Build 4.4.258 Feedback

[BigDuke66]

Can confirm what was already said, artillery boxes are sometimes open at the bottom but that doesn't seem to affect artillery fire.


Next what is up with the "Höckerlinie" at Elsborn Ridge? Some segments there are shown as major river when right clicking on it terrain there, is this on purpose or corrupted scenario/map data?


Now a point I don't look thru, I adjusted some values(As far as I can see just ONLY Aggro, ROF, Ammo) for a bat. attack and as these new orders arrive with the attack already rolling the 3 companies attacking get the order to fall back to the FUP for a reorg task, I can't imagine that it should work that way, shouldn't these kind of adjustments be put into the rolling attack "on the fly"?

I see also other bat. attacks fall back, maybe because of the same changes I made, I wanted to make sure that the first US line is crossed and that the attacks don't stop because of low ammo or high fatigue, that's why I adjusted some values of those attacks but nothing big, no moving of the target or change of formation or so.

For now I only attach the save(rename to .zip) where you can see what happens:
Check out the attack of the II Bn HQ 48 Gren Rgt, at 11:19 they get the new order and a reorg task appears almost at the FUP of the attack, also the old order seems to be cancel as the message log shows that it has "failed to complete its attack mission", let it run longer and you should see also other bat. attacks behave similar.

[Arjuna]

BigDuke66,

In RL no good commander would change the orders after the troops have crossed the assault line. By that time the die is cast and you should just wait. If you do change the order then the attack will be replanned and yes you will end up back at the FUP if you had assigned one. My advice is to pause and issue the attack orders with all the setting you desire, then let it be.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Next what is up with the "Höckerlinie" at Elsborn Ridge? Some segments there are shown as major river when right clicking on it terrain there, is this on purpose or corrupted scenario/map data?

Hi BigDuke

Hope this helps with that queston.

It's just not marked very well in the scenario map but it is there on the ground for real.

Not a major river obviously, but I think it was put there just to make it impassable terrain.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

BigDuke66,

In RL no good commander would change the orders after the troops have crossed the assault line. By that time the die is cast and you should just wait. If you do change the order then the attack will be replanned and yes you will end up back at the FUP if you had assigned one. My advice is to pause and issue the attack orders with all the setting you desire, then let it be.

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Now a point I don't look thru, I adjusted some values(As far as I can see just ONLY Aggro, ROF, Ammo) for a bat. attack and as these new orders arrive with the attack already rolling the 3 companies attacking get the order to fall back to the FUP for a reorg task, I can't imagine that it should work that way, shouldn't these kind of adjustments be put into the rolling attack "on the fly"?

From Manual

Some other situations which generally don¡¦t cause replans or incur orders delay are listed below. The list isn¡¦t complete, so there is still room for you to experiment and discover some of this for yourself, but in general anything not specifically mentioned below will probably incur orders delay.

Move or Defend Orders
„b Changing Speed, Route, Aggro, ROF, and Losses
„b Changing Frontage, Depth, and Facing
„b Changing Formation, except for In-Situ, which does incur orders delay

Attack or Probe Orders
„b Changing Speed, Route, ROF, and Losses
„b Changing Frontage, Depth, or Facing
„b Changing Formation (except for In-Situ) during the move to FUP, or sometimes (but not always) during the assault

You might need to do some more tests to see if there was not somethng else going on BigDuke, because as far as I cas see from the manual, you should not have needed a replan, unless it was the agro change?

[dazkaz15]

I have a stuck unit.

Think if I was to let it run, it will stay there for the whole 4 days, but I don't have enough time to find out [;)]

Two save games sent via email.

[dazkaz15]

Another problem here with a Bn HQ abandoning its assault due to lack of time even though its time was set to the end of the scenario.

A lot of the problems with the abandonment of orders, and even the stuck issue may be related to the timings.
They seem to be a little quirky at the moment?

