Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing.

[jday305]

I hate strawberries!! I'll take any other flavor but that. LOL

[Ranger33]

You mentioned AI War, which I just picked up on Steam since it was indeed on sale at a really low price. About $5 for the game plus all DLC. I had tried the demo before and found it to be interesting but I didn't have the time to get into it. For $5 I'm more than willing to take a shot at it. Might not make the developer a ton of money, but it's one more potential customer for future DLC and a little cash immediately. Obviously, not every game is only worth $5, this is just an example.

Just for fun I looked, and the regular Steam price for the bundle is almost half the price on the Matrix store, for the exact same product. Craziness. How many copies could they possibly be selling of these sorts of games, where the price here far exceeds even the regular price elsewhere, much less the occasional sale prices.

Like others said, this is different for a new game. I can understand leaving the price full or close to it for the first year or two to discourage customers waiting them out for a better deal. Once we start talking 5+ years, the market shifts. It stops making sense to sell what I can only assume to be near zero copies of many games, regardless of the high amount of revenue per sale.

Even Battlefront has dropped some of their prices to match the prices of stuff also available on Steam. I recall most recently PT Boats. Which of course they announced with great fanfare, as if it was their idea in the first place. Speaking of Battlefront, I really want to get TacOps4, but not for $25. Are they crazy? That's more than CMSF costs. Doesn't make any sense at all.

[Scott_WAR]

There are two ways to expand your market. Gameplay and price. Obviously people do not want the gameplay to be dumbed down to attract a broader market. So, with the absolute refusal to lower prices Matrix and Slitherine are ensuring that this will remain a niche market. There are a lot of people out there who would probably love these type of games if they tried them,...but when you have a really high price, not many are going to risk it, especially if they have no demo to try.

Right now its obviously not that big an issue to them. But they may want to wake up and think of the future.........the gamers that are buying now are not going to live forever,...if they don't get some new blood into the niche market,.....the market will disappear in time.

[wodin]

Which is a point that seems to be missed totally by Slitherine and even other wargame publishers\developers.

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

There are two ways to expand your market. Gameplay and price. Obviously people do not want the gameplay to be dumbed down to attract a broader market. So, with the absolute refusal to lower prices Matrix and Slitherine are ensuring that this will remain a niche market. There are a lot of people out there who would probably love these type of games if they tried them,...but when you have a really high price, not many are going to risk it, especially if they have no demo to try.

Right now its obviously not that big an issue to them. But they may want to wake up and think of the future.........the gamers that are buying now are not going to live forever,...if they don't get some new blood into the niche market,.....the market will disappear in time.

[tevans6220]

Here's the thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If PON wasn't making any money for Paradox or on Steam even with a lower price, how does Slitherine/Matrix figure it's going to make any money selling it for a higher price? How much money could they possibly make now? I'm sure they'll get a few sales but anybody who wanted it probably already has it and paid a cheaper price for it. They just aren't going to make a huge amount of money off PON now. They should be doing what WalMart does. Breaking even or taking a loss on certain products to attract customers to other products. I don't see that happening though because they don't seem willing to drop prices on any of their older games. And most of what they sell is old or rehashed games. Take a look at their catalog.

I love the Ageod guys but if they couldn't make it work on their own and they couldn't make it with Paradox, I just don't see how Slitherine/Matrix is going to make that much difference. The problem is they release games that need an abundance of patches. I applaud the Phils for supporting their products but as a consumer it gets tiresome. Just once I'd like to buy an Ageod product that needs relatively minor patching. I said it almost 3 years ago and I'll say it now, PON is a bad game. Saying it and arguing with fanboys about it got me perma banned off the Paradox forums. The idea behind the game was good but whoever thought waiting 5+ minutes a turn in a 1000+ turn game needs their head examined. Gaming is supposed to be a form of entertainment not a hassle. And now the price goes up from when it was originally released several years ago. Doesn't make any sense at all.

[Nemo84]

Speaking as a long-time lurker who is quite interested in a whole bunch of older Matrix titles but is simply incapable of paying the ridiculous prices asked, I'll just leave this link here. It's a small indie dev talking quite openly about the benefits of regular 50% off sales.

