The Egg visited the dark region and being a fan of the movie followed him/her here. I will now retreat back to the pit.Originally posted by Goblin
And 'The Art of Wargaming ' spreads ever outwards.
What If
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Culiacan Mexico
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"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Well to be sure firebombing was not exactly a good way to keep people alive.
But then the US experiences taught them a lot about the Japanese psyche along the way.
By the time they had Okinawa, it was becoming very clear what was in store for an attack of Japan.
If I had been running the show, I would have been seeking a way to end the war without wiping out an entire people as well.
But then the US experiences taught them a lot about the Japanese psyche along the way.
By the time they had Okinawa, it was becoming very clear what was in store for an attack of Japan.
If I had been running the show, I would have been seeking a way to end the war without wiping out an entire people as well.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Penetrator
- Posts: 79
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- Location: Iceland
Hello to you too:)Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico
Hello old foe.
Truman President's Diary
Yes, you showed me this before. It is true it was Truman's decision, and by all indications he did not even seriously consult his top military men.
This passage he writes does not conform with the truth (soldiers and sailors, not women and children), so either he is lying (to posterity and /or to himself) or his orders were blatantly disobeyed. So what is the historical value of this passage?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!
Yup....Originally posted by Egg_Shen
I think it would be good if Hitler made the bomb first, then we wouldn't have the russians and americans running around with nukes like a 5 year olds with sharp scissors.
The German people would have all of Europe, Russia, Canada and Africa, Japanese get all of Asia and Australia. Italy bailed out too soon the get nothing.
And if the Americans were good boys and girls they would be allowed a happy alliance with the axis powers.
We would have no military conflicts and terrorist attacks, world hunger and disease would be cured, people would be free in all parts of the world...etc
This is what the Axis powers were fighting for, no?
But we turned out ok otherwise
The EUs only complaint about Hitler is he failed....
sven
Egg_Shen,
He said that the only complaint that the European Union has about Hitler--is that he didn't suceed with his plans of conquest.
Where is 100 Mile House? The suspense is killing me...
He said that the only complaint that the European Union has about Hitler--is that he didn't suceed with his plans of conquest.
Where is 100 Mile House? The suspense is killing me...
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Ok assuming I read the post correct...
100 Mile House is from Nazi Germany? Can you be a bit more exacting.
As there is currently no such place (thank god), I am assuming you have chosen that for "whimsical" purposes?
You do realise though, that this comment you made....
quote....
I think it would be good if Hitler made the bomb first, then we wouldn't have the russians and americans running around with nukes like a 5 year olds with sharp scissors.
The German people would have all of Europe, Russia, Canada and Africa, Japanese get all of Asia and Australia. Italy bailed out too soon the get nothing.
And if the Americans were good boys and girls they would be allowed a happy alliance with the axis powers.
We would have no military conflicts and terrorist attacks, world hunger and disease would be cured, people would be free in all parts of the world...etc
This is what the Axis powers were fighting for, no?
unquote...
Would likely get you quite thoroughly hospitalised in almost any country around the world (and even by non history nuts like the average wargamer)if you made the comment in person to most people.
That's why your comments make me scratch my head.
They are sooooo hmmm, preposterously lacking in ordinary wisdom (not to mention common sense).
I can't imagine anyone saying them (even with the shield of free speech, some comments are knee deep in "I told you saying that was not a good idea".
No one here, least of all me, is in charge of what can and can't be said (weeeeell actually the Matrix staff can exercise that perogative actually if they decide to at any time I suppose).
But no one is going sympathise with a poster that can't tell the difference between an interesting notion, and incredibly poor judgement.
100 Mile House is from Nazi Germany? Can you be a bit more exacting.
As there is currently no such place (thank god), I am assuming you have chosen that for "whimsical" purposes?
You do realise though, that this comment you made....
quote....
I think it would be good if Hitler made the bomb first, then we wouldn't have the russians and americans running around with nukes like a 5 year olds with sharp scissors.
The German people would have all of Europe, Russia, Canada and Africa, Japanese get all of Asia and Australia. Italy bailed out too soon the get nothing.
And if the Americans were good boys and girls they would be allowed a happy alliance with the axis powers.
We would have no military conflicts and terrorist attacks, world hunger and disease would be cured, people would be free in all parts of the world...etc
This is what the Axis powers were fighting for, no?
unquote...
Would likely get you quite thoroughly hospitalised in almost any country around the world (and even by non history nuts like the average wargamer)if you made the comment in person to most people.
That's why your comments make me scratch my head.
They are sooooo hmmm, preposterously lacking in ordinary wisdom (not to mention common sense).
I can't imagine anyone saying them (even with the shield of free speech, some comments are knee deep in "I told you saying that was not a good idea".