[navwarcol]

Daz...just from glancing at the image there..is it possible that it abandoned it because route planning is taking it along some strange path? I had this happen once. The way to check this I think is by the tool menu, check the route that matches the one you ordered "quickest" and see how long it is saying it expects that to take. Just an idea, as I said, something like that happened with mine in last patch, but it worked itself out of it, and for the life of me, I never figured out how.

[Rock64]

I strongly disagree that every company can call for fire 100% of it's "non-routed" time. WWII artillery radio sets were big honking things with limited range and not 100% reliable. The majority of fire missions were called in over wire. Just read thru the artillery section in the greenbook.

Artillery fire in BTFB is more responsive to calls for fire than even modern day military communicatins allow. It's like every officer has a cell phone to contact any and all batteries and is directing fire with hand held laser GPS devices. And I'm not really exagerating!

[navwarcol]

ORIGINAL: Rock64

I strongly disagree that every company can call for fire 100% of it's "non-routed" time. WWII artillery radio sets were big honking things with limited range and not 100% reliable. The majority of fire missions were called in over wire. Just read thru the artillery section in the greenbook.

Artillery fire in BTFB is more responsive to calls for fire than even modern day military communicatins allow. It's like every officer has a cell phone to contact any and all batteries and is directing fire with hand held laser GPS devices. And I'm not really exagerating!

What I read Dave saying, was NOT that all non-routing units CAN call for fire support. What he said, is that units which are routing(running away) or retreating, cannot call for it.

[Phoenix100]

deleted

[wodin]

Daz what movement is the HQ foot or wheeled..if wheeled the HQ might not be able to get there due to impassable terrain..?

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

BigDuke66,

In RL no good commander would change the orders after the troops have crossed the assault line. By that time the die is cast and you should just wait. If you do change the order then the attack will be replanned and yes you will end up back at the FUP if you had assigned one. My advice is to pause and issue the attack orders with all the setting you desire, then let it be.

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Now a point I don't look thru, I adjusted some values(As far as I can see just ONLY Aggro, ROF, Ammo) for a bat. attack and as these new orders arrive with the attack already rolling the 3 companies attacking get the order to fall back to the FUP for a reorg task, I can't imagine that it should work that way, shouldn't these kind of adjustments be put into the rolling attack "on the fly"?

From Manual

Some other situations which generally don¡¦t cause replans or incur orders delay are listed below. The list isn¡¦t complete, so there is still room for you to experiment and discover some of this for yourself, but in general anything not specifically mentioned below will probably incur orders delay.

Move or Defend Orders
„b Changing Speed, Route, Aggro, ROF, and Losses
„b Changing Frontage, Depth, and Facing
„b Changing Formation, except for In-Situ, which does incur orders delay

Attack or Probe Orders
„b Changing Speed, Route, ROF, and Losses
„b Changing Frontage, Depth, or Facing
„b Changing Formation (except for In-Situ) during the move to FUP, or sometimes (but not always) during the assault

You might need to do some more tests to see if there was not something else going on BigDuke, because as far as I case see from the manual, you should not have needed a replan, unless it was the agro change?

Thanks for pointing to this. Indeed it could be the aggro setting but as the manual isn't up to date anymore I would like Arunja to confirm this.
But still I would expect to have a delay happen but not simply breaking off while attacking, falling back to the FUP and than start the show again without a real rearrangement of the attack and just redoing what they already did before.

From the manual:
Aggression ( aggro ) refers to how aggressive or assertive the unit is and how much initiative the unit
is likely to exercise. Units with high aggro lose less morale and are more likely to fire or attack.

Would a change here really cause a complete replan???

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Daz what movement is the HQ foot or wheeled..if wheeled the HQ might not be able to get there due to impassable terrain..?

Both units are using foot tables mate.
The one that abandoned the attack due to lack of time did actually get moving again in the end, but took a while, The first one as far as I can tell just fell into some big hole, and never managed to climb out again lol.

