Low CAP vs High SWEEPS test #1

[Lokasenna]

Imagine that [;)].

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Imagine that [;)].

It does surpise me that it was this large a factor in this setup. No other setting produced such a good result for the CAP but switch the pilots to beginners and it's one of the least effective.

Yet all of the High CAP settings produced poor results with the better 70exp pilots, so it's not just about good experience, or settings, or optimizing airframe maneuver bands. It's much more complex.

Imagine that [;)]

[obvert]

Next I wanted to try something new (actually I've now set it up so that I can test two things at once) and I've been itching to try early war situations.

For this I used Buffalo I as low CAP at 9k, 7k, and 5k, with mostly beginning pilots, trying to use something similar to what might be scraped up in the first few months of the war. I used smaller defending groups as you're never going to have 135 Buffs at any one location. So three 27 plane groups, (still a high number) and sent 2 x 27 Ki-43 Ic with 70exp pilots at em at 20k.

So this setting is not a war winner in every situation, but I'll be interested to see what other variations on CAP here produce, especially assuming a few better pilots (after jumping some bombing runs builds them up). I will start mixing up airframes as well, getting some P-40B, some A6M2 and some Wildcats going.

[Lowpe]

I have inflicted horrendous losses on the AI using low layered CAP at Singers early on. Conversely I found Singers requires maximum effort by Japan with overwhelming numbers. No two or three sentai sweeps, you need to send all the Oscars and Zeroes and you need to do it over several days if the Allies continue to fight in the air.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have inflicted horrendous losses on the AI using low layered CAP at Singers early on. Conversely I found Singers requires maximum effort by Japan with overwhelming numbers. No two or three sentai sweeps, you need to send all the Oscars and Zeroes and you need to do it over several days if the Allies continue to fight in the air.

This will need some work, but I'm sure with more even pilots there will be a chance for good results from this kind of setting. I'll also try the setting you recommended more too, 40% plus 20% rest. I still haven't gotten to that one.

I've started to work on sending more groups too to see if number improve the ratio for the sweepers.

At Singers I've seen so many different kinds of strategy. The potential is there for both sides to be successful, but I think played patiently, the Japanese should never suffer there. The key for me is not allowing masses of Sallys to get nailed, thereby increasing Allied pilot quality quickly.

[Lowpe]

I like the 20 percent rest for the SR2 and SR3 planes. 10percent for SR1.

I think this gives your most tired pilots a day off, no reason to lose a good pilot to fatigue.

I agree that if Japan is somewhat tactical early on China/PI/Singers planes won't accomplish much.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I like the 20 percent rest for the SR2 and SR3 planes. 10percent for SR1.

I think this gives your most tired pilots a day off, no reason to lose a good pilot to fatigue.

I agree that if Japan is somewhat tactical early on China/PI/Singers planes won't accomplish much.

Keep in mind that any pilot not actually flying a mission on that day is resting. So if you set CAP to 50%, the other 50% of the pilots are resting. You don't need to use 50% Rest to accomplish this.

[rustysi]

Its my impression/understanding that all A/C at the base with a CAP setting will attempt to get in the action if nothing else is set. The CAP setting just has to do with the A/C that are in the mix initially, or until something happens. Then again I've been wrong before. What say the experts?

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have inflicted horrendous losses on the AI using low layered CAP at Singers early on. Conversely I found Singers requires maximum effort by Japan with overwhelming numbers. No two or three sentai sweeps, you need to send all the Oscars and Zeroes and you need to do it over several days if the Allies continue to fight in the air.

I guess the AI was reacting to ships present in Singers hex. I always disband my TFs there so Japs bombers wouldn't react to them and impale themselves on my CAP.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Its my impression/understanding that all A/C at the base with a CAP setting will attempt to get in the action if nothing else is set. The CAP setting just has to do with the A/C that are in the mix initially, or until something happens. Then again I've been wrong before. What say the experts?

Correct. Exemplars follow.


1. Fighter unit of 12 ready aircraft is assigned an escort mission and has 50% CAP set and no other setting. Not called to do any defending next turn nor do any friendly bombers attack anything.

Result:

(a) 50% of ready aircraft (= 6 aircraft) will rotate during the day in the role of providing CAP. The 1/3 rule applies so 2 aircraft at a time will be airborne providing CAP.

(b) remaining 50% (6 aircraft) are assigned to escort duties. As no bombing raids are launched, there is no need for any escort activity. Those 6 aircraft and 6 pilots undertake a de facto rest.


