H2H - Wishlist

[Svennemir]

There is one error which is particularly important for ATGs with secondary weapons (and tanks with machine guns):

If ROF(rifle)>>ROF(cannon) then
The cannon will be used only the for first approximately 2-5 OpFire shots depending on actual ROF of the cannon.

Subsequent shots will only feature small arms/MG fire.

This is why e.g. T-34 or IS-2 OpFire is so NOT deadly, while the Panther can just continue firing. Most T-34 models with low cannon ROF, and all IS-tanks, will eventually fire only their MGs in OpFire.

If ROF(rifle)~ROF(cannon) (most German Panzers except with 88+ caliber) they'll fire their main guns each time they OpFire even though they OpFire many times per turn.

This effect, which was particularly visible in 7.1, was reduced in H2H since an overall increase in tank gun ROFs was implemented, especially aiding those which had slow ROF.

You may want to consider this before thinking about ATGs with small arms.

[Svennemir]

By the way I don't think Mortars or other indirect-fire onboard artillery behave "normally" with regards to OpFire. I'm not quite sure about their ability or lack hereof to OpFire, but it seems they are extremely reluctant to actually open fire. Thus, it wouldn't help them that much to have small arms unless I'm mistaken here.

It might be that "Misc. small arms" should be improved, so a crew would actually be able to defend itself. But the misc arms are not that bad, are they?

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Svennemir
There is one error which is particularly important for ATGs with secondary weapons (and tanks with machine guns):

If ROF(rifle)>>ROF(cannon) then
The cannon will be used only the for first approximately 2-5 OpFire shots depending on actual ROF of the cannon.

Subsequent shots will only feature small arms/MG fire.

This is why e.g. T-34 or IS-2 OpFire is so NOT deadly, while the Panther can just continue firing. Most T-34 models with low cannon ROF, and all IS-tanks, will eventually fire only their MGs in OpFire.

If ROF(rifle)~ROF(cannon) (most German Panzers except with 88+ caliber) they'll fire their main guns each time they OpFire even though they OpFire many times per turn.

This effect, which was particularly visible in 7.1, was partially in H2H since an overall increase in tank gun ROFs was implemented, especially aiding those which had slow ROF.

You may want to consider this before thinking about ATGs with small arms.

Ahh, thanks...but my question is, does a second weapon actually reduce the amount of OPFire a gun is getting, or is it simply, that the second weapon fires even if the first one is not allowed any longer ? In the second case it wouldn't have a negative effect...

BTW, you will like this one Svennemir: I'm slow, but sometimes it get's done nevertheless...I limited the Russian T-34s to only one uparmored model...I needed the slots for the first T-34/85 version that was not in the game and a regular T-34m42 model to get the better BR-354B rounds in

[Gallo Rojo]

I don’t think that adding defensive weapons to field guns and ATG is a good idea.

Reasons are those given in the thread mentioned by Tracer (namely, crews can’t fire weapons and service the gun at the same time).

If you want some protection against infantry for your ATG I think that the best solution is to buy a MMG and place it in the same hex than the ATG (or the mortar/field gun).
In H2H, you have those MMG with a bipod (not a tripod), which are fairly cheap and you can use them to protect your mortar/ATG/field guns.
In fact, German’s arty plts come with an Arty Plt chief, a couple of tubes (75mm guns) and a bipod MMG.

[Gallo Rojo]

- I would like that tanks bee more difficult to spot when they move slowly. What I mean is that I would like that Tanks in SPH2H behave more like they do in SPWW2. In SPWW2, if you move a tank slowly and then you live it without moving it for one or two turns it is very difficult to being spotted (specially if they are in a wood). In SPWAW/H2H tanks are difficult to spot only if they are un-moved from the beginning of the battle. But if you move them, they become easy to spot even if you leave them without moving from a couple of turns, making ambushing with a tank almost impossible in anything that wasn’t a delay/defense.

- I remember that in SP I when an infantry squad had lost more than a half of their men it suffered a suppression penalization (something like that it had 10 suppression points that were impossible to abate). I would like to see this in SPH2H –I think that this same stuff is in SPWW2.

- Add the ATR 12th men Squad to Soviet OOB (just like it is in SPWAW).