Back to the ammo again Dave, sorry mate I must be driving you nuts with it by now [:'(]

Ok so we have agreed that the ammo expenditure is about right now, but some of the old scenarios are still set up for when ammo used to last forever.
Look at this screen of Elsenborn.
Peiper group arrived on map at D1 18.56, even though their Depot was on map it was not available until D2 1800. With each unit now burring through its entire on hand supply in 30 min that makes most of Peipers group useless for 23.5 hours within the first 24 hours of arriving on map.
Well I know most of that will be spent moving but still seems a bit excessive.

Do you think the old scenarios might need a bit of tweaking, to account for the new ammo expenditure, or is that how it happened historically, and they were out of supply for the first 24 hours of the offensive?

[wodin]

This is where you'd think these units with trucks and halftracks in the estabs would have lots of ammo on hand..enough for a couple of days fighting.

[BigDuke66]

At least for now a high ROF setting isn't advisable at all. Saw some companies also burn away their ammo with this setting and being not really useful after that.

I wonder if there isn't a chance for redistribution of ammo under units that are making an attack together, I saw some battalion attacks were 1 company runs into an enemy company and burns away its ammo while the other companies don't meet the enemy and so still have plenty of ammo left.
Or what about a re-planing of the attack in such cases, units still attacking while being out of ammo doesn't make much sense so letting them switch to at least defend seems necessary, that is more or less what the player also does because if he pulls out such companies on the attack the whole attack gets re-planed anyway so maybe an automatic rearrangement while attacking would be good here.

At least I would prefer are redistribution of ammo.

[BigDuke66]

Just checking my running Elsborn ridge scenario and what wonders me is the some battalion don't seem to have a supply base at all.
An example if the I Bat 9 FJ Regt, it shows -No Supplying Base- although 1 company has already run out of ammo and the ammo setting for the bat. attack was set to Max.

Other units seem to have bases further away, example here I Bat 27 Fus Rgt that has the 12 VGD as base but its own base the 27 Fusilier Rgt would be a bit closer, also the 12 VGD Base has no ammo anymore and so it doesn't wonder that the high ammo settings didn't seem to have an effect on ammo supply.

So what's up here? I can only imaging this comes from the way the scenario starts with battalions in place but some regiments coming in later as reinforcements.
A way of clearing up these messed supply chains seems necessary.

[Arjuna]

A reinforcement entering will not get a supply base till the next resupply event.

[BigDuke66]

And a reinforcement that should take a part in the supply chain?
As said some bat. seem to skip there regimental bases and draw from the divisional bases, what is a problem because they usually provide ammo for the artillery units on the map what is already a high drain lloking at how much artillery there is for the German side.

[jimcarravall]

The issue you experience isn't that far removed from real world operations.

Sound supply support planning requires allocating sufficient stowage space to carry an amount of supplies for "normal" combat operations from the time the unit enters combat until it can be included in its higher headquarters' next "regular" resupply cycle.

For most heavy units, resupply is on a 12 or 24 hour "standard" cycle with special deliveries for emergency requests (limited by the amount of supplies on hand and the amount of transport needed to meet emergency needs).

So, a lag on receiving "new" supplies for several hours after arrival on the battlefield is "normal" though not desirable if the arriving unit expends all its ammo and fuel in the first hour of operation.

[wodin]

Like the re planing idea when a unit runs out of ammo..it should want to swap out of the front line for another coy..or the leaders would decide to do it I'd have thought. If that happened when possible it would ease any micro management due to ammo shortages.

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

At least for now a high ROF setting isn't advisable at all. Saw some companies also burn away their ammo with this setting and being not really useful after that.

I wonder if there isn't a chance for redistribution of ammo under units that are making an attack together, I saw some battalion attacks were 1 company runs into an enemy company and burns away its ammo while the other companies don't meet the enemy and so still have plenty of ammo left.
Or what about a re-planing of the attack in such cases, units still attacking while being out of ammo doesn't make much sense so letting them switch to at least defend seems necessary, that is more or less what the player also does because if he pulls out such companies on the attack the whole attack gets re-planed anyway so maybe an automatic rearrangement while attacking would be good here.

At least I would prefer are redistribution of ammo.