Lots of tanks, no men

[Tarhunnas]

I can see the point about taking out the resource centers in the Caucasus for the Soviets, event though that effect would be temporary in the game, wouldn't it? But did that gain the Germans very much historically? The occupation was rather short and they did'nt have the time to get anything producing, and I doubt they would have had the rail network to bring much of anything they did produce home to Germany.

I agree with Q-Ball, repeating the advance the Germans did in 1942 in the game is hardly even doable against the AI, much less against a human.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Tarhunnas, could you post a rifle squad summary screenshot as seen in the blizzard survival guide thread, as well as your current OOB.

Thanks.

What is interesting is the Soviets have men and armaments points in the pool.

edit: can you sort by GE only rifle squads.

Ok, here are the Rifle squads, they have just changet to a new rifle squad, so here are the new ones, listed as "Rifle squad".

[Tarhunnas]

And here are the ones with "#Rifle squad".

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Tarhunnas, could you post a rifle squad summary screenshot as seen in the blizzard survival guide thread, as well as your current OOB.

Thanks.

What is interesting is the Soviets have men and armaments points in the pool.

edit: can you sort by GE only rifle squads.

Please explain more about what part of the OOB you want, and I'll do that as well.

[cookie monster]

I guess he means the OOB screen hotkey O.

The list of total forces available for all.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

I guess he means the OOB screen hotkey O.

The list of total forces available for all.

Oh! I didn't think it was that simple...

[karonagames]

And here are the ones with "#Rifle squad".

Is there another "rifle squad" line on the production report, I think at this stage there may be a new model squad and an old model squad.

If this is all the rifle squads you have, you are in big trouble. I notice that you have the Max TOE % set at 100%. This is really not sustainable. In my 1943 campaign with Oleg, I started at 66%, but already in 12 turns, I am having to move it closer to 60%. In the 1944 campaign, 50% will be the max., but there will not be enough men to maintain that.

edit: I also note you have fortified zones - these really are an expensive luxury that should only be considered if your front line infantry divisions have enough manpower. As noted elsewhere the troops in the forts have morale well below average - it is much better to have them in higher morale units.

[karonagames]

The OOB numbers clearly show that the manpower in you pool is hurting you, the 1943 campaign (turn 54 in your game) starts with the Germans having 3,400,000.

There is some debate in the development forum as to what the starter pool for Armaments points should be.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

And here are the ones with "#Rifle squad".

Is there another "rifle squad" line on the production report, I think at this stage there may be a new model squad and an old model squad.

There are two only kinds, the obsolete kind "#Rifle Squad" and the new model "Rifle Squad". I gave the numbers for both above. Then there are the motorized and PzGd, but they are comparatively few in number.

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
If this is all the rifle squads you have, you are in big trouble.

Yeah, I suspected that... [:(]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
I notice that you have the Max TOE % set at 100%. This is really not sustainable. In my 1943 campaign with Oleg, I started at 66%, but already in 12 turns, I am having to move it closer to 60%. In the 1944 campaign, 50% will be the max., but there will not be enough men to maintain that.

I thought it wouldn't matter, as no infantry divisions are up to full strength, and I have no particular area of the front I want to favour. I though the available reinforcements would be spread out. But if it will help me to reduce the TOE, I will do that.

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
edit: I also note you have fortified zones - these really are an expensive luxury that should only be considered if your front line infantry divisions have enough manpower. As noted elsewhere the troops in the forts have morale well below average - it is much better to have them in higher morale units.

They are strictly for digging. I use them to build rear defense lines, I disband them when the enemy comes near. I only have about 10 of them anyway.

Edit: Thanks for your comments and suggestions! I appreciate them and they are very useful and illuminating. If I question things, it is because I want to get a fuller grip and understand things.

[karonagames]

Oops sorry missed the first post. so you have 18k squads which is only just above the danger line. My 1943 campaign with Oleg starts with 30k GE rifle squads, so we need to see if your TOE adjustments can get you back on track over the next few mud turns.

[karonagames]

Taking the Historical gains toward the Caucausus is pretty tough. If missing that means the German production system results in that type of deficit that Tarhunnas is seeing, I'm not optimistic that an "average" game will result in anything other than a collapse in 1944.

I think Tarhunnas has played pretty well, and so his has opponent, which has limited his gains. An alert Soviet player should be able to prevent the Germans from reaching Stalingrad, Mt. Elbrus, et al.

Am I off base?

To be honest, we never did enough testing of 1942, to measure the difference between getting the manpower/resources and not getting them. In the 1941 AARs it was clear that not getting all the manpower centres that were taken historically made a big difference to soviet manpower, but changes were made to throttle this back.

I agree that Tarhunnas did really well and should get some "reward". I really can't say too much because I have seen his opponent's side of things, but if this game continues I think we could see a really interesting and very close game. What I can't tell is if he has left the TOE% management too late to restore his rifle squad numbers. If he can get to 24k and continues to manage his manpower, I think he will be OK.

[gids]

i will crush the imperialistic invader

[ComradeP]

There are no resource production centers in the greater Krasnodar area and the Germans historically didn't really have the time to exploit Maikop's fuel/oil, so I don't see how the Germans would get reduced production by not going into the Caucasus.

