The Immense Pleasure of Huge Wargames

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Oh man...I subscribed for a number of years...loved that magazine. Yes-that PRINT magazine.

I had some copies left from the late 80s when I cleaned house during the divorce. Over 200 pages long, and most of it wasn't ads. A different era to be sure. I used to keep notes on coming ship dates on games six months out; there was no other good place to know that info.

Did you read the mag in the Scorpia era? She was the single biggest reason I ever tried a role playing game, and I still play a few to this day.

[Blacksheep]

I second the motion for CNA. I managed to get through five turns of that monster in my pre-pc days, and I look at it as one of my finest gaming achievements. The logistics lend themselve to a computer model not to mention the A2A combat (which took days in itself to resolve). Probably will never see it but I can dream.

[sprior]

I have some Perfidious Albions in the garage

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Blacksheep

I second the motion for CNA. I managed to get through five turns of that monster in my pre-pc days, and I look at it as one of my finest gaming achievements. The logistics lend themselve to a computer model not to mention the A2A combat (which took days in itself to resolve). Probably will never see it but I can dream.

+3

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Empire101

I've got the horrible feeling that your deduction may be correct.

That might be true, but there’s still some interesting possibilities that the monster games offer, outside the conventional. Granted that GC style play very often devolves, due to the inherent flexibilities built into these games, leading to endless variations on the first year, but not a lot beyond that.

However, the monster games, like WiTP-AE, have a wealth of internal (coding) and external (editor) possibilities that obtain in the mid and late war periods. Little of this is noticed because of the tendency to build, flex, and kill during the first campaign year. Many AARs die a natural death in 1943, just when things could get interesting. So, although set up that way, maybe GCs aren’t the touchstone.

To really utilize the power and flexibility of the engine and the database of these monsters, it might make more sense to think of them as tools and build smaller, more specific, scenarios or Fleet problems, that span the time frame of the game engine. Most of my current involvement with this title is in writing, umpiring and playing small op-problem scenarios using the editor/engine smorgasbord. This kind of play is taking off with many groups in the US and Internationally. Would really like to see some small scenario AARs. They are short, playable, and a serious learning experience, both with the game and with an opponent. And if people play them, more will be done.

Matrix people understood this: never talked to the Slitherine people, don’t know as I would want to. But some of the gaming development community has had an opportunity to chat with some of the professional/grognard users, and gets it.

We will just have to wait and see. But I am somewhat hopeful.

And..to Termie Doom & Gloom, Light (tm) shines on DaBigBabes. [:D]

Sardaukar -

I emphatically agree. My view, is that DBB is really just starting to spool up to speed....

Mac

[Mac Linehan]

Re: Campaign for North Africa:

PizzaMan -

For some reason, I bought two copies of this game, but never had the time to play it. Also have SPI's War in the Pacific, War in Europe and the original War in the East. From 1971 until the advent of my first computer in 1989, I would come home on leave once a year or so and buy 100 dollars (or more) worth of SPI brand games. Also Squad Leader, ASL and so on. One of the advantages of being older is that I have all of the published modules for ASL. Back in 1977, I still recall reading the rules for SL during my lunch break - in preparation for game play on the weekend. Gosh - that seems so long ago...

Computer Campaign for North Africa would be awesome...

Mac

[Dili]

I forgot to add that the Mediterranean was also where special forces had more impact in whole II World War.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Re: Campaign for North Africa:

PizzaMan -

For some reason, I bought two copies of this game, but never had the time to play it. Also have SPI's War in the Pacific, War in Europe and the original War in the East. From 1971 until the advent of my first computer in 1989, I would come home on leave once a year or so and buy 100 dollars (or more) worth of SPI brand games. Also Squad Leader, ASL and so on. One of the advantages of being older is that I have all of the published modules for ASL. Back in 1977, I still recall reading the rules for SL during my lunch break - in preparation for game play on the weekend. Gosh - that seems so long ago...

Computer Campaign for North Africa would be awesome...

Mac

I unfortunately decided to part with a fair number of my collection...sold them on e-bay to finance a musical instrument for my son...and club soccer for my other son. My priorities at 25 were a bit different than they are at 43...I imagine in a few years I wish I had those old games back.

