Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Saper)

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Save the large ARM (8+7 L, 17 T, 15 R & 9 Moscow), 1 pt of every AC factory (- MIG but do remember the two factories just to the west of N Moscow ) and possibly the Moscow, Rostov & Voroshilovgrad HI. 1 pt of the T-40(?) in Moscow as well. Start with the 8+7 ARM in L.

Write off the small ARM & HI and also the remaining vehicle - the multiplier goes down to 55 for vehicles in '42.

The Soviet offensive power in '43 and later comes to the better part from Infantry and Artillery and for these you will need ARM (& men).

The Soviets start with 370 ARM, so you have lost 22. Another 20 (as in the small ones in your list) is no problem , but really try to keep below 50 total lost. Running out of supply due to few HI is a myth, I've seen it once and the case that time was a fortification program gone overboard.

Actually I've lost 26 so far, not 22. Tula is already locked so it can't be saved. With respect to Leningrad I have the choice this turn of either saving the armies around Leningrad from being cutoff and destroyed (by railing them out) or else moving the factories. I have chosen the former. With the loss of the 17 Arms in Tula + Leningrad + the others nearby I will not be able to keep my Arms losses below 50 fatcories I'm afraid. I thought I read elsewhere that Vehicle factories were more important than Arms. If they are not I could have moved an extra 20 Arms factories instead of the 20 vehicle factories in Kharkov. With this and Walloc's tips I'll be better prepared next game.

[randallw]

I believe if you relocate one vehicle factory from a city the group will slowly regenerate at the new location. Arms factories do not regenerate to the previous size; whatever amount relocated will produce that much when repaired, and no more. ( maybe? )

[morvael]

Vehicles are the same as ARM and HI. Not destroyed on partial evac, but they don't rebuild.

[gingerbread]

Vehicles are important - it's just that the factories does not produce that many of them. [;)]
Better to use vehicle saving routines instead.

If you make a back-of-the-envelope kind of evac plan, you will soon notice that there is room for 1 large or 2 medium size factories per turn. There are 5 large (15+) and 6 medium ARM (the second chunk of the Stalino being a medium size 9). These have to be fitted somehow into the available rail cap and it's very tempting to be optimistic about forecasting where the front line will be in a future turn. Writing off (most of) the factories west of Dnepr is a good way to get those east if it out.

[Peltonx]

Sappers game from turns 1-7 is basicly "normal" or average.

But after that hes doing far better then anyone post 1.06.11

The advances after that are basicly in line with smoking poeple before the supply nerfs all my 10-0 1941 wins.

The key is he has SHC completely off balance.

AGN: has easly done the right hook.
AGC: Moscow is toast, GHC is close far to soon and in great supply because of whatever loop hole hes found.
AGS: Rostov, AGA will easly be released and Stalingrad will more then likly fall.

Sure SHC OOB is ok, because they have been with drawing.

There is no plase to run now and I expect Sapper to get large pockets.

Leningrad/Moscow/Rostov/AGA and Stalingrad. If you guys are playing the 260 VP game I expect Sapper will win out or come close.

As before 1.06.11 suppies seem not to be an issue for GHC in this game.

Armaments are not the bottle neck and have not been for 8 months atleast.

Sapper will easly put a huge hurting on manpower, which there is a tipping point.

Once he gets over that SHC has no chance to get close to Berlin before 1946.

[carlkay58]

As far as I have seen, the major thing that Saper is doing is to use air supply as much as possible on the Motorized XXs. Then use them to plow a deep penetration that flips a lot of hexes for the rest of the army (panzers and infantry) to follow along. I have tried this method against the AI and it is amazing how fast and far the Axis can go. You fly the supply in before movement at the start of the turn (up to the max of 124%) and then fly more after the movement. Make sure it is the first mission type flown when all of the level bombers will use their first mission to fly the fuel.

What does this do? It allows the Axis to max out the Motorized XXs' movement WITHOUT having to rest up for HQBUs. There is just no slowing them down and it can be very effective.

[Michael T]

I think Harry has run too far too fast in this one.

[Peltonx]

He had no other options.

As GHC had unlimited fuel.

