The problems of 1942 – possible causes and solutions – The Red Army

[Nikademus]

Are the cons of using lots of small units, such as brigades adequately modeled in the game vs. dedicated divisions and corps?

From what i've read, the impression i get is that they are not, creating a win win situation for the Soviet player. That looks like a big culprit.

[kvolk]

Another issue I think is an issue is that with the knowledge of how the weather falls and the build up of the soviest you can start building forts way before they would be done especially lvl 3 and 4. having multiple lines of fortifications behind lines does seem unrealistic as most of the reading I have done has forts on the main line and then maybe one other line being built behind that main line. Which I think means the forts need to be a more scarce resource. Maybe with a system like is used for rail repair.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: kvolk

Another issue I think is an issue is that with the knowledge of how the weather falls and the build up of the soviest you can start building forts way before they would be done especially lvl 3 and 4. having multiple lines of fortifications behind lines does seem unrealistic as most of the reading I have done has forts on the main line and then maybe one other line being built behind that main line. Which I think means the forts need to be a more scarce resource. Maybe with a system like is used for rail repair.

Cue TD's favorite quote about the Sovs building fortifications several hundred km behind the lines. I don't know why you think that it is unrealistic that the Sovs built multiple lines of fortifcations. That said, I don't think brigades should be able to build forts for three rifle corps, and so think that fortif should be done on a per unit rather than a per hex basis.

[kvolk]

I agree about the per unit basis and I think in places the soviets and the germans built multiple defensive lines but not from leningrad to rostov. They had to pick their spots plus I should say I mean lvl 3 and 4 forts not lvl 1 or 2.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Zonso

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

ORIGINAL: randallw

We just need that "I win" button for the Axis and most of the histrionics will end. [:'(]

I have been calling for this from day 1, and till now Joel STILL refuses to put this in. TRAVESTY!

Quite the opposite. This has not been what the thread is about at all. The fact you seem quite intent on reducing it to this says more about you and your bias than the posters attempting to have a discussion.

???
We were doing so well until now. Sad really [:)]

Actually I appreciate the humor and the laid back approach.

[PeeDeeAitch]

My humor is too nuanced for this thread.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: kvolk

Another issue I think is an issue is that with the knowledge of how the weather falls and the build up of the soviest you can start building forts way before they would be done especially lvl 3 and 4. having multiple lines of fortifications behind lines does seem unrealistic as most of the reading I have done has forts on the main line and then maybe one other line being built behind that main line. Which I think means the forts need to be a more scarce resource. Maybe with a system like is used for rail repair.

Cue TD's favorite quote about the Sovs building fortifications several hundred km behind the lines. I don't know why you think that it is unrealistic that the Sovs built multiple lines of fortifcations. That said, I don't think brigades should be able to build forts for three rifle corps, and so think that fortif should be done on a per unit rather than a per hex basis.

Since the civilian population doing the digging isn't represented by a counter I would think the brigade digging for three rifle corps would be quite acceptable and a fair representation of a population drafted to dig.

[Pawlock]

Keep up the humour Peter, it gets far too serious sometimes and after all it is just a game.

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: Panama

Since the civilian population doing the digging isn't represented by a counter I would think the brigade digging for three rifle corps would be quite acceptable and a fair representation of a population drafted to dig.

Also construction units attached by HQ will dig. The nominal digging capacity of a brigade is pathetic.

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: Pawlock

Keep up the humour Peter, it gets far too serious sometimes and after all it is just a game.

You're just saying that because I blew any chance for a 1942 offensive!

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Empire101

To be honest, I've never really subscribed to this view. Hitler and his Generals came from a generation that had seen victory in the East culminating in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk during WWI. They'd done it once and they knew they could do it again.

Well, the problem here, you see, is they were Nazis, and not imperials. If they had actually behaved reasonably and not gone in there with their ridiculous program of genocide and exploitation, they might have been able to force a crack up of the Soviet Union. But Hitler achieved the impossible: he made Stalin look good. That's pretty impressive.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

ORIGINAL: Pawlock

Keep up the humour Peter, it gets far too serious sometimes and after all it is just a game.

You're just saying that because I blew any chance for a 1942 offensive!

Peter? Peter! Does this mean that the First Letter has been solved?

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Empire101

To be honest, I've never really subscribed to this view. Hitler and his Generals came from a generation that had seen victory in the East culminating in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk during WWI. They'd done it once and they knew they could do it again.