[Dili]

So don't you expect computer wargames to improve?

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Personaly I think they have. I remember playing "gems" like this



Dont get me wrong, it was awesome back then but If you had given me War in the Pacific back then(via time travel of course) while I was playing this I would have married you and you would have gone to jail for marrying an underage.

[PizzaMan]

Did anyone play this monster game? My high school friend had a few modules, but we never played it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(wargame)

[sprior]

Likewise, I have some of the Europa games but never played them.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Blacksheep
I second the motion for CNA. I managed to get through five turns of that monster in my pre-pc days, and I look at it as one of my finest gaming achievements. The logistics lend themselve to a computer model not to mention the A2A combat (which took days in itself to resolve). Probably will never see it but I can dream.

Looks like lots of people had the same idea about CNA. I am not sure it would make a very good computer wargame, though.

Like many similar monsters, CNA implies a lot of small decisions by the players throughout the turn sequence. Unless you totally rework the combat and movement system, you won't be able to translate this into a WITP-like computer game: you'd end up with an incredible click-fest. The turn sequence also has a lot of player interaction, which complicates PBEM.

What might work would be a Vassal-like system, that would keep all the game files on one's machine (and therefore reduce the playing space), help with die rolls and resolution, and (perhaps?) could be played PBC (play by chat), in interactive sessions.

I have been toying with this idea for a long time, never really took the time to explore it in details, but I believe that would be the way to play "old wargames" again.

On the other hand, the design has lots of very interesting ideas, which could be used by computer games. For what I've seen, most computer wargames sort of "evolved" from ASL-like systems, where you get large scale result by agregating small scale figures. Many paper wargames followed a different, top down, route to modelling, that probably lends itself better to AI programming, and would most certaintly result in games with a very different feel than the ones we play now.

Francois

[treespider]

All of you CNA guys should really look at DAK/DAK2, originally designed by a company called the Gamers. The Gamers merged/sold to Multi-man publishing (MMP) the same folks currently bringing you ASL.

DAK and DAK2 are a part of the operational combat series (OCS). Essentially various campaigns at 5 miles hex.

OCS 1 - Guderians Blitzkrieg (the drive on Moscow)
OCS 2 - Enemy at the Gates (Soviet Stalingrad Counter Offensive through the spring)
OCS 3 - Tunisia
OCS 4 - Hube's Pocket
OCS 5 - DAK
OCS 6 - Burma then re-sissued and revised Burma II (operation in northern Burma 1944)
OCS 7 - Sicily
OCS 8 - Guderians Blitzkrieg II (revised and expanded as series was now on version 4 by this point)
OCS 9 - Korea
OCS 10 - Case Blue (massive expansion and standalone that combined with GBII) allowing the southern Russian front to be redone at 5 miles a hex from Moscow all the way into the Caucuses...

The Gamers produced some innovative games and provided excellent support...cannot say enough about them.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: Blacksheep
I second the motion for CNA. I managed to get through five turns of that monster in my pre-pc days, and I look at it as one of my finest gaming achievements. The logistics lend themselve to a computer model not to mention the A2A combat (which took days in itself to resolve). Probably will never see it but I can dream.

Looks like lots of people had the same idea about CNA. I am not sure it would make a very good computer wargame, though.

Like many similar monsters, CNA implies a lot of small decisions by the players throughout the turn sequence. Unless you totally rework the combat and movement system, you won't be able to translate this into a WITP-like computer game: you'd end up with an incredible click-fest. The turn sequence also has a lot of player interaction, which complicates PBEM.

What might work would be a Vassal-like system, that would keep all the game files on one's machine (and therefore reduce the playing space), help with die rolls and resolution, and (perhaps?) could be played PBC (play by chat), in interactive sessions.

I have been toying with this idea for a long time, never really took the time to explore it in details, but I believe that would be the way to play "old wargames" again.

