1.04.11 Klydon (Axis) vs Hfarrish (Soviet) No Hfarrish please

[Tarhunnas]

Nice going in the north!

You seem to be prioritizing taking the Crimea higher than crossing the Dnepr? IMHO there is not much worth taking in the Crimea in game terms (reality is another thing in this case).

Could you tell which turn it is a little more often? I had to go back like 20 posts to and then count forward to figure out what turn you were on.

[Klydon]

Oops on the turn. I guess that would be helpful.  [:)]  I went back through and edited the start of turn 8 screen shots.

Getting across the Dnepr is obviously important. I usually cross over to the south Kiev, but it just didn't work out that way this time around. I think the big encirclement in the river bend to clean out his units slowed me down a bit too much, although it was helpful to get rid of all those units there. I need to work a bit more on the opening to get more elements of 17th army up towards the front faster. Besides the initial assault and mop up, they have not done very much except march. That still may pay off as they will certainly be in action this turn.

I had a tough decision to make with the panzer corps going into the Crimea. I have seen too many AAR's where the Crimea is not taken and becomes this gigantic PITA to the Axis during bad weather and over the winter. After doing recon, etc my thought was his defenses were not really that well prepared yet and I could get the area secured a lot faster now than later. It will take me a couple of turns to get the panzers back out of there, get fuel in them and have them resume the advance, but hopefully I should not have to deal with Crimea issues during the winter, especially if they nerf the Russian amphib. [;)]

My other option was to move them north to help the other panzers, although I still had the same issue (tanks, but no marching infantry to support an assault across the river). While I have played around with a lot of stuff in game, this is my first game against an actual opponent, so I am bound to get some surprises.

One thing is I am shocked by the amount of Russian units running around. I have played the Russians a fair amount and from their side, it doesn't appear they never have enough. Certainly, I don't have the river defenses Hfarrish does in double heavily fortified lines by turn 8. He also made a huge commitment to the Leningrad defenses as well. I think his program of emulating rabbits has been very successful. [:D]

[Ketza]

Watching your AAR closely as I have taken a lot of your advice in the past.

What I have found is the key to a really good bridgehead over the Dnepr in 41 is to actually wait until the infantry catches up so they can blast the hole for the Panzers to exploit. Of course you can still suffer a counterattack but it typically cannot be as concentrated nor be enough to throw you back over the river. In the long run you actually save time and casualties by waiting. The turn or 2 you wait also gives you time to gas up and recover your divisions fighting strength.

Its a tough call to actually wait sometimes but in the case of strong Soviet forces on the Dnepr its better to bring down the hurt then try and finesse it.

I have also found that attacking the Soviet where they have armored divisions on the river is much easier even if they have high CV strength as they crumble completely in a deliberate attack. Just South of Kiev thats what he has in the line and where I would strike.

[Tarhunnas]

I agree with Ketza, the Panzers really are at their best when the infantry can blast a hole for them. Ideally, they should never fight, just exploit!

On the Crimea, I think it adds a lot of negative front. With the current Soviet amphib capability, a creative Sov player can create trouble no end there, easily cutting supply by landing at the bottlencks. And there are only two things worth having there:

Taking Sevastopol will stop the Sovites from making landings west of there, but garrisnoning the Crimea takes just as many, or more, troops than garrisoning Odessa and Constanta.

The industry in Kerch, but that is small fry compared to the industry in the Eastern Ukraine. It should stop producing anyway when the rail line is cut, and as it cannot be evacuated then, you can take it at your leisure in 1942 if you really want to take the Crimea. BTW that is not really realistic, it should be much easier to evacuate heavy industrial machinery by ship than by train, the Soviets did evac some industry from Leningrad on barges on the Ladoga. And any raw materials could be brought by sea if they wanted the place to keep operating.

Just my 2 cents, that's why I bypass the Crimea, but it is a matter of taste of course. I really think there should be more tangible reasons for fighting over the Crimea in the game, both Hitler and the Soviets thought it important.

