Nelson, Wellington and.. er Warspite (God help us)

[warspite1]

Turn 1
January 1-7 1805

Battle of El Ferrol (cont)

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Right I think its time to get this game properly started. I think its clear that the learning curve is going to be steep, but I will try and make it easier than it otherwise could be by setting the options to the recommended default settings.

This means, amongst other things, that attrition will be less harsh, easy supply is on and the AI will purchase replacements. However, Fog of War is on so its not going to be a free ride!

EDIT: Under advice from Loki I also turn the Battle Planner on (Thanks)

Easy supply? Better to not have that. You'll pick up habits that will kill you in a PBEM

warspite1

Okay - last amendment to the optionals.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

See http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?43019-Crashes

warspite1

[&:]

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 1
January 1-7 1805

During the AI turn a Spanish fleet under Cordova sailed and attacked Admiral Calder. The result was a defeat for the Spanish

I am not sure what these numbers mean so will need to read up. To my mind this indicates the British have lost a ship but I cannot see which one.

it means you have lost an element - ie one ship. Only way to spot this is to click on each 'unit' (ie multiple ship counter) and you'll see one with a red band (its clearer to see than explain) on the right hand side display - thats your missing element. To repair, you'll need to send that counter to a port and leavein the green stance.

The detailed reports aren't very informative for fleet battles but can be very useful for land battles, what it does tell is you which of your squadrons engaged which of the Spanish. Note that in every case you had a mild advantage and that added up over the battle. Their notional advantage in numbers was negated as they couldn't bring their extra ships to battle

Of tactical importance you were the defender (blue stance), they attacked (orange stance), from experience in AGE naval battles that is ideal as many ships have better scores when defending than attacking

edit: on the subject of your settings - have a poke around on the AI tab. At the very least give the AI 'more time'. It will slow turn processing a bit but the additional processing resources will really help the AI

[Franciscus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Posture: Defensive. The stack won't engage but if attacked will defend (Note: this sounds a bit strange for a unit that is supposed to be on the look-out for an enemy invasion force! - however there does not seem to be an alternative)

ROE: The stack will conduct combat normally

Hi

Posture and ROE can be changed. Just click on each respective symbol and the other options will appear.

That is one of the so called "user-friendly" changes to Ageod UI... In "older" games like AJE, all options for posture and ROE are visible always.

Cheers

[Aurelian]

You mean these?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

You mean these?

warspite1

Yes but the question was simply to query why Keith, armed with stopping the French crossing the channel, is under order in defensive mode, to not attack.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 1
January 1-7 1805

During the AI turn a Spanish fleet under Cordova sailed and attacked Admiral Calder. The result was a defeat for the Spanish

I am not sure what these numbers mean so will need to read up. To my mind this indicates the British have lost a ship but I cannot see which one.

it means you have lost an element - ie one ship. Only way to spot this is to click on each 'unit' (ie multiple ship counter) and you'll see one with a red band (its clearer to see than explain) on the right hand side display - thats your missing element. To repair, you'll need to send that counter to a port and leavein the green stance.

The detailed reports aren't very informative for fleet battles but can be very useful for land battles, what it does tell is you which of your squadrons engaged which of the Spanish. Note that in every case you had a mild advantage and that added up over the battle. Their notional advantage in numbers was negated as they couldn't bring their extra ships to battle

Of tactical importance you were the defender (blue stance), they attacked (orange stance), from experience in AGE naval battles that is ideal as many ships have better scores when defending than attacking

edit: on the subject of your settings - have a poke around on the AI tab. At the very least give the AI 'more time'. It will slow turn processing a bit but the additional processing resources will really help the AI

warspite1

Okay I have found the red band (just). HMS Neptune needs a good deal of TLC.

Where did you find all that analysis about number of guns, who engaged in various rounds and why there are so many love hearts in the pictures? I could see none of this in the manual.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

You mean these?

warspite1

Yes but the question was simply to query why Keith, armed with stopping the French crossing the channel, is under order in defensive mode, to not attack.

