OT: Japanese vs the Russians video

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

No video can describe the hell thrown to the Japanese (courtesy of the Red Army) [:D] Imagine an utter veteran army (after fighting the Wehrmacht for 5 years) with their hardened and scary Guards Rifle Corps, Tank Armies (with tank and mechanized corps, filled with REAL tanks), Katiushas, artillery and breakthough divisions... vs... er the mighty Japanese Tankette [:D][:D]

The poor things were simply sliced...

At least the Soviets kept their word. They had said at both Yalta and Postdam that they would attack the Japanese 2 or 3 months after the defeat of Germany (as Roosevelt had requested). June, july, august = 3 months.

From everything I have read, they broke through traditionally entrenched Japanese positions with spirit and gusto (in fact, iirc, in some places they achieved a higher artillery density than the Berlin operation). But they did take very heavy losses. Again, iirc, the authors I have read pointed to the Japanese tenacity, refusal to surrender and use of "irregular" tactics. As such, then, I think this movie should be seen as offering a somewhat accurate representation, in my opinion.

I generally find Japanese movies to be very fair to both sides of the story, if a bit melodramatic and probably amateurish from a moviemaking perspective (on which I have no opinion other than as a viewer). In contrast, I dont think I could say the same about either US or Russian films in their bulk. Many do a fairly good job presenting their own side's story but dont do so well with the enemy.

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

And of course, we both know how Stalingrad ended; an overextended professional army defeated by conscripts [;)]

At the risk of getting into a discussion I will probably wish I had avoided, could you please qualify that statement? [&:]

Edit: Nevermind, Jorge. After reading some of the rest of this thread, I think I'll stand by my instinct and stay out of this discussion. Too many unqualified statements and what-ifs for me. [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

No video can describe the hell thrown to the Japanese (courtesy of the Red Army) [:D] Imagine an utter veteran army (after fighting the Wehrmacht for 5 years) with their hardened and scary Guards Rifle Corps, Tank Armies (with tank and mechanized corps, filled with REAL tanks), Katiushas, artillery and breakthough divisions... vs... er the mighty Japanese Tankette [:D][:D]

The poor things were simply sliced...

At least the Soviets kept their word. They had said at both Yalta and Postdam that they would attack the Japanese 2 or 3 months after the defeat of Germany (as Roosevelt had requested). June, july, august = 3 months.

From everything I have read, they broke through traditionally entrenched Japanese positions with spirit and gusto (in fact, iirc, in some places they achieved a higher artillery density than the Berlin operation). But they did take very heavy losses. Again, iirc, the authors I have read pointed to the Japanese tenacity, refusal to surrender and use of "irregular" tactics. As such, then, I think this movie should be seen as offering a somewhat accurate representation, in my opinion.

I generally find Japanese movies to be very fair to both sides of the story, if a bit melodramatic and probably amateurish from a moviemaking perspective (on which I have no opinion other than as a viewer). In contrast, I dont think I could say the same about either US or Russian films in their bulk. Many do a fairly good job presenting their own side's story but dont do so well with the enemy.

Yes, we can safely assume that they showed the same tenacity shown by the trapped Soviet armies in the frontier districts in 1941. Alas that was not enough to stop the massive blow delivered to them [8D] Not even close.

I guess the winners tend to brag. The losing side is much more modest (Japan & Germany).

[pharmy]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

No video can describe the hell thrown to the Japanese (courtesy of the Red Army) [:D] Imagine an utter veteran army (after fighting the Wehrmacht for 5 years) with their hardened and scary Guards Rifle Corps, Tank Armies (with tank and mechanized corps, filled with REAL tanks), Katiushas, artillery and breakthough divisions... vs... er the mighty Japanese Tankette [:D][:D]

The poor things were simply sliced...

At least the Soviets kept their word. They had said at both Yalta and Postdam that they would attack the Japanese 2 or 3 months after the defeat of Germany (as Roosevelt had requested). June, july, august = 3 months.

From everything I have read, they broke through traditionally entrenched Japanese positions with spirit and gusto (in fact, iirc, in some places they achieved a higher artillery density than the Berlin operation). But they did take very heavy losses. Again, iirc, the authors I have read pointed to the Japanese tenacity, refusal to surrender and use of "irregular" tactics. As such, then, I think this movie should be seen as offering a somewhat accurate representation, in my opinion.