[Klydon]

Turn 8 AGN end. The Finns continue the push down towards the border while AGN continues the grind against the pile of Russians in and around Leningrad. We succeed in cutting off Leningrad from meaningful land communications and managed to finally drive to the shore of Lake Ilmen, trapping around 9 Russian units. Despite the resources poured into the area, I feel short handed here to get the job done quickly. I would love to pull the armor out to rehab for a couple of turns and send some of it elsewhere, but it would really slow down 16th and 18th army a lot, so the armor will hang around for a bit yet as we secure the lines up to the Volkhov and grind away at Leningrad.

[Klydon]

Turn 8 AGC end. The infantry make good progress in reducing the pocket while we push ahead a bit and break the next river line here and there. The panzers are mostly moved up to the land bridge near the rail head to hang out for their next mission. I probably need to look at running them back down to Mogilev to threaten pushing out or more importantly, going south. However, there could be a method to the madness where they are as they could go north to meet up with the panzers from the Leningrad area for a good sized pocket. Right now, no one has the gas, so it doesn't really matter, but I think I will keep my options open.

[Klydon]

AGS end turn 8.

Back across the river we go, this time in two spots and a little deeper with some infantry support on the east side of the river. He may get some of them kicked back across again, but his fortifications are going away over there, making it easier for me to rebreak the line. With two groupings across, I also threaten an encirclement. The Russians are thick and heavy around here, so even a small encirclement could net quite a few units. Of course, he could attack me quite a bit as well. Progress is made around Kiev to clean out the hexes next to the city, so the city proper can be attacked.

In the Crimea, 11th army sends a infantry corps down to deal with Sevastopol while another corps mops up the surrounded defenders near the entrance. The third corps heads east towards the Russian line. The Panzer corps sucks for gas of course, so they spend most of their time pulling back up with the exception of the panzer division down by Sevastopol. I wipe out the other fortification hex, but can't get any infantry into it, so either I leave the panzer division there or watch Hfarrish push a couple of units into a rough hex and draw out the battle for Sevastopol. By doing this, I have a good shot to finish the job this next turn, but we shall see.

[Klydon]

Turn 8 status of losses, OOB, etc. Only 1.7 million Russians gone so far. I need to hit some pockets and that will be really tough with Hfarrish since he has shown he has been really tough to encircle for the most part. My tank losses reflect the pounding my panzers have been giving (and taking). Aircraft losses have also been fairly heavy and Hfarrish has the Red Air force out to play in several spots, so the air battles have been taking place. My transport situation just sucks since I lost quite a few of those before they got the game patched. The good news is I seem to be doing good on armaments and a bit shaky on manpower. Tanks are going to be behind given the losses I have been taking, etc.

[Klydon]

Updated to 1.04.24 (too bad most of the recon had been done under 1.04.22).

Fast turn around by Hfarrish results in Turn 9 coming up. No surprises in the AGN area. I had left a hole in the pocket, hoping he might be tempted to take the bait and shove a unit out. He did, which will help with pocket reduction since it isn't sitting in a level 3 fort. I need to weigh mopping up that pocket and getting 16th army over to the Volkov to free up all of 18th army to start reducing Leningrad. I will likely try coming in from the SE corner with an eye of cutting the port off before finishing off the city.

Not shown, but the Finns are coming down into contact on the Svir river and also north of Leningrad. It looks like he has conventional units along the river and I also spot a unit up north on the Finnish left flank.

[Klydon]

Turn 9 AGC start.

He pulls back a bit from 2nd Army, despite being in good defensive terrain with level 2 forts. Makes me happy on one hand as 2nd Army is just a screen force and also makes me think that it is going to be really hard to do a big encirclement on him from the Lake of Ilmen area meeting up with AGC panzers from the south. That wasn't going to happen this turn anyway, but could have been on the table for next turn.