No one here, least of all me, is in charge of what can and can't be said (weeeeell actually the Matrix staff can exercise that perogative actually if they decide to at any time I suppose).
But no one is going sympathise with a poster that can't tell the difference between an interesting notion, and incredibly poor judgement.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Belisarius
- Posts: 3099
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- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
- Contact:
Re: Re: that's it!
Moscow would be my bet. Even Churchill wouldn't have been too upset about that. Apart from the whole Allied and "unconditional surrender" thing that is.Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico
"that's it!"
If the Germans got the bomb in 1945 they would use it on London.
Hmm... is Egg thoroughly sarcastic, or what does he try to say?
Got StuG?
Actually, yeah, I would say he would have used it on Moscow first, and then London. Russia was at the time the far greater threat, and a speed end to the war in the east would have allowed Hitler to turn his full attention to dealing with the British.
Egg is indeed a mystery. The mystery of the Egg, whose memorable quotes include
and and 
. Hmmm.
Egg is indeed a mystery. The mystery of the Egg, whose memorable quotes include
and and . Hmmm. "They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
This thread is in the Hall of Fame?
Well, OK, but we're getting into science fiction, what with Germany getting the A-bomb. IF the "Ragnarok project", or the "Valhalla project", whatever you want to call it, had come into existence, then how would it have been delivered? The V2? OK, then. The first target would not have been London or Moscow. I believe the first would've been New York. This would be "the warning shot", as it were, to force a diplomatic settlement. If the German rocket scientists realized the long-lasting effects of radioactivity, then they wouldn't be stupid enough to unleash it on territory close enough to spread the radioactive "cloud" over Germany.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
The subject of "what if" is always appealing. Usually even the beginner wargamer can participate and feel capable.
Of course the topic matter often wanders into the realm of barely realistic.
For those that want to investigate some more tangible discussion on "what if" possiblities with an eye to the more credible...
I have a book titled (not surprisingly) WHAT IF? Strategic alternatives of WW2 edited by Haorold Deutsch and Dennis Showater from The Emporer's Press 1997 (in hardcover).
In spite of the title, it doesn't wander into flights of fancy, but actually breaks down the actual potential variables of the various parts of the war.
I have read a great many books, but this one gets my nod as being the best literature on realitic alternative possibilities.
When it's all said and down, many of the What Ifs will always be just hindsight based musings of pure fantasy to some extent.
Most of history was not planned in the slightest. It was never deliberate, and assuming the participants were making concious choices is just not going to wash.
Sometimes very bad ideas had very favourable results in retrospect. Good ideas don't always have benefitial results.
Being at the wrong place at the right time is the same as being at the right place at the wrong time.
Brilliant Generals are often just individuals that were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. And often it was not their chosing that put them there, but anothers.
Of course the topic matter often wanders into the realm of barely realistic.
For those that want to investigate some more tangible discussion on "what if" possiblities with an eye to the more credible...
I have a book titled (not surprisingly) WHAT IF? Strategic alternatives of WW2 edited by Haorold Deutsch and Dennis Showater from The Emporer's Press 1997 (in hardcover).
In spite of the title, it doesn't wander into flights of fancy, but actually breaks down the actual potential variables of the various parts of the war.
I have read a great many books, but this one gets my nod as being the best literature on realitic alternative possibilities.
When it's all said and down, many of the What Ifs will always be just hindsight based musings of pure fantasy to some extent.
Most of history was not planned in the slightest. It was never deliberate, and assuming the participants were making concious choices is just not going to wash.
Sometimes very bad ideas had very favourable results in retrospect. Good ideas don't always have benefitial results.
Being at the wrong place at the right time is the same as being at the right place at the wrong time.
Brilliant Generals are often just individuals that were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. And often it was not their chosing that put them there, but anothers.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Zen and the art of SPWAW & history
Being at the wrong place at the right time is the same as being at the right place at the wrong time.
Sounds very zen! Especially in a context like when you've got a King Tiger, on a hilltop, and your opponent happens to get off a lucky shot from an M4 Sherman with the low velocity gun and *destroys* the King. :rolleyes:
But seriously, if New York had been the prime target for Germany's A-bomb, what would the delivery system have been? Sure, the V-2 was sophisticated enough that it could regularly hit London, and especially when used in vast quantities it was a good terror weapon (if there is such a thing as a "good" terror weapon). However, without sophisticated intertial guidance systems, computers and whatnot, I don't see them as being able to hit NYC, which is a lot further away than London or even Moskow. Look at how innaccurate the Iraqi Scud missiles were during Desert Storm, and there we are talking at least 1960's technology.