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo
- I would like that tanks bee more difficult to spot when they move slowly. What I mean is that I would like that Tanks in SPH2H behave more like they do in SPWW2. In SPWW2, if you move a tank slowly and then you live it without moving it for one or two turns it is very difficult to being spotted (specially if they are in a wood). In SPWAW/H2H tanks are difficult to spot only if they are un-moved from the beginning of the battle. But if you move them, they become easy to spot even if you leave them without moving from a couple of turns, making ambushing with a tank almost impossible in anything that wasn’t a delay/defense.

- I remember that in SP I when an infantry squad had lost more than a half of their men it suffered a suppression penalization (something like that it had 10 suppression points that were impossible to abate). I would like to see this in SPH2H –I think that this same stuff is in SPWW2.

- Add the ATR 12th men Squad to Soviet OOB (just like it is in SPWAW).

H2H will behave in general a bit closer to SPWW2...that means infantry is tougher (not tougher to kill, but harder to spot and stiffer in defense) and tanks will also be not as easy to spot...this is due to a general reduction of searching chances...I'm running tests right now and the whole spotting thing becomes very entertaining (and more realistic, I think)...
I can't do anything about suppression routines itself, needs coding
Didn't even knew the 12 men AT squad existed till you pointed it out
Hmmm...it looks a bit strange...what are these twelve men for ? A AT-Rifle takes two men to operate, makes 6 plus one with the PPsH...and the other 5 guys ? Hmmm...not sure about this one (and the Russian OOB is full)...

[m10bob]

I believe the Soviet 122mm ATG and 152mm ATG should only have a rof of "2"..These were both loaded in 2 parts,(projectile being seperate from the charge!).This is mentioned in the book "Panzer Aces"by Franz Kurowski(currently available by Ballantine Books in paperback/America..

[Gallo Rojo]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
H2H will behave in general a bit closer to SPWW2...that means infantry is tougher (not tougher to kill, but harder to spot and stiffer in defense) and tanks will also be not as easy to spot...this is due to a general reduction of searching chances...I'm running tests right now and the whole spotting thing becomes very entertaining (and more realistic, I think)...

You have made a kid (me) happy
And I know a lot of spanish speakers players that will be very happy of when they knew this (I'm going to our forum to tell them right now )

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

I can't do anything about suppression routines itself, needs coding

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

Didn't even knew the 12 men AT squad existed till you pointed it out
Hmmm...it looks a bit strange...what are these twelve men for ? A AT-Rifle takes two men to operate, makes 6 plus one with the PPsH...and the other 5 guys ? Hmmm...not sure about this one (and the Russian OOB is full)...

Those are heavy AT squads for concentrated fire. Red Army employed squads armed only with ATR since mid '41 (I guess, I mean, I'm not sure about this ... any way, they surely employed them in Kursk).
In SPWaW 7.1 this unit is a little bit "hidden": it's placed in with "MIXED" units (you know, where truks, mines, etc. are).
In SPWAW this unit is a 12 men squad armed with 4 weapons: 3 ATR + 1 SMG. You can take a look.

I know a lot of friends (spanish speakers) that miss this unit in H2H -It was one reason for complaining about H2H at discussions in our forum.

I think that you can may be eliminate one ATR Team and replacing it with those 12 Men ATR Sqd.

Best,

Gallo

[Svennemir]

It is not possible to do model 12 men with ATRs in one squad this in SPWAW. The ATR is not a primary infantry weapon, so they will only get one per weapon slot.

Of course one could make a squad with e.g. rifle as primary, then three ATRs in the other slots. Just one possibility.

[Gallo Rojo]

Originally posted by Svennemir
It is not possible to do model 12 men with ATRs in one squad this in SPWAW. The ATR is not a primary infantry weapon, so they will only get one per weapon slot.

Of course one could make a squad with e.g. rifle as primary, then three ATRs in the other slots. Just one possibility.

Well ... may be it's impossible, but it exist!
Go to USSR in SPWaW 7.1, see under MIX and you will find it!
You can buy either a plt or a company of them.

May be you're right about that this unit has 1 ATR as a primary weapon and then the other three (two ATR and one SMG) are secondary weapons ... I don't know.

But this ATR Sqd. DOES exist in SPWaW 7.1, therefore it have to be possible to make the same in SPH2H!

best.

Gallo

[Gallo Rojo]

Ok ...
the unit is under MISC units.

AT-Rifle. Plt/Co

Armored Infantry------SO AT-Rifle Sqdx12 (men)

Weapons:
PTDR-AT Rifle
PPSh-41 SMG
PTDR-AT Rifle
PTDR-AT Rifle

Best,

Gallo

[Trey]

Any news on the update?