Defense mode, IIRC, lowers cohesion and supply loss.

Hover your mouse over the symbols in the detailed battle screen for the tool tips.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...
Where did you find all that analysis about number of guns, who engaged in various rounds and why there are so many love hearts in the pictures? I could see none of this in the manual.
...

The hearts are the number of elements/hit points, the hatched square shows you the combat power of the unit.

Hit points matter as once a stack has selected another stack to fight they determine the likely target - more hit points more likely to be targetted. In this case you had one stack on each side so the first phase of the combat routine was set aside.

Being the biggest unit on the battlefield can bring problems - especially in land battles with artillery, but also its probably your most powerful unit (so again its a trade off). In a naval battle there is not much you can do as the squadrons are all prebuilt but its something to bear in mind when designing divisions for land forces.

Each line of the combat report shows a clash within the overall battle. Note that 2 of your squadrons picked on the Morroco Sq and the single (powerful) ship Asturias squadron was picked by a relatively large Northumberland Sq. I'd suspect that most of the ships you sunk came from those two enemy squadrons.

The combat engine is designed on the logic that you set your forces up for battle (and there is a lot of tricks here) and then its executed for you. If you want more info on what actually happened you need to dig into the game logs (and these are not served from turn to turn). AGEOD have gone back and forth over this issue. In some early games (Rise of Prussia) the detailed on screen log was incredibly informative but the recent set its more indicative - but land battles will give you more information than naval ones do.

edit: some of this comes from practice, but my guess is that the Spanish fleet included transport units. Its the only explanation I can think of for the relatively high number of hit points and combat power (your top level report) compared to the detail. Its one of the many reasons why the raw combat power score is useful but not completely reliable when planning operations

[warspite1]

Well loki I must say I feel like the thickest man in the world right now. The manual gives me over 20 pages of Napoleonic timeline, but - unless I am completely missing the point - does not tell me what just happened in a battle.

The section on Naval Combat is precisely 5 lines long! Now I guess some of the preceding land combat info may apply, but not much if any.

Example:

- In the summary it looks like the British lose/damage one ship and the Spanish five (together with the number of men lost by each).

- From what you showed yesterday (nothing I could see in the manual) those ships may be lost or may be damaged. I now know I need to search the bottom right hand corner of the screen for information on this. Presumably there is no way to find out about the fate of the Spanish ships?

- (Still on the summary) Below these numbers are two more numbers each:

British (Spanish) - Heart (hit points?) = 17 (69) and a church on its side (Combat power?) = 417 (706)

What do these mean? What is the significance of these numbers here? Are they what the ships have left? Are they what happened during the battle? Because when I look at the detailed summary I see more hearts and churches (for each squadron), but these numbers do not seem to tally with what was in the previous screen (which I assume was some sort of total (of something) - although I don't know what of?).

- The report (seems to suggest) that there was only one round - although one Squadron was set on twice? Would this have been a function of the British having more squadrons? a lucky dice-roll? or don't I need to worry about this?

I really appreciate your help because this is like wading through treacle. First turn I get a decent naval battle - and so here is a great opportunity to look at what happened?, why? and what steps I now take in response, and instead I find the manual doesn't even give me basic information to read the battle reports!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

You mean these?

warspite1

Yes but the question was simply to query why Keith, armed with stopping the French crossing the channel, is under order in defensive mode, to not attack.

Defense mode, IIRC, lowers cohesion and supply loss.

Hover your mouse over the symbols in the detailed battle screen for the tool tips.

warspite1

Yes but the question remains, why would a unit, designed to put itself in harms way if an invasion where coming, not do so?

[warspite1]

Turn 2
January 8-15 1805

While I wait to see if loki can make some sense of those naval reports, lets see what else is going on at the start of the second turn.

I start with the top of the screen.



That's a nice touch, if we take a look at the victory points and hover over it, the program gives a summary of the changes for that turn.

So I started off with 3,750
I've then:
- lost 16 from regional decisions (these I assume are the decisions I made last turn to gain money, horses etc)*
- gained 10 from the naval battle (The Battle of El-Ferrol)
- gained 40 from objectives under control (I will have a look at the objectives screen as I do not know what I would have done to gain objectives last turn).