Well, the problem here, you see, is they were Nazis, and not imperials. If they had actually behaved reasonably and not gone in there with their ridiculous program of genocide and exploitation, they might have been able to force a crack up of the Soviet Union. But Hitler achieved the impossible: he made Stalin look good. That's pretty impressive.

Amen to that.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

My humor is too nuanced for this thread.

Just add a smiley. [;)]

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Empire101

To be honest, I've never really subscribed to this view. Hitler and his Generals came from a generation that had seen victory in the East culminating in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk during WWI. They'd done it once and they knew they could do it again.

Well, the problem here, you see, is they were Nazis, and not imperials. If they had actually behaved reasonably and not gone in there with their ridiculous program of genocide and exploitation, they might have been able to force a crack up of the Soviet Union. But Hitler achieved the impossible: he made Stalin look good. That's pretty impressive.

I doubt most of his generals were at heart, but they were Germans and obeyed orders. Even heinous ones.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Hope it's not me that comes across screaming hystronics...[X(] I tried to be reasonable and start a discussion.

Well, seeing as how I couldn't even spell histrionics correctly... [:)]

Oh, I thought it was a wordplay on hysterics and histrionics, so I found it kind of funny. I thought it was one of your better jokes actually, and then it turns out it was unintentional [;)].

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Panama
Since the civilian population doing the digging isn't represented by a counter I would think the brigade digging for three rifle corps would be quite acceptable and a fair representation of a population drafted to dig.

Fair enough, if you're near a city...

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Empire101

To be honest, I've never really subscribed to this view. Hitler and his Generals came from a generation that had seen victory in the East culminating in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk during WWI. They'd done it once and they knew they could do it again.

Well, the problem here, you see, is they were Nazis, and not imperials. If they had actually behaved reasonably and not gone in there with their ridiculous program of genocide and exploitation, they might have been able to force a crack up of the Soviet Union. But Hitler achieved the impossible: he made Stalin look good. That's pretty impressive.

I agree, although to be frank, there is'nt much to choose between either side, they were both grotesque monsters.
But as you have stated had they behaved in some sort of decent fashion towards the Russian population then Stalin and his cronies would have really been in real trouble, Ukranian Seperatists, Balkan Rebels, Cossacks, etc the list is endless.

But Hitler achieved the impossible: he made Stalin look good. That's pretty impressive.

This made me laugh, its such a great summation in one sentence...... well said sir

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Empire101

Hitler and his Generals came from a generation that had seen victory in the East culminating in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk during WWI. They'd done it once and they knew they could do it again.

Unfortunately for them they never realised that the Soviets were at least the equal to them in ruthlessness, brutality and resourcefulness, a completely different animal from the Czar's Army and Government of 1914.

This is an interesting point. We tend to see WW2 with the expectations and mindset of - WW2! But all the participants and decision makers of WW2 had fought in and had experience of WW1, and their expectations and mindset was of WW1. People always tend to adapt to the lessons of the last war and try to fight that better.

If we step back to 1914, the Germans had experience of 1870, they knew they could lick the French pretty easily. The Russians OTOH were a hard nut, Napoleon had invaded them with the might of all Europe, and look where that got him. So in 1914 the Germans naturally went for knocking out the French first and then deal with the Russians. In reality, it turned out differently. The French proved hard to beat, and eventually it was Russia that couldn't bear the strain.

So, in WW2, the Germans naturally thought that the French would be hard to beat, but the Russians/Soviets could in all likelihood be bowled over quite easily. Victory in the West in 1940 probably came much easier that the German military had expected. So why doubt that they could repeat the WW1 thing against the Russians/Soviets, especially now that they had eliminated the French first?

Having this in mind also sheds light on a lot of otherwise seemingly inexplicable decisions. The halt at Dunkirk for example. With hindsight it seems a gross mistake. But many German Generals were remembering von Kluck getting into trouble outside Paris in 1914, and some caution probably seemed like a good idea to them.

Now this is getting seriously OT, but it was an interesting train of thought.

Good post the rest of it too, Empire!

[ComradeP]

Well, the problem here, you see, is they were Nazis, and not imperials. If they had actually behaved reasonably and not gone in there with their ridiculous program of genocide and exploitation, they might have been able to force a crack up of the Soviet Union. But Hitler achieved the impossible: he made Stalin look good. That's pretty impressive.

To the Soviet prisoners, Hitler was still less scary than Stalin, as they knew if they ever returned to the Soviet Union, there was a fair chance they'd be arrested or executed by the NKVD. After the war, former prisoners got special ID mentioning they were former prisoners, which doomed them to do jobs nobody else wanted.

Slave labour can still be a better prospect than death.