Zero early war advantage

[JeffroK]

My biggest problem is that for roughly the first 6 mths I've got very few Allied P-40 or Hurris and my F4F are on fragile carriers so wherever Zeke wants to go I let him.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Big B

You know, as a veteran of many years of these A6M vs F4F/P-40 debates, the one thing I am struck with is this pattern:

My first month on the WiTP Forum, I unwittingly started such a hot-button debate. I was stunned at how quickly it devolved. Terminus was actually polite to me, explaining the topics that inevitably spiral out of control: A6M vs F4F, Sherman vs Panther, Iowa vs Yamato and anything to do with the Bismarck.

There is always good information brought up in these discussion, but the rancor is offputting...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

My biggest problem is that for roughly the first 6 mths I've got very few Allied P-40 or Hurris and my F4F are on fragile carriers so wherever Zeke wants to go I let him.

Too true

[crsutton]

Hmmmmm....So far, I have seen the words "idiot" and "troll" thrown around in this thread. I am taking bets. How many more posts before somebody call somebody else a "nazi" and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket..[:(]

In game terms, so far I have not seen much difference between the zero, wildcat and P40. None of them seem to dominate in combat with all other conditions being equal. My early war disasters were due to being outnumbered and facing better pilots. I think the designers pretty much got that right and cannot complain.

If I have a complaint it is with the zero, tojo and oscar having a service rating of just one-over the higher service ratings for Allied planes. This is in effect the "zero bonus" of AE. It allows the Japanese player to get planes back in action much faster and supress an equal number of Allied fighters in just a few days. No real historical basis for this and as far as I am concerned, it is just as valuable to the Japanese player as the zero bonus was in WIPT...and it lasts very deep into the game.

[Rainer]

but the rancor is offputting...

I fully agree.
Some (very few) want it that way [8|]
We should not feed them.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hmmmmm....So far, I have seen the words "idiot" and "troll" thrown around in this thread. I am taking bets. How many more posts before somebody call somebody else a "nazi" and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket..[:(]

In game terms, so far I have not seen much difference between the zero, wildcat and P40. None of them seem to dominate in combat with all other conditions being equal. My early war disasters were due to being outnumbered and facing better pilots. I think the designers pretty much got that right and cannot complain.

If I have a complaint it is with the zero, tojo and oscar having a service rating of just one-over the higher service ratings for Allied planes. This is in effect the "zero bonus" of AE. It allows the Japanese player to get planes back in action much faster and supress an equal number of Allied fighters in just a few days. No real historical basis for this and as far as I am concerned, it is just as valuable to the Japanese player as the zero bonus was in WIPT...and it lasts very deep into the game.

My understanding is the A6M was very reliable. I don't know about the other two. It was the lack of support units, including trained mechanics, that led to decline in operational readiness as the Japanese perimeter expanded. Having played both sides, this seems to be well modeled in the game.

The two aircraft that raise my eyebrows most are the Hurricane and the Tojo. Even with my best pilots and mass, I cannot achieve anything close to the historical kill ratios of oscars vs hurricanes. Indeed, the Hurricane also does very well against A6Ms. I recall reading in Shore, an RAF pliot commenting during the defense of Java: that a Zero could outturn and outclimb a Buffalo, but at least a Buffalo could outdive the A6M while the Hurricane could not outturn, outclimb or outdive the A6M. Additionally, the large chin radiator on the tropical Hurricane was very vulnerable to even machinegun fire.

The Tojo I have not studied very closely, but boy does it do well in the game...

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Big B

You know, as a veteran of many years of these A6M vs F4F/P-40 debates, the one thing I am struck with is this pattern:

My first month on the WiTP Forum, I unwittingly started such a hot-button debate. I was stunned at how quickly it devolved. Terminus was actually polite to me, explaining the topics that inevitably spiral out of control: A6M vs F4F, Sherman vs Panther, Iowa vs Yamato and anything to do with the Bismarck.

There is always good information brought up in these discussion, but the rancor is offputting...

.50 cal vs. 20mm was one of my favorites.

[mdiehl]

The A6M was quite good at what it was designed to do - but so were the Allied aircraft. Therefore it logically follows that the course of events were dictated by other factors of a tactical and strategic nature...

I don't know why that is so hard to grasp?...

And yet it seems hard for some people to grasp. It's almost as though for ZFBs that there is some sort of personal revulsion in conceding a point... as though the ideological commitment to the myth is more important than an accurate historical treatment.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Big B

You know, as a veteran of many years of these A6M vs F4F/P-40 debates, the one thing I am struck with is this pattern:

My first month on the WiTP Forum, I unwittingly started such a hot-button debate. I was stunned at how quickly it devolved. Terminus was actually polite to me, explaining the topics that inevitably spiral out of control: A6M vs F4F, Sherman vs Panther, Iowa vs Yamato and anything to do with the Bismarck.

There is always good information brought up in these discussion, but the rancor is offputting...

Dont forget the .50 cal. [:D]

[mdiehl]

Dont forget the .50 cal.

I think I missed that one. (Breath of great relief! [8D])

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Dont forget the .50 cal.

I think I missed that one. (Breath of great relief! [8D])

I don't think Terminus included that one in his guidance to me, but I did have the privilege of seeing one of those threads go horribly wrong...

[mdiehl]

Well, I don't know about YOU, [:'(] ... [ducking now] ... but I am just glad that none of those Zeroes had .50cal!!!! [;)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hmmmmm....So far, I have seen the words "idiot" and "troll" thrown around in this thread. I am taking bets. How many more posts before somebody call somebody else a "nazi" and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket..[:(]

In game terms, so far I have not seen much difference between the zero, wildcat and P40. None of them seem to dominate in combat with all other conditions being equal. My early war disasters were due to being outnumbered and facing better pilots. I think the designers pretty much got that right and cannot complain.

