GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (Ketza Welcome)

[Klydon]

I would not worry too much about upgrading aircraft as it does it automatically as the game goes along.

As far as what is the "good stuff" for the Russians, for fighters, anything starting with an "I" is garbage. Yak-1's are a little better, but don't bother. Lagg, Yak, and Mig are the way to go. I would go Lagg and Yak first as they continue on while Migs do not. For 2 engine bombers PE2 and IL4. Put your TB3 on night missions and in VVS airbases (they will be used to resupply your partisans). IL-2 are the big ground support monsters for you. Everything else is old or junk.

[TulliusDetritus]

And according to the wiki thing, you might want to bring U-2VS (night tactical bombers). To harass the enemy, at least that's what the wiki guide says. Short range so they should be close to the front, like the IL-2s (put them together on the same SAD base).

[76mm]

Cool, thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know. Finished Turn 43, mud, nothing exciting. More soon...

[76mm]

Just finished Turn 45. During Turn 44 I sent all of my planes back to the National Reserve in an effort to get them sorted out. I brought them back this turn, but was surprised how few I had. For instance, I found that I didn't have enough fighters to give all of my fronts a full complement of fighter air groups, even using the old junk. (by full complement I mean 9 air groups which are in good shape per air base.

Same problem, but less severe, with tactical bombers.

I seem to have plenty of level bombers.

Any, after seeing this mess, I checked my aircraft losses (for the first time, I might add), here are the results:


Pretty massive numbers! The good thing is it looks like planes are being cranked out at a pretty good pace:

I want to grind the Luftwaffe into the dust, and want to get started ASAP.

I have been complaining for some time about the lack of partisan supply flights, which was finally fixed in the last patch. Here are the results, after 1 or 2 turns of normal supply flights:


Results in other sectors were also gratifying, but not as dramatic.

After next turns I will post some thoughts on the upcoming campaign, my planned defensive strategy, etc., so stayed tuned!

[Aussiematto]

ORIGINAL: 76mm


I have been complaining for some time about the lack of partisan supply flights, which was finally fixed in the last patch.

Yep. it has been fixed. I have been getting something like 10 partisan units to deal with / turn in 1.04 compared to 3-4 in 1.03. (I am playing Axis). It's a little frustrating, since I'd scaled back my garrisons somewhat and now haven't got anything to put back there. I keep looking mournfully at all those frozen allied troops and nothing seems to rouse them from their dream-like sliumber, not even the thought of beating up on Russian partisans and drinking vodka in such well known holiday towns as Gomel, Chernigov and Poltava.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: majeloz

...not even the thought of beating up on Russian partisans and drinking vodka in such well known holiday towns as Gomel, Chernigov and Poltava.

Funny you should say, I might go to Poltava this weekend. I'll be on the lookout for partisans.

[76mm]

Just finished Turn 46, mud turn. Spent alot of time with the air forces again.

I mentioned last time that on Turn 44 I sent all of my aircraft to the National Reserve. On Turn 45 I tried to send them back out to airbases, but found that I had very few planes. This turn I went back to the National Reserve, and there were lots of planes, not sure what is going on. For instance, I mentioned that last turn I could not even give each front one airbase with a full complement of fighters. By the end of this turn, each front had at least two, and some had three. I guess some of the fighters I sent back to the NR on Turn 44 were not avail on Turn 45 for some reason?

Anyway, after doing some reading on the forum (a useful but sometimes dangerous practice), I launched several bombing raids on his airbases, and they were an unmitigated disaster. Think 1-2 German planes lost vs 30-40 Sov planes. Not sure if I'll be repeating that again.

Also, I have not seen my planes fly even a single interdiction attack yet...are my air doctrine settings screwed up?

Did more recon after getting my recon planes back from the NR; he has one major troop concentration between Kharkov and Stalino, but other than that, I could not find any evidence of massing for an attack. Either my air recon is just awful (possible) or he has pulled many units way back, out of air recon range, to refit and will rail them back once we are closer to the campaign season.