2. Same as (1) above but an enemy raid is intercepted.

Result:

(a) The initial CAP setting is the initial response to the raid. IOW 2 aircraft will be immediately airborne and the other 2/3 assigned to CAP will become airborne ASAP.

(b) The other 6 aircraft technically assigned to escort, not engaged on an escort undertaking that turn will attempt to get airborne to provide additional CAP. Whether they get airborne in time depends on several factors, key being amount of warning time received and aircraft performance stats. No rest for pilots who get airborne.


3. Same as (1) above except that a co-ordinated friendly bomber attack mission is flown.

Result:

(a) CAP situation the same.

(b) The other 6 aircraft + pilots fly escort and do not enjoy a de facto rest.


4. Fighter unit of 12 ready aircraft is assigned an escort mission and has 50% CAP set and 50% rest setting. Not called to do any defending next turn nor do any friendly bombers attack anything.

Result:

(a) 50% of ready aircraft (= 6 aircraft) will rotate during the day in the role of providing CAP. The 1/3 rule applies so 2 aircraft at a time will be airborne providing CAP.

(b) remaining aircraft and pilots will rest.


5. Same as (4) above but an enemy raid is intercepted.

Result:

(a) The initial CAP setting is the response to the raid. IOW 2 aircraft will be immediately airborne and the other 2/3 assigned to CAP will become airborne ASAP.

(b) The other 6 aircraft will remain at rest and not attempt to get airborne.


6. Same as (4) above except that a friendly bomber attack mission is flown from the same airfield.

Result:

(a) CAP situation the same.

(b) The other 6 aircraft + pilots will not provide escort.

(c) The bombers may end up not flying if enemy CAP over target is too strong compared to any escorting fighters from other friendly fighter units.

Alfred

[PaxMondo]

I agree with everything Alfred has written above as the baseline. It is what I use for my planning of what I want air groups to do. Airgroups will follow this most of the time.

Anecdotal evidence has demonstrated to me that Gary has some randomness on the above and/or other factors can influence air group behavior other than the settings. All this means is that when air groups don't do what I want them to do, I don't whine and complain, I accept that 'things' happen in combat.

EX:
- I've seen high aggression leaders defeat my rest settings and fly*
- Training settings can get involved in combat
- I've had my rest settings ignored and never really been able to state why*
- etc.

How often do I see exceptions? Not that often, but enough that I know they occur. Something like 1% or so, which seems really low except when you think about how many airgroups you have in combat every turn which means if you really look you can see something every few turns on one airgroup.

Again, not disputing anything Alfred has written. But if you see contradictions in the game, don't complain about the advice. Just understand that Gary likes his randomness and there is almost nothing in this game that you have 100% control of 100% of the time.

My opinion, YMMV.

*EDIT: meaning instead of 6 resting, only 3 rest or only 2 rest or none. Doesn't mean all them fly, just not half resting ...

[obvert]

Thanks for the input and more extensive breakdown of the CAP process Alfred and Pax. All of the above is very useful and reminds that as I test to both be aware of the settings and the randomness that may occur.

I've been planning to redo one of my tests to see if ten sets is producing a somewhat useful result or if I need to go to a longer set in light of some of the randomness, weather, etc, that can alter results from run to run.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I agree with everything Alfred has written above as the baseline. It is what I use for my planning of what I want air groups to do. Airgroups will follow this most of the time.

Anecdotal evidence has demonstrated to me that Gary has some randomness on the above and/or other factors can influence air group behavior other than the settings. All this means is that when air groups don't do what I want them to do, I don't whine and complain, I accept that 'things' happen in combat.

EX:
- I've seen high aggression leaders defeat my rest settings and fly*
- Training settings can get involved in combat
- I've had my rest settings ignored and never really been able to state why*
- etc.

How often do I see exceptions? Not that often, but enough that I know they occur. Something like 1% or so, which seems really low except when you think about how many airgroups you have in combat every turn which means if you really look you can see something every few turns on one airgroup.

Again, not disputing anything Alfred has written. But if you see contradictions in the game, don't complain about the advice. Just understand that Gary likes his randomness and there is almost nothing in this game that you have 100% control of 100% of the time.

My opinion, YMMV.

*EDIT: meaning instead of 6 resting, only 3 rest or only 2 rest or none. Doesn't mean all them fly, just not half resting ...

There's no randomness in the settings. If a unit does something I don't like or didn't think it was supposed to do, I go look at it... and there's always a reason it did what it did. Like range settings I did not intend, but were still set a certain way. Rest means rest. The de facto rest that Alfred and I have been yammering about means de facto rest. To get anecdotal, I've played 5,000 turns and never seen it vary.