Another way would have been if Germany's long-range bomber program came through, which it didn't, or the Graf Zeppelin was completed and somehow loaded up with naval bombers and brought to within striking distance of NYC, and even then I doubt there would have been bombers with a payload capacity large enough to carry the bomb--remember, it took B-29's (!) to carry the US A-bombs to Japan. Finally, even if Germany did have a long range bomber capable of striking the US, would they have been able to penetrate US airspace? Especially if, say, the US had the later version Mustang, Black Widow, etc, by that point--say 1944? The only way I could see it having been feasible would have been if Germany had developed heavy jet bombers capable of flying at 35,000ft+ earlly in the war, say 1940-42 or so, and had made the Me-262 capable of long, long-range escort missions. Or alternatively, had come up with a bomber which flies in ocean ground-effect like 50 feet above the waves like that Russian number from the 60's.
But I guess they could have developed a super-U-boat that could have launched V-2's from right off of Long Island. I nominate Jurgen Prochnow to play the tense, sweaty captain. And perhaps Denzel Washington to be the executive officer... :p
Sounds very zen! Especially in a context like when you've got a King Tiger, on a hilltop, and your opponent happens to get off a lucky shot from an M4 Sherman with the low velocity gun and *destroys* the King. :rolleyes:
But seriously, if New York had been the prime target for Germany's A-bomb, what would the delivery system have been? Sure, the V-2 was sophisticated enough that it could regularly hit London, and especially when used in vast quantities it was a good terror weapon (if there is such a thing as a "good" terror weapon). However, without sophisticated intertial guidance systems, computers and whatnot, I don't see them as being able to hit NYC, which is a lot further away than London or even Moskow. Look at how innaccurate the Iraqi Scud missiles were during Desert Storm, and there we are talking at least 1960's technology.
Another way would have been if Germany's long-range bomber program came through, which it didn't, or the Graf Zeppelin was completed and somehow loaded up with naval bombers and brought to within striking distance of NYC, and even then I doubt there would have been bombers with a payload capacity large enough to carry the bomb--remember, it took B-29's (!) to carry the US A-bombs to Japan. Finally, even if Germany did have a long range bomber capable of striking the US, would they have been able to penetrate US airspace? Especially if, say, the US had the later version Mustang, Black Widow, etc, by that point--say 1944? The only way I could see it having been feasible would have been if Germany had developed heavy jet bombers capable of flying at 35,000ft+ earlly in the war, say 1940-42 or so, and had made the Me-262 capable of long, long-range escort missions. Or alternatively, had come up with a bomber which flies in ocean ground-effect like 50 feet above the waves like that Russian number from the 60's.
But I guess they could have developed a super-U-boat that could have launched V-2's from right off of Long Island. I nominate Jurgen Prochnow to play the tense, sweaty captain. And perhaps Denzel Washington to be the executive officer... :p
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
Well the japs had a carrier sub and if they had traded tech with the germans I think it wouldn't be that hard to make a missle sub.
"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris
[img]http://publish.hometown.aol.com/kenkbar ... tual-b-o-b
-Edmund Morris
[img]http://publish.hometown.aol.com/kenkbar ... tual-b-o-b
True, true. Probably the Germans could have come up with a carrier sub by themselves, too. My issue is with the guidance systems, mostly. Launching a V-2 from a base in Denmark or Holland is one thing, when it only has to go like 40 miles to hit London. But from the rolling mass of a sub? Especially with no computer or onboard guidance system to compensate for wind, etc--plus the bomb was extremely heavy, and I don't think (not sure) but weren't the V-2 payloads pretty light?
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
Well so you sail into a bay or cove and launch. That would be calmer. Might not be deep enough though.
"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris
[img]http://publish.hometown.aol.com/kenkbar ... tual-b-o-b
-Edmund Morris
[img]http://publish.hometown.aol.com/kenkbar ... tual-b-o-b
OK, let's take "What if" to its logical ? extremes...
This was done in some classic "Saturday Night Live" skits. Anyone remember Dan Aykroyd as "Uberman"? What if Superman had fought for the Germans? "Uberman" takes Stalingrad! What about "What if Napoleon had B-52s at Waterloo?" Come on, the nuclear weapon issue for Germany belongs in that same absurdist category. What if the nuclear carrier "Nimitz" found itself off Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41? Oh, yeah, that happened in "The Final Countdown". Remember that film, anyone? It even had Kirk Douglas in it.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
I would like to find that book Les. Didn't Con Trotter from PC gamer do an actical on it?
"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris
[img]http://publish.hometown.aol.com/kenkbar ... tual-b-o-b
-Edmund Morris
[img]http://publish.hometown.aol.com/kenkbar ... tual-b-o-b
I like your book Sarge. I just haven't yet read enough books about the REAL WW2 to justify reading about fictional outcomes!
I'll add it to my list, though!
I'll add it to my list, though!
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.