I have been shuffling forces around in the Crimea, trying to hold it as long as possible. He has sat tight for the last couple of mud turns, but during the first clear turn I expect he'll try to blow things out. I actually disbanded a couple of level 4 forts on the approaches to the Crimea, because I need the accompanying rifle units elsewhere, and he had Romanians poised to take the forts in the first clear weather turn. These forts combined had about 10k men and 400 artillery, which I didn't want to surrender, so I disbanded.

[76mm]

OK, get ready for a major whine-fest...

I opened Turn 47 from Ketza, a clear turn, and immediately saw this:


His units, which started several hexes behind his lines, had penetrated several hexes through a fairly heavily fortified carpet defense. Most of the hexes were fairly lightly defended, with one defending unit, but I was surprised that he had penetrated so far, given the circumstances.

So I looked at the various battle results. There were 28 battles, I had exactly one Hold at the very end, the rest Retreats or Routs. How could this be?

I then looked at the CV value for each of the 28 battles, and here is what I found:



You'll see that in the 28 battles, on average, his CVs gained 48% and mine lost 69%. This means that if a battle started at 100 CV vs 100 CV (ie, 1:1), it would have ended at 148 CV to 31 CV, or almost 5:1. This was not a bad die roll or two, this was over twenty eight battles, it is a systemic issue. In many battles, I lost ~90% of my CV, and when he took Kharkov, defended by 930 CV, with 261 CV, I lost 97% of my CV.

Frankly, I am not sure that I am willing to continue this game after this. Why do I bother trying to establish a defense? Why bother digging in? I mean really? The complexion of the entire 1942 campaign is now different, because I'll either have lost, or have to withdraw from, a huge number of fortified hexes. Basically, it will be 1941 all over again.

He ran roughshod over several armies, including one of my stronger armies, so it is not an issue of a bad commander or two.

I thought I knew more or less how to play this game, but now I don't think so. What the h@ll am I supposed to do to keep from losing 98% percent of my CVs in some battles, or an average of 69% over 28 battles? It is very possible that I'm doing something terribly wrong, but I would sure like to know what it is, because it is hard to get motivated to spend much more time on this game when it is apparently beyond my comprehension...

[Ridgeway]

How much air, artillery and pioneers were committed on each side for those battles? I am curious to see how the numbers ended up the way they did (at least for a couple of the battles -- 28 might be a bit overkill [;)])

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: 76mm


I then looked at the CV value for each of the 28 battles, and here is what I found:


You'll see that in the 28 battles, on average, his CVs gained 48% and mine lost 69%. This means that if a battle started at 100 CV vs 100 CV (ie, 1:1), it would have ended at 148 CV to 31 CV, or almost 5:1. This was not a bad die roll or two, this was over twenty eight battles, it is a systemic issue. In many battles, I lost ~90% of my CV, and when he took Kharkov, defended by 930 CV, with 261 CV, I lost 97% of my CV.

Frankly, I am not sure that I am willing to continue this game after this. Why do I bother trying to establish a defense? Why bother digging in? I mean really? The complexion of the entire 1942 campaign is now different, because I'll either have lost, or have to withdraw from, a huge number of fortified hexes. Basically, it will be 1941 all over again.

He ran roughshod over several armies, including one of my stronger armies, so it is not an issue of a bad commander or two.

I thought I knew more or less how to play this game, but now I don't think so. What the h@ll am I supposed to do to keep from losing 98% percent of my CVs in some battles, or an average of 69% over 28 battles? It is very possible that I'm doing something terribly wrong, but I would sure like to know what it is, because it is hard to get motivated to spend much more time on this game when it is apparently beyond my comprehension...

