Fall Gelb

[brian brian]

Gort can take Frederikshavn and still end up in France on the first turn - the true cost is one of the TRS missions. The UK Infantry division can hold the port temporarily if the CW wishes to keep it and actually launch operations in the Baltic. It's easy to dismiss CW units in Denmark as wasted and unavailable elsewhere, but easy for them to hold F-havn and cost the Germans action limits and/or resources. The Royal Navy is big and you don't get any victory points for it still being big at the end of the war. The German navy is small.

I think bogging down in Poland is the true risk of this strategy, due to that possible Russian response. One bad combat roll early + a bad weather impulse might be enough for the Russians to achieve that. The reason I mentioned Danzig is that it is a Polish supply source, very handy. The game is not all about resource hexes.


A standard, and smart response to a Japanese attack on the Maritime Provinces (Siberia), is to simply let them have it, or just leave a few units to slow them down some, but not commit to fighting there. Lots of Allied defeats are caused by the Russians discovering the through-put limits of trying to move the Red Army back from Siberia and factories away from the Panzers at the same time.


I would say that once the Pact is broken, Russia could DOW any country it wishes. The Borderlands/Bessarabia demand type mechanisms would be a moot point, but I can't see any reason why Russia wouldn't be allowed to issue normal DOWs and plaster Ploesti all it wants. And there would probably be some neutral minors in the way of German aid for Rumania.


The one thing I have seen curiously missing in discussion of this strategy is - what are the Italians doing? Possibly trying to keep Wavell in Egypt has been mentioned, though it can be difficult for them to operate there while the French fleet is still around and the Axis have few naval air assets yet. I think I would send them across the Alps in this situation. With use of all their air on the surprise impulse, they have a decent shot at cracking the Alpine border, and once they get the first hex, the oooooooze begins.

[Centuur]

Here is RAW on Finland and Rumania:

If the USSR doesn’t claim the Finnish border lands, it can not declare
war on Finland. Finland can only align with Germany after Germany
has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on
Germany).

and:

If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared
war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has
declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls
Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has
declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

So that means that if the pact is broken before the USSR has claimed Bessarabia or the Borderlands, the USSR is not allowed to DoW them. It's the rules...

[brian brian]

I agree that is what the rules say, but I think the language has a major hole in it. You can't use the "exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights" language to disallow one thing (borderland claims) and then require the existence of the Pact to allow another (DOW on Rumania).

I would imagine that the Soviets couldn't "claim" East Poland in the absence of the Pact, though the rules are silent on that possibility. That is how I would probably suggest it played in a face-to-face game if this were to come up. But once the Pact is broken, I wouldn't argue that the Russians were bound by any of the DOW rules that flow out of the Nazi-Soviet Pact special rule either.

The Russians would have to tread carefully to pull it all off - move into East Poland in one land movement step, hope to break the Pact in their next DOW step. But with the Poles still around trying to ZoC the near-by Germans, it might work, though the Germans would get a movement phase in-between, including an aircraft rebase phase, and then who sits where in East Prussia gets very interesting (the Allies could game this by occupying the hex adjacent to Koenigsberg, which many Germans would gleefully allow for the production boost). Or they might have to give up East Poland altogether to do it...but if they can take Ploesti while Hitler marches down the Champs-Élysées, the Panzers and Luftwaffe are somewhat kaput for quite a while.

[Centuur]

Since they can't DoW Rumania, they can't grab Ploesti...

[brian brian]

I wonder if this has ever been asked of the Rules Committee? I would bet they would rule the way I am suggesting. No more Pact, no more Borderlands mechanism, and no more restriction on Russian activity. Logic should be used to trump unanticipated rules situations, not using them as a literal stonewall.

[Jagdtiger14]

Gort in Frederikshavn...assuming there is no bomber in range to ground strike him...the Ju88A1 has double range possibilities. The CW INF Div. is just as tenuous as the SP gun.

Yeah...in 1939/40 I don't think the CW has the philosophy of not getting VP's at the end of the game for being big...that's why I specified not playing with CL's...if playing with CL's you can get away with that kind of thinking early in the game.

Everyone has their own risk factor as what they are willing to begin with in Poland. Personally I don't mind being "bogged down" so long as I can get the Polish resources. You are correct about the game not being all about resource hexes. The greatest resource in WiF is time, and strategic position to that end does trump resource hexes.

What you mention concerning Japan vs USSR is my philosophy as well...although there are some ways the Japs can make it untenable[8D]

Concerning the Italians, I like to use their air power vs France in conjunction with Germany.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Here is RAW on Finland and Rumania:

If the USSR doesn’t claim the Finnish border lands, it can not declare
war on Finland. Finland can only align with Germany after Germany
has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on
Germany).

and:

If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared
war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has
declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls
Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has
declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

So that means that if the pact is broken before the USSR has claimed Bessarabia or the Borderlands, the USSR is not allowed to DoW them. It's the rules...

