43 GC Soviet side

[hfarrish]

I think my concern is that it is going to end up being (a) not fun and (b) not historical. The German army in 43 was able to hold its position relatively well through to Bagration in June of 44, and that is with all of Hitler's lunacy from Stalingrad on forward. I'm no Manstein, but it seems that if you don't have these huge costly engagements you should have a chance at beating historical in terms of delaying the Soviets. I have yet to see an AAR or report where a German faced a competent Soviet player and was able to do this.

Love the game, but would love it a lot more if the 43 and beyond period (regardless of scenario chosen) worked for the Germans.

Aditia - I'm having fun in mine too, just think it could be better. Where are you date / situation wise? Mine was a 42 campaign so probably plays a bit differently than a 43...

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

I think my concern is that it is going to end up being (a) not fun and (b) not historical. The German army in 43 was able to hold its position relatively well through to Bagration in June of 44,

In less than a year from Zitadelle to Bagration, Germany lost almost whole of the Ukraine! Look at the starting position for 43 GC and compare to 44 GC. They didn't really "hold their position", on the contrary, they sacrificed the area larger than **ANY** country in Europe (except Russia, of course) probably in order to preserve fighting capability of their forces.

Of course, then came Bagration and Normandy and everything went to hell even in Belorussia and Baltics, where they held up pretty well up to then.

However, by the time Bagration started Ukraine was almost completely liberated. That is the monumental task that is in front of me in this game, and it would have to be completed by June 44 in order to "follow history". I am pretty sure my positions, by the time of historic start of Bagration, would be nowehere near historic (ie. they will be worse, from the Soviet perspective).

I am also sure it won't stop many German fanboys from whining anyway [;)]

[hfarrish]

Well, perhaps...I would call myself more of a Soviet fanboy who likes to take the German side on occasion, and I can tell you in my 42 game, with no Stalingrad and no Kursk the German army is in a state of complete disintegration outside of the panzers by August 43. Maybe I'm just the world's worst player, but I doubt that - more likely is that there is something not functioning quite right in the replacement system to keep German divisions in any kind of reasonable fighting shape once combat begins. Also, the reason the Soviet army liberated the Ukraine when it did is that it focused on that region to the exclusion of the North and Center - my armies there have fallen apart under pressure as well. I had a line of forts on the Dnepr all at 3-4 to retreat to, but it's not going to do me any good because I have no units even capable of putting up a minimal defense along that line. It's pretty obvious to me that either (a) the Soviets get way too strong, too fast or (b) the German army does not receive replacements properly. I have hordes of units sitting at 1=1 CVs and a million men in the manpower pool.

I think my opponent (Zort) would even agree - the Soviets should win, and the game should not change the balance of that. That said, as currently structured the Soviet player doesn't even really have to try to do anything special. Just keep building Corps and keep attacking and the German player will crumple. No need to plan a Bagration or any other sophisticated operation, because you can just keep attacking every single turn without pause and the Germans will turn to mush.

[hfarrish]

Also, I really think you need to give the Germans a whirl during this period to see how totally useless your panzers become - any attack against an infantry, motorized or cavalry unit, even if you have 6:1 odds, will net you an even loss of manpower and barely a few more artillery, plus you get the benefit of losing 60 tanks. The only situation where they can do anything other than plug holes is against tank corps that get a bit ahead of themselves. This is panzers at reasonably close to full strength, and good CVs, not weak ones that have been drained by combat. Once they've been through some combat, forget it...

I'm with you that there is a lot of German whining, some not justified, some (blizzard) justified, but I think in this case it's pretty clear that there are issues. Not "broken" but issues.

[hfarrish]

One other thing...I think there's no question that the artillery system for the Soviets is flawed. It's pretty common knowledge that Soviet artillery was massively inefficient, and the whole "7000 guns" thing was really only useful at the outset of a significant offensive...and never would be useful again until re-set up for the next major offensive. There was no flexibility in terms of targeting or anything else. In the game, artillery divisions can just keep moving behind the infantry and week after week concentrate huge quantities of fire on whatever targets happen to be in their way. I know I'm not the most expert person on this board, but this seems rather ahistorical to me.