Directive 21 v2.0

[samba_liten]

19. Volks Grenadier Divisions:

As all Volks Grenadier Divisions where actually reconstructed Infantry Divisions, there are none of these Divisions in Directive 21. The Divisions were named Volks (peoples) Grenadier Divisions to boost morale and to encourage the German people. They were in fact, a bit weaker than normal German Infantry Divisions in Artillery, as there where shortages of 105mm Howitzers at the time.

I am nit picking now, but as i am suffering from a severe shortage of Germans around turn 100, here goes anyway.

I have gotten onto the VGD's in my TO&E project, and it turns out not all of them were reconstructions. Some were freshly raised. Details in the .pdf or on request if needed.

EDIT: 16 divisions so far![:D]

Anyway, it's a small point, and i doubt many people will make it until the VGD's start appearing anyway!

[BigDuke66]

Yes looks like those are newly raised and used on the east front:
320. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 588. Volks-Grenadier-Division)
349. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 567. Volks-Grenadier-Division)
That is just a quick check but most seem to have been used on the west front, some have a really weird heritage renamed several times etc. altogether a real mess so one must closely check if a VG is really new or if it's based on a division already in the game, if so there should be no need to put the VG in.
Problem is even when not using remnants as base for the VG they are often raised because a another divisions was destroyed, those 2 are replacement for the destroyed 320. & 349. Infanterie Divison but if those are reconstituted ingame again and again then there is no need to put them in.

[samba_liten]

The 16 i mentioned are the ones i'm sure about. Good point about the western front though. I'll have to check that too.

[samba_liten]

Having done some checking, here are the divisions that are eligible for the eastern front:

563. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 17th August 1944 from the Grenadier-Lehr Division, as 563. Grenadier-Division. Renamed 563. Volks-Grenadier-Division 9th October 1944. Served in the Courland pocket with the 18th Army until the end of the war. http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/563VGD.htm
541. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 7th July 1944 as a Sperr-division. At some point in August it was renamed 541. Grenadier-Division, and then, on 9th October 541. Volks-Grenadier-Division. The division served with Heeresgruppe Mitte on the Narew river. After the Soviet winter offensive it made its way to Heeresgruppe Nord, fighting in East Prussia. It ended the war with Heeresgruppe Weichsel at Swinemunde.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/541VGD.htm
542. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 8th July 1944 as a Sperr Division. At some point it was renamed 542. Greadier-Division. 12th August it was renamed 542. Infanterie-Division. 9th October it was renamed again, this time to become 542. Volks-Grenadier-Division. At this point Grenadier-Brigade 1131 was incorporated into the division. It served on the Narew with Heeresgruppe Mitte, then Heeresgruppe Weichsel in west Prussia, and ended the war directly subordinated to OKH.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/542VGD.htm
544. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 10th July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 544. Grenadier-Division, then, on 9 October, renamed 544. Volks-Genadier-Division. Served with Heeresgruppe A in Poland. Ended the war in Czechoslovakia with 1.Panzerarmee.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/544VGD.htm
545. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 10 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 545. Grenadier-Division, and assigned to 17. Armee. 9 October renamed 545. Volks-Grenadier-Division, and served with Heeresgruppe A and Mitte untill the end of the war.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/545VGD.htm
547. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 547. Grenadier-Division, and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Lithuania. 9 October 1944 renamed 547. Volks-Grenadier-Division. It retreated into Poland, where it was destroyed in February 1945. It was reformed in March and assigned to Heeresgruppe Weichsel.
548. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Raised 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 548. Grenadier-Division and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Lithuania. 9 October renamed 548. Volks-Grenadier-Division and served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord until April when it disappears from the sources.
549. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 549. Grenadier-Division, and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in lithuania. 9 October renamed 549. Volks-Grenadier-Division. It served with Heeresgruppe Mitte, Nord and Weichsel.
551. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Fromed 11 July as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 551. Grenadier division and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Lithuania, where it was nearly destroyed in the soviet offensive. 9 Octobe enamed 551. Volks-Grenadier-Division, and served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord.
558. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 558. Grenadier-Division, and sent to lithuania. 9 October renamed 558. Volks-Grenadier-Division. Served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord.
561. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 24 July as Grenadier-Division Ostpreussen 1. 6 August renamed 561. Volks-Grenadier-Division. Served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord.
562. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 24 July 1944 as Grenadier-Division Ostpreussen 2. 27 July, renamed 562. Grenadier-Division and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte. 9 October renamed 562. Volks-Grenadier-Division. Served Heeresgruppe Mitte until destroyed in the Heiligenbeil pocked. The staff was used to form a RAD division.