The games sold by Matrix are considered niche for two main reasons: the price and the interface. The prices which quite often exceed those of newly-released AAA titles deter new players from trying these games, as they won't take such expensive risks on a game they might like. And the interface of these games is quite often so horribly bad and unprofessional that it only further alienates potential customers. WitP:AE with a somewhat decent user-friendly interface being sold at $25-$30 during a Steam midweek sale could easily top the Steam sale chart and bring in more money during that single week than it does now in several years.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Shunwick I wasn't talking about AGEOD as they are now part of Slitherine..I'm talking about developers of other games here that aren't part of the company and whose games that are getting on are sold at prices that I very much doubt anyone buys..there by they got no money in whatsoever. I know of at least one who has issues with the pricing policy of the older games and could compare the amount of money brought in from the games that weren't Slitherine exclusive so they could be sold cheaper elsewhere compared to the amount the games sold here at the higher price..This tells me the pricing policy for older games isn't in the developers interest at all.

Wodin,

I am not trying to defend Slitherine Group's pricing policy.

My interest is in a strong and vibrant wargame community. I would like to see quality wargames produced and sold at prices that customers can afford and gives publishers and developers the income they need to support their games, to create new ones, and to make reasonable profits on their investment.

I believe that is also Slitherine Group's objective.

Now, does their pricing policy support this objective? I do not know.

The bundles article that you linked in the opening post appeals to me as a customer. Of course it does. It would be surprising if the Slitherine Group has not, at least, considered something along those lines.

And just be clear, I am neither a flag waver nor an implacable opponent of Steam. But clearly, Steam is not the one-size-fits-all solution that many people like to suggest.

Ultimately though, the Slitherine Group manage their business according to their knowledge and experience. Are they correct with their pricing policy? Again, I do not know. I hope so for all our sakes.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

There are two ways to expand your market. Gameplay and price. Obviously people do not want the gameplay to be dumbed down to attract a broader market. So, with the absolute refusal to lower prices Matrix and Slitherine are ensuring that this will remain a niche market.

I'm not sure the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Matrix themselves have established a clear division between some 'premium' wargame titles and the rest of their catalogue that is generally accepted by we regular punters. For reasons I won't bore you with I'd also include Field of Glory and its many expansions in that group as well. Nobody is howling about the price of WitP, WiR and Command Ops because everyone accepts those titles both do retain a high market value, have no real competition, and in all probability are at the prices that maximise the bottom line.

There's no need to dumb down to expand the market, but there is a need to get less 'grog' titles out to the masses, under the same sort of marketing policy as competing products. Carriers at War is a good example; how many copies of that have been sold recently? Really? Yet would would a 'real' sale or heavy discount on game that old really effect people purchasing plans re new games? I might wait a couple of months for a price reduction in a game I fancied, but not five years!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Speaking as a long-time lurker who is quite interested in a whole bunch of older Matrix titles but is simply incapable of paying the ridiculous prices asked, I'll just leave this link here. It's a small indie dev talking quite openly about the benefits of regular 50% off sales.

The games sold by Matrix are considered niche for two main reasons: the price and the interface. The prices which quite often exceed those of newly-released AAA titles deter new players from trying these games, as they won't take such expensive risks on a game they might like. And the interface of these games is quite often so horribly bad and unprofessional that it only further alienates potential customers. WitP:AE with a somewhat decent user-friendly interface being sold at $25-$30 during a Steam midweek sale could easily top the Steam sale chart and bring in more money during that single week than it does now in several years.

warspite1

I believe you are missing out the most important reason for their status - i.e. the relatively small demand for these games compared to other computer game types.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

warspite1

If PON wasn't making any money for Paradox or on Steam even with a lower price, how does Slitherine/Matrix figure it's going to make any money selling it for a higher price? How much money could they possibly make now?

That depends doesn't it? 50 people buying at $1.99 will net less considerably less income than just
10 people at $25.99.

How much money could they possibly make now? I'm sure they'll get a few sales but anybody who wanted it probably already has it and paid a cheaper price for it. They just aren't going to make a huge amount of money off PON now.

But how do you know that? Matrix have invested their cash, they have taken the risk. Why are you so dismissive of their ability to understand the market? You may be right, you may be wrong but you cannot state as fact.