Total = 3,826

* The decisions cost 26 Victory Points (10 - Dublin, 15 - Liverpool and 1 - London). May be the Dublin one hasn't taken effect yet?

Similarly for money

Initial Amount £7,500

- Plus city income 377 (need to understand this)
- less Unit recruitment - 225 (that was the supply unit cost)
- Regional Decisions 500 (? I didn't think that cost any money?)
- less maintenance - 128 (need to understand this)
- Merchant ships 380 (need to understand this but the figure ties in with the money reported as being sent via the merchant fleet in the reports)

Total = 8,404

And for Conscripts

Starting with 300

- less 300 for unit recruitment (the supply unit)
- Changes from cities income 335 (the manual simply says "regular additions to your force pools will come from cities and regions you own)
- less 80 from maintenance (need to understand this)

Total = 255

Tons of War Supplies starts with 1000

- plus 197 from structures production (need to understand this)

Total = 1,197

Horses starts with 300

- plus 71 from structures production (as per above the manual simply says "regular additions to your force pools will come from cities and regions you own)

Engagement Points starts with 60

- plus changes from cities 14

Total = 74

Last but not least is National Morale which has gone up from 105 to 108 thanks to Admiral Calder's fine victory [:)].

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Yes but the question was simply to query why Keith, armed with stopping the French crossing the channel, is under order in defensive mode, to not attack.

Defense mode, IIRC, lowers cohesion and supply loss.

Hover your mouse over the symbols in the detailed battle screen for the tool tips.

warspite1

Yes but the question remains, why would a unit, designed to put itself in harms way if an invasion where coming, not do so?

I'll answer this one first as I am being attacked by hungry cats [;)]

its a trade off, if you sail around in defensive mode you can stay at sea (ie retain cohesion) much longer and have a reasonable chance of interception - your glorious Spanish victory is an eg of this.

if you go into attack mode you are looking for battle, so run up higher cohesion and can stay at sea for a shorter period of time (fleets must go to port to recover cohesion) but are much more likely to intercept.

I would think of attack mode as your ship is now fully prepared for combat, everything loose is tied down, you've dragged ammunition to the guns, spotters are on alert etc. In effect, its not a very convenient place to do lots of things you need to do on a routine patrol. In defend mode your ship is structured to make sailing around easier.

one reason the AGE system is worth putting up with the learning curve is that there are lots of this rock/paper/scissors style dilemnas. No right answers, you can always get caught out. In a recent WiA game I evaded a British squadron by using the green stance and the naval evade order - if he'd caught me my ships would have been sunk without response, but got away with it and had fun raiding his merchants.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well loki I must say I feel like the thickest man in the world right now. The manual gives me over 20 pages of Napoleonic timeline, but - unless I am completely missing the point - does not tell me what just happened in a battle.

The section on Naval Combat is precisely 5 lines long! Now I guess some of the preceding land combat info may apply, but not much if any.

Example:

- In the summary it looks like the British lose/damage one ship and the Spanish five (together with the number of men lost by each).

- From what you showed yesterday (nothing I could see in the manual) those ships may be lost or may be damaged. I now know I need to search the bottom right hand corner of the screen for information on this. Presumably there is no way to find out about the fate of the Spanish ships?

- (Still on the summary) Below these numbers are two more numbers each:

British (Spanish) - Heart (hit points?) = 17 (69) and a church on its side (Combat power?) = 417 (706)

What do these mean? What is the significance of these numbers here? Are they what the ships have left? Are they what happened during the battle? Because when I look at the detailed summary I see more hearts and churches (for each squadron), but these numbers do not seem to tally with what was in the previous screen (which I assume was some sort of total (of something) - although I don't know what of?).

- The report (seems to suggest) that there was only one round - although one Squadron was set on twice? Would this have been a function of the British having more squadrons? a lucky dice-roll? or don't I need to worry about this?