That makes 12 divisions so far. They were formed as part of the 29th welle, and later updated to the TO&E of the 32nd welle.

[sPzAbt653]

I checked my notes and found nothing for these VG Div's, so I can assume they've been overlooked for D21. I also checked another scenario I did and the ones you mention above are all in, so I can assume I've been thru them all to verify their deployments. So it seems a good idea to add them in.

Their arrival date is a question, as they should be timed with a German reversal of fortune and the inability to keep up with losses. Late '44 seems too arbitrary, but maybe tied to a proximity warning for when the Soviets advance into Poland would work.

Once you get the TOE's for the 32nd Wave done, I can add these in. [:D]

Thanks Fred !

[samba_liten]

The 32nd is done, and anyway it's the same as the 29th, which i think made it into the upload last night.

I'm hoping to finish off the infantry before i go back to work in a couple of days, so it'll be there soon either way.

While I'm here, let me ask what scenario it might be that you mentioned, and if the Lebensraum scenario on your site is good for a test play?

[BigDuke66]

Crap I jumped over those renamed from Grenadier divisions no wonder my list is so short, nonetheless don't forget:
320. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 588. Volks-Grenadier-Division later Schatten-Division "Möckern")
349. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 567. Volks-Grenadier-Division)

I guess there aren't any events left to make the VG divisions optional? A lot of them appeared to plug the hole that appeared after the destruction of Heeresgruppe Mitte, I guess no player will suffer in this way under Elmer.

[samba_liten]

The 320th was a replacement for the destroyed 320th ID, if i read it right. http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/Gliederung.htm

Likewise, the 349th was replacement for the destroyed 349th ID.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/349VGD.htm

[BigDuke66]

Well it says it was the replacement for the 320. Infanterie Division but there is nothing that indicates it was formed out of remnants of that division, the sources there say it was formed out of the 588. Volks-Grenadier-Division "Möckern", same counts for the 349. Volks-Grenadier-Division that was formed out of the 567. Volks-Grenadier-Division as replacement for the 349. Infanterie-Division.
I guess they could have also ended up as replacement for any other division that was destroyed, question is what does the player need at that point of the game?
If the old divisions all stay and the VG divisions just raise the number of infantry divisions is that really good?
Won't the player have already a hard time filling up the normal infantry divisions?
I guess some late war feedback is needed on this part.

[samba_liten]

That's the point. The 12 divisions i listed had nothing what-so-ever to do with previously destroyed divisions, and thus, to my mind, they would represent a net increase in forces. The ones numbered after an old division have been disqualified.

I take your point that any of these divisions could have been raised to replace any old division, regardless of numbers, but if we follow that line of reasoning, i don't see why any of them should be added.

I think Steve is on the right track with some kind of proximity trigger on the border with Poland. If the Soviets get that far, the Germans are in trouble, and it would be reasonable to assume that they would convert all these training divisions and what have you into field divisions to strengthen the line. This is what the 12 divisions represent. The reset of the VGD would be covered by units returning to the game in the normal way.

Somewhat arbitrary, i know. However that is the basis on which i chose the divisions. Otherwise the list would be much longer.

[sPzAbt653]

... what scenario it might be that you mentioned, and if the Lebensraum scenario on your site is good for a test play?

The scenario is Lebensraum, and I didn't mention it by name because, well, I didn't want it to seem like I keep mentioning it. [:'(] It's ok to playtest the version on the site. Hopefully I can have a new version ready for 3.5. The oob in LS was very well researched, I believe.

I guess there aren't any events left to make the VG divisions optional?

I don't think we need to make them optional, because if the player really doesn't need them he can leave them garrisoning Poland or Yugoslavia or wherever.

... I guess no player will suffer in this way under Elmer.

To my tally most have found the opposite to be true. I think several of us end up taking a beating in 1942, especially in the first attempt. For a scenario of such large scale and number of units, its surprisingly easy to make a strategic mistake that will cause headaches and a bit of work to overcome.

[sPzAbt653]

For those looking for the latest see post #42 on page 2 of this thread.

That would be the latest for TOAW 3.4, that is. [;)]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

For those looking for the latest see post #42 on page 2 of this thread.

That would be the latest for TOAW 3.4, that is. [;)]

The link leads to a scen called "3R" but not D21......