I do not agree at all.

Where does it state that USSR can not claim the Bessarabia or the Borderlands after the pact is broken? As I read the rules the status of the Nazi-Soviet Pact (19.5) has no relevance at all on 19.6.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Here is RAW on Finland and Rumania:

If the USSR doesn’t claim the Finnish border lands, it can not declare
war on Finland. Finland can only align with Germany after Germany
has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on
Germany).

and:

If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared
war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has
declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls
Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has
declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

So that means that if the pact is broken before the USSR has claimed Bessarabia or the Borderlands, the USSR is not allowed to DoW them. It's the rules...

I do not agree at all.

Where does it state that USSR can not claim the Bessarabia or the Borderlands after the pact is broken? As I read the rules the status of the Nazi-Soviet Pact (19.5) has no relevance at all on 19.6.

That's open for discussion, I believe. If you look at the text of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Finland and Rumania were part of the Nazi-Soviet pact. Perhaps Paul can put this question through to the rules committee?

[brian brian]

I think Orm noticed the key point - 19.6 is not part of 19.5, so the Sovet Border Rectification process stays in place even after the Pact is broken. In that case the Axis would have little choice but to give Bessarabia to the Russians and the Russians would have to DOW Germany in order to DOW Rumania. The Germans facing this looming disaster would probably have to allow the Bulgarian & Hungarian claims to align Hungary to have some chance to defend Ploesti.

Probably the 19.5 mechanisms for the USSR claiming East Poland and the Baltic States could no longer be used.


I was mostly just riffing on the proposed German set-up developed in this thread and then used in the AAR, and pointing out it's weakness in letting Poland hold Danzig. A lot of it was predicated on two things - only the Polish resources matter, and Poland could be disposed of in 1940 if necessary. The Axis runs a serious risk with that second idea - a two front war with Russia and France which might have to be waged on very little oil.

I was thinking mostly along the lines of not further disrupting US Entry with a Russian DOW on Germany (though it would likely be quite good with the Axis generating a few extra 1939 chits in the first turn). But the Russian REServe units are quite good, and would be well worth putting into use for the blitzkrieg into Rumania.

I also question the idea that if "only the Polish resources matter" that the Swedish resources then don't matter and the Axis can take Denmark with a bare minimum of force, and ignore this Allied attempt at creating a distraction for the German action limits and units available.

A few points on Denmark - the proposed Axis set-up left nothing that could reach and attack a CW Frederikshavn, so the CW Infantry division could hold it temporarily. F-havn is about two clear weather moves away from the rest of the German Army.

A German Ground Strike on Gort in F-havn would be at best a 30% chance with a good draw of a Ju-88A1, that hadn't been used yet elsewhere. Lower odds with the Heinkels or any bad weather. If the Germans rebase to Denmark, well, see below, and also Gort then gets an impulse to sail away again. Also re: a Ground Strike on Danzig - it was argued to not use even 3 factor planes in Poland, so Danzig would be fairly safe, and any flipped units there would re-organize for Nov/Dec blocking or reinforcing moves, possibly with the new Polish 6-3 INF on hand.

The potential CW move into the Baltic can become quite a distraction for the Germans. The best Axis response is to simply seal Denmark completely by using a few more Motorized divisions to take every coastal hex. You need a surplus to cover losses to CW Ground Strikes on the Surprise impulse, but they are available via at-start breakdown of the MOT corps. The truly serious way to keep the CW out of Frederikshavn is to send a Panzer corps there, but that precludes the idea of attacking Belgium on the first turn.

If those strategies fail in Denmark, a good Axis response is to send the Italian NAV to the Baltic. But that is the whole point of the Allied move, forcing the Axis to fight on their own ground instead of Allied areas. That is what military strategy is all about, and the Royal Navy has the superior forces to carry it out. The Royal Navy has little need to conserve force with the eventual USN entry and the US Economy backing it up for repairs. Naval combat in WiF is not that bloody (which is why I don't wish to play with CLs, as then losses really become irrelevant). If the Royal Navy (with French help for a while) trades losses with the European Axis, the Axis runs out of ships first, and they have far less ability to replace losses.



JagdTiger, I believe we gamed at adjacent tables at a WifCon too many years ago now. The demands of self-employment have kept me away from that wonderful event for far too long. If I recall correctly, you greatly enjoyed playing the Russians (and probably any Major Power in the game really), and you would be fun team-mate or opponent. But I thought you in particular would enjoy this Russian riposte idea.