Trey

[m10bob]

H2H is better than sausage and suarkraut....We are chomping at the bit for the "update"..........

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Trey
Any news on the update?

Trey

Here's what happened so far:

- reduced spotting and raised morale (resulting in stiffer infantry)
- Finnish and Russian OOB reworked
- Sniper lethality increased
- Bazookas reworked (reduced range)
- lethality of handgrenades increased, amount available reduced
- crew raised in value (15pts) and small arms decreased in lethality
- small arms added to all guns for close defense
- rare and what-if equipement for Germany available for purchase in the Norway OOB from Jan 41 on
- what-if German equipement added (like X-7 AT rocket or Kingtiger with night vision and rangefinder)
- many little adds from requests
- all scenarios and campaigns made for H2H will be put into the patch
- a bundle of ready-to-go maps for PBEM (vic hexes and start lines preset on designed maps)

Right now we're working on the winter camo for Germany, Russia and Finnland.

I'm sure I forgot to mention a few changes...

The patch will take at least a few weeks more, as some testing and final changes are still required.

[M4Jess]

quicky fir P.Leo

please double check Russian Bunkers..there is NO ammo for the ATRs!

Thanx!

Jess

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by M4 Jess
quicky fir P.Leo

please double check Russian Bunkers..there is NO ammo for the ATRs!

Thanx!

Jess

Got it...observation post now has ammo

[M4Jess]

thanks

[Belisarius]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
Here's what happened so far:

- reduced spotting and raised morale (resulting in stiffer infantry)

*cringe* That's gonna make advances even tougher than it already is! Do we really want to premier defensive play?

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the work and effort you put into perfecting this, Leo. I like all other changes, but is spotting really a problem w/ the current H2H? I know I can't see enemy troops for shiat if I don't step on them... :rolleyes:

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Belisarius
*cringe* That's gonna make advances even tougher than it already is! Do we really want to premier defensive play?

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the work and effort you put into perfecting this, Leo. I like all other changes, but is spotting really a problem w/ the current H2H? I know I can't see enemy troops for shiat if I don't step on them... :rolleyes:

Interesting you find advances/assaults more difficult then delaying/defending. My experience is that they are way easier to plan and execute and also usually result in a higher win then being on the defending side.
Over at the Blitz Wargaming Club I got some 30 reported battles now, mostly being advance/assault battles played as mirror games. I never lost a battle when I was attacking, but got beaten pretty bad by players when I was on defense.
And no, I'm by far not an agressive master of attack...actually I used to be way better in defense already back in the old days of SPWW2, but as it is now in 7.1 and H2H I always find it much harder to achieve a victory in defense against skilled players then on the attack...
This was noticed by many (usually the most experienced players of the ladder) at the Blitz and was requested as a change for H2H.
I'm testing the new infantry behaviour for several weeks now with different players and all I can say up to now...the balance between vehicles and infantry hadn't felt that good for a real long time now...

If you fear, that it is a bit tougher to play, I have to admit you're right...it simply involves a bit more tactics...making sure you got close recon elements and leaders with superior spotting next to your advancing troops and also the use of indirect fire becomes more important - when you can't see an enemy, fire at where he's supposed to be...sometimes he gets hit, sometimes not...sometimes he fires back and you see him

All in all infantry is now more dangereous to vehicles driving around without support...assaults with AT-weapons are very successfull against careless tankers...

This change was also a reason, why I didn't want to make a change on the speed of vehicles...the main idea was to reduce the speed, to get more battle appropriate speeds and not these fast adhoc rushes, although in some situations I consider the high speed to be justified and technically absolutely realistic...
But these speed rushes are now limited a bit by poorer searching...you just don't know what you can stumble onto

(...and if you don't like it, just change the pref setting - the whole spotting thing is just that - a default setting, nothing more)

[Belisarius]

Okies, nice to see there's an explanation to it. Guess I'll have to get better at recon. :p

My pet peeve is the opfire. As the game is built like it is, you'll have an effective stop every turn in your advance, when all types of defending units can blaze away at the attackers without having to worry about getting shot at. ATGs will get really tough to deal with. Almost impossible to spot at range, and they'll turn recon elements into shish-kebab before you even get a chance to opfire.

I'll try it when it's ready.