Here again, he oozes out of some openings I left in the pocket, which should make pocket mop up a bit easier. Instead of fighting his troops in level 3 forts, I get them in the open.

The plan here is to probably to try to liquidate the pocket and grind ahead. I will have to decide what to do with the panzers. The two plans I have in mind are to continue to grind forward past Smolensk and then hook up north to meet up with AGN panzers coming down next turn or to go back down north of Gomel and threaten a drive to the SE to meet with the bridgeheads on the Dnepr. The Desna is a issue to make that happen however.

[Klydon]

Turn 9 AGS start.

The Russians manage to kick XXXXVI Panzer back across the river in the bridgehead near Kiev and a infantry division in the other bridgehead. An attack on XXXXVIII panzer fails miserably with 500 losses for the Germans compared to over 8k losses for the Russians. The good news for the Germans is both bridgeheads still exist and several fortifications are gone, so we should be able to enlarge the bridgeheads. Note the Russians switch defenses and roll out the red carpet to help blunt any deep drives or big encirclements.

The Crimea is not shown, but Sevastopol now has 3 units in it while XXX corps prepares for the assault.

[Klydon]

Here is the commanders report for the Germans. The first report is all German motorized/panzer formations and it is arranged in ToE order (highest to lowest). As you can see, they have taken a beating as I have been fighting with them a bit more than I should. Note some of the combat records.

The next big frame are the German infantry divisions. This is arranged in combat value order (top to low). I don't have a lot hitting double digits and this is where I am feeling very weak at. Note how many 5, 6 and 7 units I have. They are not necessarily low ToE either, but they are fairly wimpy in many cases. Not sure what the deal is as the German army feels weaker to me than it has in the past.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Not sure what the deal is as the German army feels weaker to me than it has in the past.

More march attrition since a couple of patches back?

BTW Hfarrish seems to be putting up a pretty tough defense!

[Klydon]

I forgot to mention this last turn, but the entire front is hearten to learn the Italians are on the way.

I can't confirm that the Rumanians have accepted delivery of 100,000 Italian rifles (never fired, dropped once) nor can I confirm that the Italians have assured German tank designers that they have installed their tank transmissions correctly (2 speeds forward, 10 reverse). [:D]

[Klydon]

AGN Turn 9 end. Well, whatever plans I had got immediately changed when shockingly the Russian units on the Svir started routing! In talking to Hfarrish, apparently he had depleted units up there and forgot to have them on refit. He felt they would refill and hold since they could not be "attacked". Either way, a painful mistake/miscalculation. It also gives me some insight that I have inflicted very heavy losses on the units in the area for him to consider switching units around like that. It sort of felt like he was getting a bit weaker last turn and after this turn, he is weaker as I did not have to struggle as hard to tear through his defenses, although I did not do a ton.

After finding out the Finns could come across the border, I decided to try to get to the other two ports and shut out Leningrad for sure. The armor just did not have quite enough power left to get the job done, even sending a second corps up there from down south. 18th Army takes a chunk out of the Leningrad defenses with a heavy 8 division attack and is setup to either rip another chunk of the city or attack across the river to pave the way for some panzers to help hasten the end of Leningrad. I should be able to capture the eastern port (and the western port will be blocked as well, so Leningrad will be isolated). 16th army mainly mopped up the Novogrod pocket, but there remains a bit more to do. I also managed to transfer the panzer corps on loan from PG3 to PG4 to help with overloading in both PG3 and also in AGC. AGN has a little more room left and may take Second Army at some point perhaps.

I figure it is going to take a couple more turns to finish up with Leningrad, but if I can get the armor out of the line for a couple of turns, part of it may be available to help AGC out and continue the punishment of the Russian army.

