.

I stand corrected.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: axisandallies



I never once said drag. I used the term goated, which in turn they where.

Warspite1

Do you mean goaded? I think Goating is something altogether more......... different, well according to the Urban dictionary anyway......

Look warspite1 I like war games, I enjoy war games, I like talking history. Help prove me wrong. I took offense to being called a rebel by many of your fellow people. I reacted for the worse, and for that I apologize, this is not who I am.

Warspite1

I like war games (me too)
I like talking history (me too)
I took offence to be being called a rebel (well don't - I assure you we probably have our share of US-haters in the UK and vice-versa, but the vast majority couldn't care less about 1776 - it was going to happen at some point - and anyone calling you a rebel is probably just joshing).
I reacted for the worse and for that I apologise (no problem - apology accepted rebel [;)])

[axisandallies]

My point for this thread got lost I think on WW1. My point being this. If you take America out of WW2, I think you would have a stalemate at some point. Germany could not take UK, and the UK could not invade Eroupe. Could the Soviets fight a two front war? Could Japan take China and make war on Russia and the UK at the same time? Let's have fun with this.

[bairdlander2]

The only reason USA entered WW2 was for big business/banks to make money selling/producing weopons for the military.I was never about helping anyone but themselves to more profits.Its the same thing as today,remember nothing changes but the date,history remains the same,always has and always will.

[Yogi the Great]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

Let's have fun with this.

Gee, hasn't it been just fun, fun, fun so far!?

Reply - Yes go Badgers - My daughter is a Badger alumni, my son-in-law a Penn State Alumni. That creates a lot of fun. If this post means nothing to you, see page 2.