I noticed something similar in my last turn july '42 in 41 GC with 1.04.11 where I'm soviet. However the changes seemed to be in my favour bar in 1 of only 2 holds I got in 19 attacks. I didn't check as thoroughly as you so i may be exaggerating tho' will note more carefully in my next turn. Can't be anything to do with commanders per se as Germans will be better but unless it's random perhaps its pro attacker issue.

On the other hand I did have 1 attack the previous turn where my attack CV of 223 million (sic) got modified down to only 30K IIRC which is a far bigger loss than you had[:D]. Still managed to get a retreat tho despite german apparently having a fort value of over 2000. Maybe it's just a display problem.

I did post on tech support.

[76mm]

No other thoughts? Seriously, I dont know if I want to continue this game if I don't understand what is going on. Is this normal? If so, how am I supposed to defend?

I have not had time to go back and check on pioneers, etc but would they effect my CVs so much?

[TulliusDetritus]

76mm, Sabre clearly said it on my AAR like one month ago. Carpet defences CAN be destroyed in one turn [;)] PDH confirmed this. Maybe you could try successive defensive lines [:)] On 1942 that's what I will be doing, I guess, just to experiment.

[Klydon]

I think you need to sit back a bit and realize where you are in the campaign and what the time frame is. I have to be somewhat careful of what I say because I have been reading his AAR.

My point is the Axis still has over 3 million in the field. With winter, the Germans are going to hide units in cities and refit them, etc. He had rested fresh troops with good supply lines decide to take apart a section of your line. Isn't that exactly what happen in 1942?

In 1941, the Germans had the ability to attack across the entire front and make progress. In 1942, the Germans were able to attack across the front of an army group and make progress. It wasn't until 1943 that the Russians were able to offer stiff resistance and hold FRESH German units to "minimal" gains.

I understand your frustration with how the combat values got tanked. I don't understand it real well myself, but I understand the result and that is you got attacked by a lot of fresh German troops and they made progress.

You are on the verge of getting infantry corps. The Germans are going to get their limited offense and you are going to wind up getting your butt kicked in certain parts of the theater, but it won't be everywhere. You need to be thinking about where you can apply pressure yourself where he is trying to keep it "quiet" and also look to let the Germans wear themselves down over a period of time while you build up your reserves and then you get to drop the hammer on him at some point.

Hang in there. Your army is in good shape, but so is his. 1942 should be a more even contest, but the Germans still get to dictate where the action is at the start.

[76mm]

I understand that his troops are fresh, and that his CVs will be high. That's fine. What I don't understand, and find more difficult to accept, is that my CVs are essentially meaningless. How am I supposed to make any plans whatsoever? And my CVs are already very low, the only way I could boost them was by digging in for the last several months.

Klydon, I appreciate what you're saying, and I am very probably overreacting, but rather than just saying "gee, his troops are fresh, so your CVs will drop by 90%+ and his already high CVs will increase by 50%", could someone please explain the specific mechanisms by which this happens? BTW, the same thing happened a few turns ago when he broke into the Crimea. I thought that was a fluke, but now it is clear that it was not--this is how the system works. I could see if CVs occasionally dropped by this amount, but for 28 battles to average a 69% CV loss for me (along a 48% gain for him), with no explanation whatsoever, is not really acceptable to me--I'm not really interested in playing if I have absolutely no comprehension of what is going on under the hood. Again, if there is some rational mechanism at work here, if someone can give at least a partial explanation, I will then try to plan accordingly.

I should also add that I am frustrated with the lack of interdiction. I specifically reinforced the air force in this sector, and changed my air doctrine to a 200% setting for interdiction, thinking that interdiction would be critical in a situation like this. In an e-mail, Ketza said that there was basically no interdiction, maybe an attack on an HQ or airbase or two. Again, there is probably some explanation, but when you have no idea what it is it gets rather frustrating...