[Klydon]

AGC turn 9 end. The Russians appear to be weakening here as well. I cleaned out the pocket along the river and moved the infantry back up to the line. Good progress on the land bridge and south of the land bridge (and where routed troops went) called for a impromptu encirclement of Smolensk. I manage to overrun some Russian airfields as well.

Further south, I poked some bridgeheads over the river defense line. The units here are not as well fortified and seem weaker, but then my infantry isn't so hot either. If nothing else, he has to start paying attention to the middle again. The rail heads have caught up to the front, so that will help as well from a logistical standpoint of view.

[Klydon]

AGS turn 9 end.

I enlarge both bridge heads across the river here. Both have armor and infantry across the river and some buffer. I think I am across to stay in both spots. Kiev is occupied without firing a shot, which is fine with me as it freed up quite a bit of infantry to go help with the bridgehead. Troops moved up to contact both Z and D town, but their industry is long gone along with Poltava being empty as well. Sevastopol falls to XXX corps. The Panzer corps withdraws out of the Crimea to come up south of Z town and in a position to follow in behind 11th army and go around behind the river bend. They don't have jack for gas this turn however, but that can change next turn. I would like to get to the Stalino area, but I don't know that it will happen quite yet.

I plan on sending the two static divisions I got this turn to the Crimea for occupation duty along with some Rumanian troops as well. I still have 1 corps of 11th Army down there and it is tempting to go over and not only clear out Kerch but see about getting across the straits. I just don't see how getting across the straits during 1941 is going to be supported logistically really and those that have tried it usually see it go pretty bad during mud and over the winter. I will see about taking out Kerch and then digging in and waiting for the Russian naval invasions to show up.

[Klydon]

Other end of turn 9 notes:

I also transferred 4th Rumanian army (and all the troops attached to it) to AG Anotescu to help take pressure off AGS. AGS still remains badly overloaded, but that is what happens when you have 4 full German armies attached and the AG can only handle 3 full armies. At some point, I will look to transfer 3rd Rumanian army as well once I get the points saved up. I also straighten a few things out with the Finns as well.

I think Hfarrish has done well so far with the Russians. One of the things I think the Germans have to do is to try to take advantage of any mistake the Russians may make and Hfarrish just has not made very many at all. The Svir river line is an obvious one, but part of that is inexperience and misunderstanding on how it works. I have made my share of goofs as well and I know my next game will go a bit differently in what I would attempt anyway.

Above all, it has been very tough to get encirclements on him as he has been backing up, etc. I did managed to wack 13 units last turn and 15 this turn and in addition, I likely have more in the bag and Leningrad will likely be a pocket soon as well, so that part of it has not been too bad. Russian losses are almost 2 million while German losses are about 320k. My tank losses are bad however and transport aircraft took a beating before the patch. Air losses are 658 vs 6286.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I can't confirm that the Rumanians have accepted delivery of 100,000 Italian rifles (never fired, dropped once) nor can I confirm that the Italians have assured German tank designers that they have installed their tank transmissions correctly (2 speeds forward, 10 reverse). [:D]

LOL!

[Klydon]

As the masses eagerly await the start of turn 10, my opponent does not disappoint. [:D]

The start of turn 10 (August 21, 1941) in the AGN area shows a major pull back from both the Volkhov and Svir river lines. Part of the Leningrad garrison is also sea lifted out as well. Interesting as I would have thought he would want to draw out the fighting for as long as possible. I need to take the last port this turn and start considering what to do with the panzers in the area. With my reorganization of the Finns, a stronger force was sent towards the Svir river side, so I hope to take advantage of this when the Finns come on line and see about trying to get in behind and hit a good sized encirclement on the Russian troops in the area. My goal here is to kill Russians, but prudent logistics and the terrain suggest that I just want to get a good buffer in the area so that Leningrad remains very safe during the winter.

In addition to the withdraw shown, the Russians have also pulled back in the center, so my original idea of a big sweeping encirclement from the Leningrad to the SE to meet up with the AGC panzers is likely something that won't happen.