I really appreciate your help because this is like wading through treacle. First turn I get a decent naval battle - and so here is a great opportunity to look at what happened?, why? and what steps I now take in response, and instead I find the manual doesn't even give me basic information to read the battle reports!

ok cats fed.

First you can play the AGE games and never look at the detailed reports - in a way the games are designed that way. You make the big choices - stack design, divisional structures, stances, movement and the game engine does the rest.

So in that battle there was indeed only one round. What happens is a sequence (more in the war room if you need it). First stacks (ie the units you move around) select a target. Second once the stacks are in combat the individual units (in this case the squadrons) select targets.

Due to how it works you can get 1-1 (quite likely), many - 1 (ouch for the 1) or none-1 (ie that stack or unit is left out). Combinations of luck, generalship and the underlying game engine will determine this.

Hit points are the 'elements' (ships, battalions, batteries) that you don't see on the map. The more of these in a unit the more likely that unit will be selected for combat. You are right - these are pre-combat.

Combat power is a rough and ready calculation of relative combat ... power. It multiplies elements by their average fighting effectiveness by their cohesion (so a stack low on cohesion will have very little power). This is often good enough. But some elements are better at some things than others. British infantry are better on the defense, French on the offense. So a British stack of say 500 (average) combat power might be only say 460 if attacking but 540 if defending. Equally some units are better if the battle comes to close quarters. But for the most part, if you see the enemy has more combat power then they are more powerful.

Combat power is also misleading as it will sometimes show units that can't contribute. Reason I think that Spanish fleet had transports is it had a very high notional power - your big summary battle report- but not in combat (I'd guess the difference was land units being transported). Also frontage comes into play - a big stack in constricted terrain can't deploy its power, so a smaller force can beat it.

You are right about the manual - in effect naval reports are treated as a sub-set of the land reports

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well loki I must say I feel like the thickest man in the world right now. The manual gives me over 20 pages of Napoleonic timeline, but - unless I am completely missing the point - does not tell me what just happened in a battle.

The section on Naval Combat is precisely 5 lines long! Now I guess some of the preceding land combat info may apply, but not much if any.

Example:

- In the summary it looks like the British lose/damage one ship and the Spanish five (together with the number of men lost by each).

- From what you showed yesterday (nothing I could see in the manual) those ships may be lost or may be damaged. I now know I need to search the bottom right hand corner of the screen for information on this. Presumably there is no way to find out about the fate of the Spanish ships?

- (Still on the summary) Below these numbers are two more numbers each:

British (Spanish) - Heart (hit points?) = 17 (69) and a church on its side (Combat power?) = 417 (706)

What do these mean? What is the significance of these numbers here? Are they what the ships have left? Are they what happened during the battle? Because when I look at the detailed summary I see more hearts and churches (for each squadron), but these numbers do not seem to tally with what was in the previous screen (which I assume was some sort of total (of something) - although I don't know what of?).

- The report (seems to suggest) that there was only one round - although one Squadron was set on twice? Would this have been a function of the British having more squadrons? a lucky dice-roll? or don't I need to worry about this?

I really appreciate your help because this is like wading through treacle. First turn I get a decent naval battle - and so here is a great opportunity to look at what happened?, why? and what steps I now take in response, and instead I find the manual doesn't even give me basic information to read the battle reports!

ok cats fed.

First you can play the AGE games and never look at the detailed reports - in a way the games are designed that way. You make the big choices - stack design, divisional structures, stances, movement and the game engine does the rest.

So in that battle there was indeed only one round. What happens is a sequence (more in the war room if you need it). First stacks (ie the units you move around) select a target. Second once the stacks are in combat the individual units (in this case the squadrons) select targets.

Due to how it works you can get 1-1 (quite likely), many - 1 (ouch for the 1) or none-1 (ie that stack or unit is left out). Combinations of luck, generalship and the underlying game engine will determine this.

Hit points are the 'elements' (ships, battalions, batteries) that you don't see on the map. The more of these in a unit the more likely that unit will be selected for combat. You are right - these are pre-combat.