[Lowpe]

Without the rest component you will fly mangled planes patched together with baling wire and spit. You will see your op losses climb and see lots of messages about engines cutting out.

If the engine cuts out on the first pass or the guns jamming in the replay, you know you need to raise the rest percentage. I think it may account for early running out of ammunition too, although I am not certain here (just a hunch I have from close watching of the replay).

It also helps immensely to have planes in reserve too.

Recap: you have plane fatigue plus pilot fatigue. Only rest helps with this, and when given an escort mission you need to determine the rest percent. The only place to have 0 rest I think maybe on high risk days with your carriers and never two days in a row if you can help it.

Of course your mileage may vary.[;)]





A hard working Oscar Sentai.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

There's no randomness in the settings. If a unit does something I don't like or didn't think it was supposed to do, I go look at it... and there's always a reason it did what it did. Like range settings I did not intend, but were still set a certain way. Rest means rest. The de facto rest that Alfred and I have been yammering about means de facto rest. To get anecdotal, I've played 5,000 turns and never seen it vary.

I don't think I have seen the rest percent violated either. Not ruling it out though.

Did you know if you set a target then the range settings work from the target? I screwed up a lot of long range CAP that way.[:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

There's no randomness in the settings. If a unit does something I don't like or didn't think it was supposed to do, I go look at it... and there's always a reason it did what it did. Like range settings I did not intend, but were still set a certain way. Rest means rest. The de facto rest that Alfred and I have been yammering about means de facto rest. To get anecdotal, I've played 5,000 turns and never seen it vary.

I don't think I have seen the rest percent violated either. Not ruling it out though.

Did you know if you set a target then the range settings work from the target? I screwed up a lot of long range CAP that way.[:D]

Yeah, this came up a while back when I noticed it. It burned me once, badly. A little counter-intuitive.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Without the rest component you will fly mangled planes patched together with baling wire and spit. You will see your op losses climb and see lots of messages about engines cutting out.

If the engine cuts out on the first pass or the guns jamming in the replay, you know you need to raise the rest percentage. I think it may account for early running out of ammunition too, although I am not certain here (just a hunch I have from close watching of the replay).

It also helps immensely to have planes in reserve too.

Recap: you have plane fatigue plus pilot fatigue. Only rest helps with this, and when given an escort mission you need to determine the rest percent. The only place to have 0 rest I think maybe on high risk days with your carriers and never two days in a row if you can help it.

Of course your mileage may vary.[;)]





A hard working Oscar Sentai.

Maybe I just pay more attention to my guys and rotate them more? Because I don't have a problem with planes held together by twine and spit being flown. Also note that the lower a plane's durability, the higher the chance it will be pulled into maintenance because of damage (watch 4E units because you will need to manually stand them down to get planes with 20-some damage into the repair line; with 1E fighters those planes will already be pulled for repairs). You do need to watch the fatigue. What you've posted here isn't great, but it's not awful. I've seen fatigue numbers in the 140s before [X(] when I stopped paying attention to a unit, and the unit doesn't even have to have a mission percentage yet. It happens to me a lot with TBF units on Naval Attack with 0% Search, 0% ASW... I won't be using my CVs, and then one time I went to use them after a long spell in port and noticed the fatigue numbers. The planes weren't ready for days, screwing up my plans. Since then, I always check farther in advance. But I digress a little bit...

The "engine cuts out" and guns jamming messages are just flavor. They don't actually mean anything other than that the plane ran out of endurance, ops, whatever. I'm not sure if damage or fatigue play into those rolls. They very well might.

I've hypothesized before that mandated rest will help keep plane fatigue down, but have no proof because planes are selected pretty much at random from the ready stock of planes for whether they fly on a particular day. Just a possibility. There is no difference between setting 50% CAP/50% Rest and 50% CAP/no other settings in terms of pilot fatigue. The 50% of pilots that don't fly CAP that day will be resting simply because they aren't flying.


I run 0% Rest on 95% of my units all the time. Literally thousands of turns. My Ops losses (and air losses in general) are extremely ordinary. You don't need to mandate rest. You do need to check your units manually every now and again to make sure they don't need to be stood down.

Once I load up my next turn in my Allied game I'll grab a screenshot of a unit that's been flying CAP for dozens, maybe even hundreds, of turns in a row and show you that there's no need for excessive Rest settings. All you're doing with that is robbing yourself of combat power.