If I have a complaint it is with the zero, tojo and oscar having a service rating of just one-over the higher service ratings for Allied planes. This is in effect the "zero bonus" of AE. It allows the Japanese player to get planes back in action much faster and supress an equal number of Allied fighters in just a few days. No real historical basis for this and as far as I am concerned, it is just as valuable to the Japanese player as the zero bonus was in WIPT...and it lasts very deep into the game.

My understanding is the A6M was very reliable. I don't know about the other two. It was the lack of support units, including trained mechanics, that led to decline in operational readiness as the Japanese perimeter expanded. Having played both sides, this seems to be well modeled in the game.

The two aircraft that raise my eyebrows most are the Hurricane and the Tojo. Even with my best pilots and mass, I cannot achieve anything close to the historical kill ratios of oscars vs hurricanes. Indeed, the Hurricane also does very well against A6Ms. I recall reading in Shore, an RAF pliot commenting during the defense of Java: that a Zero could outturn and outclimb a Buffalo, but at least a Buffalo could outdive the A6M while the Hurricane could not outturn, outclimb or outdive the A6M. Additionally, the large chin radiator on the tropical Hurricane was very vulnerable to even machinegun fire.

The Tojo I have not studied very closely, but boy does it do well in the game...

Yes remarkably simple and fairly easy to work on. That is why the devs went with the one service rating. However, it game it serves to reverse the actual conditions in the war where cronic parts shortages and lack of skilled mechanics hindered the Japanese much so more than the Allies. The Allies were (and they has some early problems as well) much better at keeping aircraft repaired and in the air. If you really wanted to recreat the historical situation, I would give Allied planes (in line engines) a service rating of 2 in 42 but change to one in mid 43. Japanese planes (zeros, oscars and tojos would get a service rating of one for half of 42 and the gradually go up until they are at around 8 or nine by wars end. [;)] I suppose it is the way it is for balance more than anything else but it is definitely the "zero bonus" in AE in my opinion.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hmmmmm....So far, I have seen the words "idiot" and "troll" thrown around in this thread. I am taking bets. How many more posts before somebody call somebody else a "nazi" and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket..[:(]

In game terms, so far I have not seen much difference between the zero, wildcat and P40. None of them seem to dominate in combat with all other conditions being equal. My early war disasters were due to being outnumbered and facing better pilots. I think the designers pretty much got that right and cannot complain.

If I have a complaint it is with the zero, tojo and oscar having a service rating of just one-over the higher service ratings for Allied planes. This is in effect the "zero bonus" of AE. It allows the Japanese player to get planes back in action much faster and supress an equal number of Allied fighters in just a few days. No real historical basis for this and as far as I am concerned, it is just as valuable to the Japanese player as the zero bonus was in WIPT...and it lasts very deep into the game.

My understanding is the A6M was very reliable. I don't know about the other two. It was the lack of support units, including trained mechanics, that led to decline in operational readiness as the Japanese perimeter expanded. Having played both sides, this seems to be well modeled in the game.

The two aircraft that raise my eyebrows most are the Hurricane and the Tojo. Even with my best pilots and mass, I cannot achieve anything close to the historical kill ratios of oscars vs hurricanes. Indeed, the Hurricane also does very well against A6Ms. I recall reading in Shore, an RAF pliot commenting during the defense of Java: that a Zero could outturn and outclimb a Buffalo, but at least a Buffalo could outdive the A6M while the Hurricane could not outturn, outclimb or outdive the A6M. Additionally, the large chin radiator on the tropical Hurricane was very vulnerable to even machinegun fire.

The Tojo I have not studied very closely, but boy does it do well in the game...

Yes remarkably simple and fairly easy to work on. That is why the devs went with the one service rating. However, it game it serves to reverse the actual conditions in the war where cronic parts shortages and lack of skilled mechanics hindered the Japanese much so more than the Allies. The Allies were (and they has some early problems as well) much better at keeping aircraft repaired and in the air. If you really wanted to recreat the historical situation, I would give Allied planes (in line engines) a service rating of 2 in 42 but change to one in mid 43. Japanese planes (zeros, oscars and tojos would get a service rating of one for half of 42 and the gradually go up until they are at around 8 or nine by wars end. [;)] I suppose it is the way it is for balance more than anything else but it is definitely the "zero bonus" in AE in my opinion.

Perhaps the answer lies in giving the Japanese fewer aviation support squads?

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Perhaps the answer lies in giving the Japanese fewer aviation support squads?

Da Babes mods do this already. (they reduce Allied AV as well)

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
One can't help but wonder what part of the fact that it was the inexperienced Allied pilots in F4Fs and P40s that fought the Japanese to a standstill is too complicated for them to grasp.

Only a true idiot would describe what happened in early 42 in the SRA as a standstill.

Moving the goalposts to "early 42"?

The Allies were deploying inexperienced pilots in F4Fs and P40s throughout '42 (and beyond).

If the Japs were superior in both man & machine then why did their asskicking begin so soon, Panzerjaieger Hortlund?

Thanks for standing up for the points I made, but I would prefer you don't quote the likes of PJH, Terminus or Nikademus as I green buttoned them long ago to avoid thier inflammatory personal insults that the board moderators seem determined to let them get away with on a regular basis. If the mods had any integrity whatsoever the three of them would have been banned long, long ago. [:-]