Combat power is a rough and ready calculation of relative combat ... power. It multiplies elements by their average fighting effectiveness by their cohesion (so a stack low on cohesion will have very little power). This is often good enough. But some elements are better at some things than others. British infantry are better on the defense, French on the offense. So a British stack of say 500 (average) combat power might be only say 460 if attacking but 540 if defending. Equally some units are better if the battle comes to close quarters. But for the most part, if you see the enemy has more combat power then they are more powerful.

Combat power is also misleading as it will sometimes show units that can't contribute. Reason I think that Spanish fleet had transports is it had a very high notional power - your big summary battle report- but not in combat (I'd guess the difference was land units being transported). Also frontage comes into play - a big stack in constricted terrain can't deploy its power, so a smaller force can beat it.

You are right about the manual - in effect naval reports are treated as a sub-set of the land reports

warspite1

Okay thanks - I'll come back to this when I look at what to do with Calder's force.

[warspite1]

Turn 2
January 8-15 1805

Having checked the top of the screen, let's move back to the messages in the bottom right hand corner. There seem to be a few more this time!

If we look firstly at the scripted events - there's 108 of the ******! although when I first click there are 15??? The moment I start scrolling the 15 disappears and I get 108..... Same thing happens with the other subjects. So if I click on Battle, Retreats and Sieges I get 9 - but these disappear to show 108 as soon as I scroll. It looks like there are 108 messages across the 6 subjects so I won't worry too much about this peculiarity. EDIT This 108 seems to have now turned into 110!!! What is going on here?

Europe appears to be a hot-bed of discontent all of a sudden. No doubt whipped up by Corporal Short-arse. Who does he think he is?

- Bavaria have attacked our ally Hannover
- Holland does the same and declared war against us by extension
- So has Berg (wherever the hell that is)
- Oh and so has Switzerland?? Anyone else?
....
- Of course, Italy too

[looks at the camera] Well they weren't very nice were they boys and girls?

In other (related news)

- the next bunch of announcements are confirming my diplomatic efforts last turn
- Russia, The Turks, Morocco have all got Casus Belli against various countries....
- ... oh and so have Algeria, Tripolitania, Persia, Armenia, Georgia and the Holy Roman Empire. Come on guys, can't we all just get along?
- As far as I know these are just Casus Belli and have not been acted upon.

Are the French using Horsemeat in their restuarants?

- In various regions the French have seized horses
- Volunteers have been spotted at the recruiting depots in Rouen

Back to Blighty and there is news of my attempts to 'get stuff' last turn.

- It mentions "A few Great Britain smugglers showing great patriotism bring much needed war material in region Nantes. I assume that means my play was successful? Well there's no evidence of that this turn so maybe next.
- "Requisitions by Great Britain soldiers are completed in region London". I did not ask for more soldiers so maybe this is just normal turn stuff and included in the 255.
- Both the attempts in Liverpool and Dublin seem to be coming off - or at least have been mentioned here.

A Brave New World in Russia

- lots of announcements pertaining to Russia
- land developments, horses and volunteers
- They raise new taxes - Engagement Points to money
- Austria and Prussia too

Trade and Transport

- My merchant marine are doing their stuff
- Transport ships - many of the routes have much less supply than the maximum going through (I will need to understand why that is)
- Merchant fleets have delivered 380 money

Military

- 17 replacements received from reserve units. Prior to this message there were numerous messages stating conscripts and artillery received. Presumably not 17 individuals? (I will need to understand this)

Spain

- The Battle of El Ferrol has been reported but
- Our patrols have failed to locate the Ardilla Squadron in the Carribean Sea 13% chance of success - Need to look at this

France

- The French have sent money and supplies to Spain
- They have raised more taxes.

- There are three messages stating that a new Government option is available. For who? The French? Nothing happens when I click on this anyway. There is similarly duplicated messages for National Military Modifier and National Government Modifier. I will check F3 and F4 later.

Tea and Medals!