On the other hand, the design has lots of very interesting ideas, which could be used by computer games. For what I've seen, most computer wargames sort of "evolved" from ASL-like systems, where you get large scale result by agregating small scale figures. Many paper wargames followed a different, top down, route to modelling, that probably lends itself better to AI programming, and would most certaintly result in games with a very different feel than the ones we play now.

Francois

I have Vassal but have never used it...do you have any experience with it?

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: treespider
I have Vassal but have never used it...do you have any experience with it?

Never used it to actually play a game, but tinkered with it quite a bit.

As for the Gamers, when it was published, DAK was sold as "CNA done right". To some extent, it is true, as there are quite a few teams who have played the full campaign for DAK, whereas I don't think anyone except the playtesters ever played the whole CNA.

I never was a huge fan of OCS, but I loved all the Gamers TCS games.

Francois

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: Blacksheep
I second the motion for CNA. I managed to get through five turns of that monster in my pre-pc days, and I look at it as one of my finest gaming achievements. The logistics lend themselves to a computer model not to mention the A2A combat (which took days in itself to resolve). Probably will never see it but I can dream.

Looks like lots of people had the same idea about CNA. I am not sure it would make a very good computer wargame, though.

Like many similar monsters, CNA implies a lot of small decisions by the players throughout the turn sequence. Unless you totally rework the combat and movement system, you won't be able to translate this into a WITP-like computer game: you'd end up with an incredible click-fest. The turn sequence also has a lot of player interaction, which complicates PBEM.

What might work would be a Vassal-like system, that would keep all the game files on one's machine (and therefore reduce the playing space), help with die rolls and resolution, and (perhaps?) could be played PBC (play by chat), in interactive sessions.

I have been toying with this idea for a long time, never really took the time to explore it in details, but I believe that would be the way to play "old wargames" again.

On the other hand, the design has lots of very interesting ideas, which could be used by computer games. For what I've seen, most computer wargames sort of "evolved" from ASL-like systems, where you get large scale result by agregating small scale figures. Many paper wargames followed a different, top down, route to modelling, that probably lends itself better to AI programming, and would most certainly result in games with a very different feel than the ones we play now.

Francois

I have Vassal but have never used it...do you have any experience with it?

treespider -

I played Squad Leader / Advanced Squad Leader from 1977 until 1990. Discovered Multi Man Publishing in 2006 thereabouts. Discovered the ASL module for the Vassal game engine. Studied the rules during the summer of 2007 (in the mountains, no computer) then, upon return to Denver, played ASL using the vassal module. It was absolutely outstanding. A Vassal module includes the game map boards, counters and markers. The player must still have a copy of the product with the game rules and charts. What is so awesome to me, is that the ASL board and pieces can be magnified, and I no longer have to manually setup and manipulate all the game counters. Plus, I just save and exit when done playing - something we take for granted with computer games.

I have the Vassal version of Gamers / MMP OCS2 "Enemy at the Gates" on my old AMD computer. I recall downloading it as freeware from MMP in 2009; don't recall any other details. Set it up and looked at it - very appealing, but have not yet had time to play it. If you would like a copy of the zipped game, please PM me. I would like to emphasize again that the download was free of charge at the time; thus I feel comfortable in making this offer.

Do hope that this helps. I have heard nothing but good about the Gamers / MMP OCS system. I am a hard core ASL player - but stopped in summer of 2009 to focus on WitP AE.

Mac

[USS Henrico]

Did anyone play this monster game? My high school friend had a few modules, but we never played it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(wargame)

I played DNO and Unentschieden in high school as a team game with me as the Russian leader. We lost big-time: I still remember that bitterly. The Narvik game was much more playable, but I think I only played that solitaire.

What was cool about the Europa games were the individual aircraft types, while SPI games like War In Europe were still wedded to the abstact concept of air support points in their games. Also the Europa series had better differentation between ground unit types, which led to more math calcs before you rolled the dice, but just seemed cooler.

[ilovestrategy]

I'm curious, how many folks here still play board strategy games. Most of us have kids, pets, or grand kids to cause all sorts of mayhem. I just can't see anyone over thirty having an unmolested table.

My PC is my table top nowadays.

[John 3rd]

I have a basement with a lockable door...