TD, sorry, but I have thought about this considerably and do not think that successive lines are the answer against a fresh enemy. All they do is allow the enemy to blast through each line more easily, along with more opportunities for pockets. What specific advantages do you see in successive lines? If I had had a thinner line, he would already be ten hexes behind my lines rather than still barely contained. [EDIT: OK, MAYBE 5-6 RATHER THAN 10, BUT SAME DIFFERENCE.]

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: fiva55

Yeah the halving of CV is pretty annoying, check this out.



Interesting AAR btw, good luck resisting the Germans. [:D]

But if you just look at the force levels involved perhaps the more suprising figure is that odds were only 2.3 to 1

Seem to me the CV values are dud, not the combat result.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
My point is the Axis still has over 3 million in the field. With winter, the Germans are going to hide units in cities and refit them, etc. He had rested fresh troops with good supply lines decide to take apart a section of your line. Isn't that exactly what happen in 1942?

In 1941, the Germans had the ability to attack across the entire front and make progress. In 1942, the Germans were able to attack across the front of an army group and make progress. It wasn't until 1943 that the Russians were able to offer stiff resistance and hold FRESH German units to "minimal" gains.

The issue is that based on what I've seen so far, he will be able to launch attacks all along the front, not just in one sector.

His fresh units were generally able to achieve final odds in excess of 8:1 in these attacks; his worn units (which actually seem to be in pretty fine shape themselves) should easily be able to achieve odds of at least 2:1. When my CVs are reduced by 90%+ on a regular basis, it hardly matters what his CVs are, if he attacks he will win. When he took Kharkov, his initial odds were almost 1:4, and he ended up with almost 11:1! And all of this was against entrenched positions; now that my fortifs are either gone or will have to be abandoned to avoid pockets, as far as I can tell he will be able to attack at will all across this front.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

But if you just look at the force levels involved perhaps the more suprising figure is that odds were only 2.3 to 1

Seem to me the CV values are dud, not the combat result.

Perhaps in that instance, but so should we just simply ignore CVs altogether?

[Tarhunnas]

On the general issue of German capabilities vs the Soviets in early 1942, I have not played this far with a 1941 GC, what I can say from my experience in the 1942 GC is that the Germans can relatively easily make this kind of penetrations in early 1942 if they prepare properly and concentrate on a limited sector of the front.

I would say don't worry. Give ground like in 1941, there is still a lot of room. He is a long way from Stalingrad. You will still be stronger than in 1941, but you cannot expect to be able to build a line that will hold and stop the Krauts cold. You growth rate will still be more than the Germans can kill, so in the autumn you should be able to begin to hit back. Have patience, but expect the occasional disaster in the summer of 1942.

You could read my AAR of the 42-campaign, tm.asp?m=2739973 to see a little of what the Germans can do in early 42. Or there is one by Fiva55 on the same subject. While certainly not corresponding exactly to your situation, the 42 campaign shows in a general way what can be expected from the Germans in 1942.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

But if you just look at the force levels involved perhaps the more suprising figure is that odds were only 2.3 to 1

Seem to me the CV values are dud, not the combat result.

Perhaps in that instance, but so should we just simply ignore CVs altogether?

I have looked some more at Ketza's AAR and the combat results he posted. From what I could see of the state of his forces, knowing what your strengths were from your screenshots, the impression I have is that the actual combat results he got were what I would have expected. I'm increasingly of the view that CV figures don't mean much if anything. I don't think I'm breaking K's confidence by saying that one of his results gave 1 of your inf divs an initial CV of 930.

I think I will ignore CVs in future as they really don't seem to add anything but confusion

[sillyflower]

I have also found in my games that stacks that hold up to 1 attack often suffer badly when attacked again by fresh troops. Kharkov did look as if it was attacked twice - tho' it may have been a recce mission 1st time.

I think your problem goes back to your high losses in summer 41, which resulted in a weaker blizzard offensive which in turn means Germans are stronger than historically now. By contrast your units are still very weak as you have recognised. This means you can't stand up to him yet. IMHO you need to revise your tactics and play the long game.