- Arthur Wellesley (who the hell is he?) and John Moore are promotable for sterling work in the Empire. I promote them both. No idea why but seems like a good idea.
- Admiral Calder gets a new seniority (4) for smacking the Spanish fleet

Stuff in red - Ooohhh it must be important....

- I get a message marked 'Tallyrand' but is just a Times headline telling me that he is head of French foreign affairs

- Another marked Bank of England. The Bank will provide financial benefits twice per annum (March and September) and the amount is linked to the 'Bank of England' national modifier?

- Ditto for The Honourable East India Company

- General Wellesley (see Newspaper clipping below). Interesting choice.


- The British Raj. Units are locked and if holdings there are maintained then VP's will accrue - as they will for further regions.

More Red Stuff

- National Modifiers. GB is under the influence of 58 National Modifiers (Need to understand this)
- We have 1 Army, 0 Corps and 7 Divisions

I already know the latter and these two messages are repeated three times?

[loki100]

good to see Europe ablaze .. [:)]

going back to your turn overview, few comments that might help. In general this is why I'd advise against doing too much on T1, esp with a Jan 1805 start.

Money - cities produce money, there is a relationship between development level, size and structures. Your regional decision netted you £500 - given your current cash surplus you might have held off on this but it does no harm. Maintenance is the regular cost of your existing units - they also demand a share of your conscripts (think of a few retire and the number of village idiots who manage to self-harm). Both are good reasons to be cautious about adding too much to your army till you have a decent stock of trained replacements. Merchant ships pull in money from the merchant trade boxes. Buying new merchants is almost always a good idea as they will pay for themselves. Keeping the evil Corsican out of the trade boxes is equally a good idea (you don't want to share do you?). Regular sources of money doesn't arrive every turn, so you need to store some of each allocation.

Conscripts - thing to watch here is they don't turn up every turn. Off the top of my head I forget if it is monthly or six weekly, so that regular batch from the cities has to last you a while.

War supplies similar to money but come from some structures - again development level plays a role here

VPs - you gain for cities/objectives you already hold (I think its the F10 tab), in addition you get one off gains/losses if you take something important. Worth remembering the target province list is asymetric - ie your targets are not everyone else's - its one way that states are given very different goals. I've messed around a bit with Austria and once you've got the Corsican Ogre safely married away, the Balkans do rather take your eye. Worth remembering for your coalition building activities.

EPs - are a key in game currency, you'll need for many national decisions and to play some cards

NM - tends to 100 (ie it adapts over time back to the mean unless you hold someone's capital). The lower it is, the worse an army will fight and vice-versa. Also affects will to carry on the war. UK and France can't make peace but you can force France to surrender (and for this you really need to be partying in Paris).

[warspite1]

A few questions please on fleets and supply and 'stuff'.

What do players do when playing as the British and try to maintain a blockade? Do they:

a) set up a rotation system, creating more, but smaller fleets, and/or
b) sail transport squadrons to the blockading fleets? If the latter, presumably they themselves are going to need a protective fleet.

c) can warships enter the circles with the merchant fleets in and try and find and sink enemy ships?

d) also, with Fog of War on, to what extent can the French and Spanish in port see the enemy at sea?

[warspite1]

Turn 2
January 8-15 1805

As advised by Loki I decide not to make any purchases this turn - and I also do not make any diplomatic moves pending seeing what happens with my initial forays overseas.

Pending sage advice on the naval niceties above, what I do attempt to do is get Calder back to the UK following his victory, and to achieve this I send Admiral Jervis to Finistere (from Pointe du Raz) and send Admiral Gardiner (from Portsmouth) to replace him. Gardiner fails to take up station but will make it next turn. Meanwhile Calder eschews sailing up the Channel coast and instead heads for Portsmouth - in his weakened state - via Cherbourg! Let's hope there are no nasty surprises waiting there..... I also move Gambier to sea in the Caribbean in response to recent Spanish aggression. How dare the Spanish sail in Mare Nostrum!

As a result of these manoeuvrings, nothing actually happened (although there is a Spanish Fleet at sea taunting Horatio). I shall read the reports and see what's what....