I started playing this one some weeks ago, but used the version in my scen folder, wasnt aware there is a newer version. So can I use the newest ver with my save ? If not, are the changes very important or is the version I play now (came with game) still ok. Cause it seems to play ok ofc some things were of note, but I can live with them. Thanks.

I wonder that I got a number of stuff in the repl. pool that isn´t used at all (eg. 122mm guns)... those should be captured ones I guess. But seems no one uses them Well seems 122mm guns are used by someone, but these people have no losses. So it would be good to have 122mm guns, as substitute for 105+150 howitzers which are in very short supply for example. I Also note all the scout cars have very high stockpile but their losses are lower and there are not enough users for them, while the SDKF 231-8 HAS high losses and supply is low of them. Those are essentially "wheeled 20mm armored cars"....

One more q: Can this be played using the new AA patch ???

[sPzAbt653]

The link leads to a scen called "3R" but not D21......

Good grief, no idea how that happened. Fixed now, thanks for reporting it.

So can I use the newest ver with my save ?

Nope, the saved game will be whatever version was saved. [;)]

are the changes very important or is the version I play now (came with game) still ok.

I forget which version came with the game, but the version changes are documented thru out this thread. I would play with the latest, but since you've already started, its up to you. (Restart ? Arghhhh).

Can this be played using the new AA patch ???

I have no experience with this, so I have no idea.

I wonder that I got a number of stuff in the repl. pool that isn´t used at all

Thanks for pointing these out, I'll see if I can dust off my D21 brain and put some thought to them.

[Alpha77]

Thanks, seems this version works ok, so no big deal.

I wonder if one can play the soviet side ? I just run a AI vs. AI game and it seems the Germans are moving / attacking quite ok......


From the ongoing game. I startet it just to get some more ideas of HUGE toaw scens, as I played only small to medium ones before. I first thought this would be to huge, but just gave it a try. So I maybe played not really "serious" the first 2 turns or so. But then I got hooked and tried to really play it. Seems the leisure stance I took bites me now in the ass, as the soviets seem to have air superiority and hundreds of good bombers as well getting all the yak 1 and Lagg fighters. Actually the northern and southern flanks are in danger for my brave allies air units (which are a bit too weak ?? The Finnish and Rumanian air forces did quite good in reality). Will they get better planes eventually ?

Here is a pic of the soviet winter offensive which seemed to aim at velijke luki (sp?), this was turn 62 or so....

[Alpha77]

Well did not work out good for Stalin (turn 68 or so). Sent massive reeinforcements per rail (v.luki is the last functioning rail head so this was luck) as well tried flanking movement from the south

[sPzAbt653]

I wonder if one can play the soviet side ?

Its not designed for that, so it wouldn't be to fair.

The Finnish and Rumanian air forces did quite good in reality). Will they get better planes eventually ?

The units have their historical compositions. They get better planes later when they historically got them.

In reference to one of your earlier questions, the 122mm's have plenty of slots in the HArKo and ArKo units. These were added in a later version, so you probably don't have them.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The units have their historical compositions. They get better planes later when they historically got them.

Ok, seems I lost a valuable unit: Italian MC200 fighter squad evaporated, I wont get em back it seem. A pity as I have plenty of the planes. Even if in game they are slightly underated. The same is true for the IAR80 btw. these were quite ok fighters. Italians and Rumanians had mostly the problem with only mediocre engines, as Germans had none to spare to give away. But the designs were quite good, even if a bit underarmed and underpowered. But should be on the same level as LAGG 3. In game LAGGs are better tho.

Is anyone playing this scen still ? Seems a good one.

A pity so low traffic here and interest in this game goes away cause no support anymore. But as soon you learn how it actually works TOAW is very powerful and flexible also for desingning all sorts of different conflicts.

Btw: Pic from Feb 42 turn 66 or so, Germans reach vicinity of Moscow, however red army throws enough untis units in their way that Wehrmacht is forced to stop advance....

[Numdydar]

I am playing this right now too [:)] So everything is not as dead as it may seem [:D]

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I am playing this right now too [:)] So everything is not as dead as it may seem [:D]

Was never dead Regarding the Lvov Pocket in Steve's D21... Try doing it in War in Russia, where you got a WEGO system. Or put yourself in the boots of von Rundstedt... Back then AG South faced the toughest resistance compared to the easy 'walk-overs' of AG North and AG Centre within the first 2-3 weeks of the campaign.

Klink, Oberst