I like the "France First" / "Fall Gelb" strategy somewhat and I like that World in Flames allows you to explore it. But I think it can go too far in ignoring Poland. But I don't like the idea that two bad weather rolls end the whole thing, leaving the Axis with no control over what they are doing. Stalin DOWs in January - what do you do then, start over? As I mentioned, you can flip five coins and if three of them come up heads, the Axis go on with the game, but if four come up tails...

[Jagdtiger14]

Brian: Actually I was at WiFcon in Michigan two years in a row (2004 and 2005)...as you say a long time ago now...both times I played the US. In 2004 vs Paul Rae's group, and then in 2005 vs the WiF God himself: Admiral Rader[&o]. We had the pleasure of Col. Glantz presenting to us (2004 it was about the largest tank battle ever that no one knew about, and 2005 was about the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (I really enjoyed the story about the Soviet tank division that got lost in the Gobi desert).

About this thread: I agree with you there can be/are problems with Fall Gelb...as I mentioned to Warspite...if there was a fool proof strategy, the game would be broken and no one would play it. I'm just too worried/paranoid about France than any issues with Poland/Denmark/Baltic...I believe France is where the real war is. The reason the Polish resources matter more than the Swedish ones is that they can not be sunk and do not require cp's.

Theoretically...depending on when CW lands and when Germany rails...there is that 4 mover INF in Copenhagen that could be used to deal with the CW INF div.

No, I don't quit...we might call a game after 1943, but most of our games go to the bitter end .

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Here is RAW on Finland and Rumania:

If the USSR doesn’t claim the Finnish border lands, it can not declare
war on Finland. Finland can only align with Germany after Germany
has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on
Germany).

and:

If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared
war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has
declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls
Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has
declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

So that means that if the pact is broken before the USSR has claimed Bessarabia or the Borderlands, the USSR is not allowed to DoW them. It's the rules...

I do not agree at all.

Where does it state that USSR can not claim the Bessarabia or the Borderlands after the pact is broken? As I read the rules the status of the Nazi-Soviet Pact (19.5) has no relevance at all on 19.6.

That's open for discussion, I believe. If you look at the text of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Finland and Rumania were part of the Nazi-Soviet pact. Perhaps Paul can put this question through to the rules committee?

Posed it to the rules group and Harry replied that 19.5 and 19.6 are separate rules.

So you need the Pact for East Poland and the Baltic States, but the provisions of 19.6 stand with or without the Pact.

[Centuur]

Which than prohibits the USSR of DoW'ing those countries, except when the claims are denied...

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Which than prohibits the USSR of DoW'ing those countries, except when the claims are denied...

Except for Rumania, which USSR can DOW once USSR is at war with Germany.

I see no trouble with the fact that USSR can not DOW Finland if the borderlands demand have been accepted. If Germany aligns Finland then the DOW aspect has no relevance. And if Germany never aligns Finland then CW, France or USA, can always DOW Finland on behalf of USSR.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Which than prohibits the USSR of DoW'ing those countries, except when the claims are denied...

Except for Rumania, which USSR can DOW once USSR is at war with Germany.

Which rule is it that permits this?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Which than prohibits the USSR of DoW'ing those countries, except when the claims are denied...

Except for Rumania, which USSR can DOW once USSR is at war with Germany.

Which rule is it that permits this?

19.6 - The same rule that initially forbids USSR to DOW Rumania.

RAC: 19.6.2 Claims on Rumania
....
Rumania allows the claim
If Rumania allows the claim, it stays neutral and Bessarabia becomes part of the USSR for all purposes until
the USSR controls no hex in Bessarabia. At that point, Bessarabia again becomes part of Rumania. The USSR can
not declare war on Rumania until the USSR is at war with Germany.

[paulderynck]

Yes, as Peter stated - if the claims are made and denied. Or in the case you cite above, the claim must be made and allowed.

But if no claims are made, then Russia cannot DoW either of them. This is abnormal as usually major powers can DoW any neutral minor.

So despite the Pact becoming non-existent, we still have a special rule in place that restricts some Russian DoWs.

More interesting cases if the Pact is already broken, are Denmark and Turkey.

[Orm]

I was only trying to point out that USSR can eventually go to war with Rumania. Germany can not protect the Rumanian oil by keeping Rumania neutral.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I was only trying to point out that USSR can eventually go to war with Rumania. Germany can not protect the Rumanian oil by keeping Rumania neutral.

Understood. And I was only trying to point out that the provisions of 19.6 survive breaking the Pact.

[rkr1958]

Fall Gelb according to Harry himself. Well, back in 1998 at least.

[rkr1958]

Setup - 1939 Poland.