They should be doing what WalMart does. Breaking even or taking a loss on certain products to attract customers to other products.

Why? Who says? Their argument is that making losses on games ensures new games cannot aford to be developed. I do not know for certain but I would hazard a guess that Matrix ability to take loss leaders is not quite and big as someone like Walmart....

[catwhoorg]

Regular 50% off sales, means those planning on buying said game, just wait for the sale.
At that point why not just cut the base price 50% ?

Personally, I'll pay a little over the odds due to Slitherine/Matrix excellent customer service (in my experience).
I'd much rather pay a good amount for a game, and get the support they all need. Heck compared to console games, most of these are cheap and much better supported.

I know nothing of business or marketing, and I'll retreat to my ivory tower after those thoughts.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

warspite1

There are two ways to expand your market. Gameplay and price.

Up to a point - the market can only ever be so big - and the point is, this is not a big market we are in.

Obviously people do not want the gameplay to be dumbed down to attract a broader market.

Which is another issue - as raised recently. This is a small market and yet even within that market, there are huge differences in preference; WITPAE is an unplayable nightmare to some, a religious experience to others.

So, with the absolute refusal to lower prices Matrix and Slitherine are ensuring that this will remain a niche market.

No - price is one component - and not the main one imo.

There are a lot of people out there who would probably love these type of games if they tried them

Maybe...maybe not. And what is "a lot" How many people at school did you know who were interested in war ..and even if so, had the time, money and inclination to play a game?

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg



Personally, I'll pay a little over the odds due to Slitherine/Matrix excellent customer service (in my experience).
I'd much rather pay a good amount for a game, and get the support they all need.

I agree, but isn't part of the problem that they have many premium priced games that have lost support long ago?

[wodin]

Small niche market doesn't wash with me..if the price is right games will sell...and sell well..

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Small niche market doesn't wash with me..if the price is right games will sell...and sell well..

warspite1

What is the right price? For how long? What is "selling well?" Why do people think they know the numbers better than the personnel in a company that lives and breathes this stuff - AND have their money invested in it?

Grown men (and women) playing wargames. Do people really think we are not in a niche market? I have worked for two very, very big organisations across 30-years, I have come into contact with countless suppliers, customers etc over the years too. Do you know I have met only a very few that play other computer game types and a few more that are interested in military history - less than a dozen people total in all that time. However, I have met only TWO other people that are interested in computer/board wargames. Oh yes, we are in a niche market.

[tcarusil]

I have been following this discussion half heartedly, thinking it would die out quickly. But not so.

My $.02:

1. The owner of a product can set whatever price they want, even if it is a stupid price. They have the right to not make money and go broke. Via la free enterprise.
2. Most owners of a product however, are not stupid and try to set a price that will maximize the return on their investment.
3. Enter supply and demand. We are a niche market. Even if you gave a game away for free there would be a limit to the number of people who would be interested. From the demand side as the price goes up, the demand goes down. So lowering prices from that side sounds like the thing to do. However, there is also a supply side. As the price goes down, and hence the return on the investment goes down, the supply of the product goes down. Yes I may be able to sell a thousand copies of a game priced at $1.00, but if it is costing me $10.00 a copy to produce, why would I set the price at $1.00. Somwhere there is a balance where the price generates a demand and a supply that match.

I suspect that the people running Matrix are trying to hit that match between supply and demand. It is not in their interest to set prices too high, (no demand) or too low (no return on investment).

As has been said before, if you don't like the price, don't buy it.

TomC

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: wodin

Small niche market doesn't wash with me..if the price is right games will sell...and sell well..

warspite1

What is the right price? For how long? What is "selling well?" Why do people think they know the numbers better than the personnel in a company that lives and breathes this stuff - AND have their money invested in it?

Grown men (and women) playing wargames. Do people really think we are not in a niche market? I have worked for two very, very big organisations across 30-years, I have come into contact with countless suppliers, customers etc over the years too. Do you know I have met only a very few that play other computer game types and a few more that are interested in military history - less than a dozen people total in all that time. However, I have met only TWO other people that are interested in computer/board wargames. Oh yes, we are in a niche market.

In 50 years, I've only known 4 other people who play wargames. I know many more who don't care how little they would pay for it. If it isn't Team Fortress 2 or Call of Duty whatever, they are not interested. Even at $1.99.