You more then anyone should know this. If you don't run you simply get pocketed.

You should be happy its the good old days all over again.

No skill required just exploit the crap out of the current rule set.

Grats to Sapper for out smarting 2by3 febble attempts to balance game.

2by3 has nerfed GHC to the point the poor guys playing as the game should be, are getting crushed early.

As we know MT once this last exploit is nerfed the SHC should be easly winning in late 1944.

Is it a skill exploiting rule sets or is the exploiter simply skillfull at finding exploits?

Its hard to tell whos the best when you can't know for sure if the other guys just exploiting the ruleset?

I personally stopped using fuel exploits in October of 2011 when I started my last big round of games, my game vs M60 was one of them.

I was hoping the talk of the up coming patch that was to nerf fuel exploits would work, but did not.

Hopefully the next one will nerf the last exploit.

I hope this will not be part of witw or with the allied air forse Patton will be in Berlin 3 months after allies land in France heheheheehhe.

Patton would have loved unlimited fuel, heheheh

[Michael T]

Go do your move Pelton

[Peltonx]

You can be sure our game will last until the last fuel exploit is gone hehehehehe
and Berlin falls.

be interesting to see what Sapper or yourself is like with out a fuel exploit?

Working on Bobos turn he finally stopped playing the other 2 games he just bought and was nice enough to do a turn for the first time in 2 weeks.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think Harry has run too far too fast in this one.

You may be right Michael, perhaps I retreated too quickly or too far at times because I was too worried about encircelements based on my reading of Speedy and M60A's AARs. But I tried to hold him where I could. He didn't make too much headway in the North until T10 and even then that was due more to my poor troop positioning than it was to my retreating too far. I didn't retreat from the landbridge until T5 and if you go back and look at his fuel situatuon I think you'll agree I had no choice. In the south he didn't cross the Dnepr until T6, while I note Pelton crossed on T4 in your game. I was actually trying to take a page out of your playbook in this game; which if I understand it correctly, is to preserve the Russian army and set up defensive lines further east where the Germans will have supply problems and can't use HQBUs. Unfortunately this plan is not working against Saper as every turn he has 5 or 6 motorized units with 30 to 40 MPs, often on consecutive turns.

I'm pretty sure that you or FlaviusX could defeat Saper and I would love to watch you do it. Not because I have any animosity towards Saper, he is most coutreous opponent. But because I'd love to see how you did it. Howver, until he figures out how to play a server game I expect that isn't going to happen.

[Harrybanana]

T11 North After Moves

I rail North Front and NW Front to relative safety. And to think just a few short turns ago I thought I might be able to actually hold Leningrad this game. Instead most of the industry in Leningrad is now toast.

[Harrybanana]

T11 Moscow Area after my moves.

Things are going to get ugly for me here very soon

[Harrybanana]

T11 Tula to Voronezh after my moves.

[Harrybanana]

T11 South after my moves
I’m trying to keep him away from Rostov this turn so I can evacuate the industry next turn. The activation of Army Groups A and B and the fall of Stalingrad in 1941 are both distinct possibilitie

[Michael T]

FWIW I don’t have a fuel exploit. If you are worried that our return game will be somehow exploited by myself then I will be happy to release you from it. Up to you. We can wait till you are happy with the rule set or not even bother with it at all. I plenty of other offers for games. Right now though I am very focused on our current game.

[Michael T]

It's a fine line Harry. When to run, how far and when. Not an easy skill to master.

Sorry to hijack your thread. I will refrain from baiting herr Pelton on it again

Yes if Sapper ever can manage a server game I would be happy to play him.

[Harrybanana]

For comparison purposes I am posting below some screen shots from T11 of my first game against Saper. A good part of his vastly improved position in our current game is due simply to his being a much better player. For example in our first game not only did he not create the extended Lvov pocket, I was able to break the smaller (usual) Lvov pocket he did create. But I believe at least as vital to his success in our current game has been his excellent use of air supply to his motorized and, to a lesser extent, panzer divisions.

T11 North 1st Game.

[Harrybanana]

T11 Moscow 1st Game

[Harrybanana]

T11 Centre 1st game