[Lowpe]

I understand your post. Read it twice.[;)]

I think you misunderstand how rest percentage works on Escort missions.

For most squadrons I don't normally look at plane fatigue daily or weekly. Monthly at best. That particular Oscar Sentai flies cap every day and also relocates every day. That is a lot of wear and tear. Setting the rest percentage removes micromanagement and also keeps the unit fighting day in day out. Not every day is a horrendous combat, but they can be.

I think the percent rest really works wonders on wave after wave defenses.

But as always, you could be right![:)]

I have noticed when most planes going into repair mode on CV squadrons too. I am not sure what triggers it other than the obvious, but it does take a week or so to straighten out. I haven't seen that phenomena with land based air however.

[Lokasenna]

Here we are. This unit has been training since December 7, 1941. I've never stood it down. The same planes, all war. Granted, depending on pilots, I alternate between Training 100% and CAP 90% (with 0% rest). For 1169 turns so far, this unit has never been stood down.

Obviously, combat changes things. So does the level of air support. You can see from the picture from Tracker that I shifted them from 100% Training to 90% CAP for XP purposes sometimes around turn 1108. They've been running constantly until now, turn 1169, and pilot fatigue is typically 4. Plane fatigue hovering around 10. The particular settings affect this (I fly them at 2K which helps keep pilot fatigue down, but I'm not sure does anything for plane fatigue), but the important thing is to note how rest is not necessary. That's my point.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I understand your post. Read it twice.[;)]

I think you misunderstand how rest percentage works on Escort missions.

For most squadrons I don't normally look at plane fatigue daily or weekly. Monthly at best. That particular Oscar Sentai flies cap every day and also relocates every day. That is a lot of wear and tear. Setting the rest percentage removes micromanagement and also keeps the unit fighting day in day out. Not every day is a horrendous combat, but they can be.

I think the percent rest really works wonders on wave after wave defenses.

But as always, you could be right![:)]

I have noticed when most planes going into repair mode on CV squadrons too. I am not sure what triggers it other than the obvious, but it does take a week or so to straighten out. I haven't seen that phenomena with land based air however.

Relocating does add to fatigue, yes. My preferred method for dealing with that is to run a lower percentage of CAP or stand the unit down.

I understand how rest works on Escort missions (which is not CAP) - those boys won't fly. But then I tend to use dedicated CAP and dedicated escort units. It's just better that way. There's no confusion and you aren't running CAP on range 7 (or 8!) so that your escorts can fly that far with your strikes, for example, which just leads to unnecessary performance issues for your planes that are on CAP.

As to the point about using rest percentages to maintain a longer duration of operations... that's debatable. If your ships get sunk because you don't have enough planes in the air for the first one, it doesn't matter. Aside from that, some hypothetical numbers. Day 1 you have 100 planes escorting, but 20% of them are resting. So only 80 fly. Let's figure combat losses at 20% also, so on Day 2 you're down 16 planes and only have 84 as the maximum. With 20% rest, you're now only escorting with 68 planes. Compare to Day 1 with 0% rest, 100 fly. Even still assuming 20% losses despite the greater number of planes in your strike, you're still at 80 planes actually available to escort on Day 2 instead of 68 with the rest setting. Basically, it's an argument that when you use rest you are splitting your forces instead of bringing the greatest possible amount of force to bear. As the Allies when you need to sustain multiple days of operations, it may be worthwhile to hold a unit or two back to be fresh for a second day of escorting, but as Japan the strikes are pretty much one-shot, one-day. Rarely do you have the strike planes remaining for a second day of strikes, and rarely do you want to have KB fully revealed and vulnerable for a second day.

This calculus changes a bit on land, but not that much. It's easier to attain acceptable levels of CAP with fewer units if you don't use Rest (only 4 units instead of 5 in the case of 20% rest), which makes you less susceptible to airfield bombing and allows you to either defend in more places, or keep units a day away in reserve. The crux of my argument is that using no rest percentages allow you to bring the maximum amount of force to bear at the minimum cost while still maintaining a level of flexibility and sustainability comparable to using some percentage of rest.

One more picture. Maybe a fluke, but no Ops losses all war for this squadron either.

[Lowpe]

I agree with you on rear area training with good AV support and runways. No issues there.[:)] I actually think you can set the range to normal and still not have any problems.

But for planes in combat (and land based air at that), day in and day out, rest works for me. Especially given the need to relocate every day.

I think what we see is there is no right answers, plenty of inferior answers, and a lot depends upon the circumstances your squadrons find themselves in.