Also: holding the Donbas cities for longer than summer 1943/part of the Ukraine until summer 1944 will do much more good to the German armament situation than capturing another single resources production center somewhere in the Soviet Union.

[Q-Ball]

It's a good thing if the Germans have to really focus on the Resources, because they certainly did historically. The fact that all the recoverable resources are down in the Ukraine makes that area even more attractive in terms of German effort.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's a good thing if the Germans have to really focus on the Resources, because they certainly did historically. The fact that all the recoverable resources are down in the Ukraine makes that area even more attractive in terms of German effort.

Agree on that!

I find it a little hard to connect what I actually control on the map with the effects on my production. Are there some easy guidelines?

For example, I assume a resource location att full capacity will produce for example 7 resources, then that equates to 7 of my 129 produced resources. But how do those translate to armament points or tanks or planes?

[ComradeP]

I find it a little hard to connect what I actually control on the map with the effects on my production. Are there some easy guidelines?

I ran some calculations on the production system, which showed that the maximum production at release was highly utopian because it could never be achieved. Partially or mostly due to those calculations, the production system was changed, as now a resource factory point can feed 2 HI factory points, instead of 1.

Do you want me to detail it here or start a thread on it, which might be more convenient?

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I find it a little hard to connect what I actually control on the map with the effects on my production. Are there some easy guidelines?

I ran some calculations on the production system, which showed that the maximum production at release was highly utopian because it could never be achieved. Partially or mostly due to those calculations, the production system was changed, as now a resource factory point can feed 2 HI factory points, instead of 1.

Do you want me to detail it here or start a thread on it, which might be more convenient?

Please, if you have the time! But I think a separate thread might be better.

[ComradeP]

Some quick calculations based on my earlier calculations:

The Axis start with 189 resource production points, that can each supply two HI points or two synthetic fuel points with everything at 100% production. The Germans have 134 heavy industry points in Germany and occupied territories, the minor Axis 34. The Germans have 45 synthetic fuel production locations, the Finns 1.

In 1941, you need ((168/2)+(46/2))=107 resource locations to feed your industry, you have 189 at the start so even if you don't capture anything you're building up a substantial surplus each turn.

There are 27 turns with a logistics phase in 1941, so you store 82x27=2214 resource production points worth of resources, if there's no limit (something I'm not sure of).

In 1942, at 130% heavy industry production, you end up with a de facto requirement for 174 heavy industry locations for the Germans and still 34 for the minor Axis as their industrial output never increases. Synthetic fuel production also increases to an effective 52 synthetic fuel production rounded down, for a total requirement of 260, divided by two that's 130. There are 54 turns with a logistics phase in 1942 I believe, so that's a surplus of 69x54=3726 for a total surplus of 5940. This is still without any captured Soviet resource production. Realistically, you'll normally capture Kirovograd and Krivoi Rog's production in 1941 at the least, and possibly the production further east as well.

In 1943, German and occupied territory heavy industry output goes through the roof and gets a 220% modifier, so their heavy industry output is now 294, rounded down. Synthetic fuel production goes to 61, rounded down. 389/2=194.5, you're running at a loss of 286 for the entire year, which is no problem because that only reduces your surplus to 5654.

In 1944, German output once again increases, this time to 270%, for a total of 361 production rounded down. Synthetic fuel output and also resource requirement is halved in June so let's say that they're producing at roughly 70% or so of their regular production throughout 1944, for a requirement of 33 including the Finnish point. Total: 428/2=214, resulting in a reduction of the surplus by 25x52=1300, so the surplus is now at 4640.

For the 39 turns in 1945, heavy industry output is the same as in 1943, with synthetic fuel production/requirements going down to 12 due to the German synthetic fuel production being divided by 4, for a total of about 357/2=178.5 resulting in a small surplus of 10.5x39=409, which raises the surplus to a highly theoretical 5049x1000 (each resource site produces 1000 tons)=5049000 tons of resources left in the bank at the final turn.

As such, even if you don't capture anything and don't lose resource production/heavy industry due to the Soviets capturing minor Axis countries or parts of Germany, the Axis heavy industry production can be sustained by its resource production in theory.

“Theory” is the key word here as the production system works in mysterious ways.

Heavy industry production and resources are only a small part of the production system, the real limitations are build limits, manpower limits and armament points.

Maybe the resource requirements for heavy industry are now too generous. If you want to see why the heavy industry output was highly utopian at first: don't divide the heavy industry production by 2. Both the resource requirement and the output in supplies were halved, by the way.

[Tarhunnas]

Thanks for the explanation! And armament points, how are they produced?

[ComradeP]

Through the conversion of supplies, they also have a production modifier. Armament point production is where it gets tricky, because supplies (produced by heavy industry) are also used by vehicle production and probably by units, so it's up to the production system to decide where the supplies go. I believe the production system itself (so armament points and vehicle production) has priority for supplies distribution over units, but I'm not entirely sure.

Heavy industry output is pretty straightforward because aside from synthetic fuel production, it's the only thing using resources.