[Nemo84]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I believe you are missing out the most important reason for their status - i.e. the relatively small demand for these games compared to other computer game types.

What is the right price? For how long? What is "selling well?" Why do people think they know the numbers better than the personnel in a company that lives and breathes this stuff - AND have their money invested in it?

A self-fulfilling prophecy, is it not? Currently Matrix/Slitherine policy is doing everything it can to scare away new customers. As a result the only people interested in buying these games is an ever-slinking group of old grognards. In fact the average gamer doesn't even know this sort of games and this publisher even exist. Thus Matrix looks at their financial data and sees their own prejudice confirmed: this is a niche market. But what I and many others are trying to explain here is that the reason for this niche market is the developers and publishers, not the games or gamers. And if only Matrix had the guts to take a risk and get some of their titles out in the mainstream gaming world, we could see who is right.

Right now, there are three main publishers for deep complex strategy games: Matrix/Slitherine, Paradox and Battlefront. Paradox has fully embraced the modern market and is more successful than ever. Battlefront is becoming more and more open to sales and easing up on their DRM, and as a result the new Combat Mission titles become more and more popular. Matrix is still stuck in the early nineties, and I wonder how much longer they'll be around.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

In 50 years, I've only known 4 other people who play wargames. I know many more who don't care how little they would pay for it. If it isn't Team Fortress 2 or Call of Duty whatever, they are not interested. Even at $1.99.

And yet, on the rare occasion these wargames get mentioned on mainstream gaming forums, there is always a whole list of people with no wargaming experience who show serious interest. Interest which usually lasts right until they see the prices. If Matrix could translate even a tiny part of this interest into actual games, the additional profits would be a huge benefit to future development projects. Imagine deep wargames being released after sufficient testing, with professional interfaces and attractive graphics. Yet as I usually tell these people, Matrix seems deeply afraid of actually making a decent profit and becoming a financial success.

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Personally, I'll pay a little over the odds due to Slitherine/Matrix excellent customer service (in my experience).
I'd much rather pay a good amount for a game, and get the support they all need. Heck compared to console games, most of these are cheap and much better supported.

I wonder if the people who for example bought Achtung Panzer or Unity of Command from Matrix would agree with this statement. Matrix customer support is no better than many others in the business, with its ups and downs.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

warspite1

As a result the only people interested in buying these games is an ever-slinking group of old grognards. In fact the average gamer doesn't even know this sort of games and this publisher even exist.

Nemo can I ask what research you have that confirms these two comments please?

You know that the market is shrinking? I suspect you are right but it is the causes about which we disagree. Regardless, how is Matrix reducing prices of all three year old games to $1.99 going to help anybody with an interest in these games being sold in 5 -10 years?

How do you know the average gamer does not know about these sorts of games? In todays world where you can look up just about anything on the internet, you believe there is a whole army of people out there just itching to play wargames if only they knew of their existence?

But what I and many others are trying to explain here is that the reason for this niche market is the developers and publishers, not the games or gamers.

No. The game subject matter and the gamers make this market niche. Ask all your work colleagues tomorrow if they are interested in joining you in a monster wargame about the Punic Wars and tell me how many looked at you like you were smoking crack?

And if only Matrix had the guts to take a risk and get some of their titles out in the mainstream gaming world, we could see who is right.

Could you expand on that please - I do not understand what is meant by this.

And yet, on the rare occasion these wargames get mentioned on mainstream gaming forums, there is always a whole list of people with no wargaming experience who show serious interest. Interest which usually lasts right until they see the prices.

Where do these facts come from please? How do you know? How many? How do you know its price that puts them off?

[wodin]

Nearly 35,000 people have registered here...thats just one part of the wargaming market..they sold what 200,000 Panzer Corps..most games here are just a step up to a new hobby that all those who bought PC will love..niche?..yeah due to the price and not willing to take a risk..PC sold well because it was Panzer General with a face lift..people knew what they where getting for the money..no risk.

Now check out some Indie games..like some of those Japanese story games..that is a niche..and they aren't expensive (not my thing though). Infact many indie games you'd say are more niche than wargaming yet they sell and sell well at a decent price..now whack a $49.99 price tag on them..no sales..