I generally find Japanese movies to be very fair to both sides of the story, if a bit melodramatic and probably amateurish from a moviemaking perspective (on which I have no opinion other than as a viewer). In contrast, I dont think I could say the same about either US or Russian films in their bulk. Many do a fairly good job presenting their own side's story but dont do so well with the enemy.

Yes, we can safely assume that they showed the same tenacity shown by the trapped Soviet armies in the frontier districts in 1941. Alas that was not enough to stop the massive blow delivered to them [8D] Not even close.

I guess the winners tend to brag. The losing side is much more modest (Japan & Germany).

The Soviets themselves admitted that the tenacity shown by the Japanese was surprisingly strong. Lets not forget that due to the official surrender, the Soviets did not even even engage the majority of forces yet, and the surrender announced by Hirohito denied them even the chance to show their bravery in the Kesselshlachts that did not occur due to this.

An excerpt about the only real head on battle, at Mutanchiang. that occurred from Glantz's second study August Storm : Soviet Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945

"On 13 and 14 August, for instance, the Soviets had only a reinforced tank brigade available to battle the Japanese, the major reason the Japanese halted the brigade at Hualin. On the fifteenth, only three or four rifle regiments and a tank brigade were available for combat, again a force insufficient to overcome determined Japanese defenses. Only on the sixteenth could Beloborodov muster sufficient strength to overcome the Japanese defenses. By that time the Japanese already had withdrawn major portions of their troops. A similar situation occurred in Soviet 5th Army sector. Although lead units of 5th Army reached the approaches to Mutanchiang on the evening of the thirteenth, the bulk of the army's strength remained on the flanks of the penetration or strung out to the rear, desperately trying to catch up with the vanguard of the army. Only by the evening of the fifteenth were sufficient Soviet 5th Army forces at hand to break the Japanese defenses and continue the drive southwest toward Ningan.

Despite these limitations, Japanese forces suffered heavy casualties. The 126th Infantry Division admitted 2,050 killed; the 135th, 3,000 killed; and 5th Army reported total casualties of 20,000 men out of 60,000 engaged, plus the loss of eighty-six guns and eighteen mortars. First Area Army acknowledged another 5,000 battlefield casualties from its engaged units. 51 These figures appear more realistic than Soviet claims of 40,000 Japanese dead at Mutanchiang alone. 52 Both Japanese 5th Army and First Area Army claimed to have inflicted 7,000-10,000 Soviet casualties. 53 The Japanese might have underestimated the damage they inflicted in light of Soviet reports of 32,000 dead in the entire campaign. 54 A large portion of the Soviet casualties occurred in the bitter fighting for Mutanchiang.

Despite the tenacious Japanese defense and the hindering terrain of Manchuria, Soviet forces accomplished their objectives ahead of schedule. They preempted Japanese attempts to create a strong contiguous defensive line around Mutanchiang and secured Mutanchiang eight days into the offensive, ten days ahead of schedule. Soviet success was the result of audacious and rapid advance over terrain the Japanese thought impassable. That rapid advance never lost momentum and almost paralyzed the Japanese command structure. The Japanese military's only consolation was the determined, even suicidal, discipline of units that followed orders unhesitatingly and sacrificed themselves for what was already a lost cause."

And an order given by units destroyed previous to this battle at Mount Shozu

"The commanders of the 20th Heavy Field Artillery Regiment and the Mutanchiang Heavy Artillery Regiment and most of their men were killed by the onslaught, and their guns destroyed. General Shiina lost communications with his remaining units. His last formal order to his units read:


All personnel of the division, with firm determination to die in honor, shall repeatedly carry out raiding tactics under cover of darkness, and will smash the enemy's combat strength bit by bit. To this end all units will carry out tenacious attacks, according to the following procedures:

The main target of attack will be the enemy located along the Mutanchiang road.

Units north of the road will charge and break through the enemy line to the south; those south of the road will charge and break through to the north. Each will advance to the hilly zone of the opposite side. In the daytime they will endeavor to seek cover and conceal their movements and intentions as much as possible. During the ensuing night they will return and repeat the same action.

In attacking, adjoining units will maintain close contact and exercise utmost care to avoid engagements among themselves.

Movement towards the sector west of Taimakou will be prohibited.

The raiding tactics stipulated in these instructions will be carried out beginning on the night of 15 August"


http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/r ... lantz4.asp