Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

[Great_Ajax]

Some of these units were placed purposely to help counter the German players first turn. Some liberties had to be taken since the Soviet player can’t move his units for an entire turn.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Kiev M.D.units setup.

Looks like locations and partially subordination of units for this M.D. a bit far away from
thesis "it is position for the night 21-22 June".

Simple example with movements of 8th Mech corps.
Before start of the war this corps was subordinated to 26th Army.

Locations of units before start of the war:
8th Mech corps HQ(with corps support units)and 7th Motorized division - Drogobych
12th Tank division - Stryi
34th Tank division - Sudovaya Vishnya

On 5:30 units was raised by battle alarm and performs tasks of orders according to cover plans - towards evening concentrates
around Sambor as reserve of 26th Army.
On 20:40 corps was ordered by SW Front Command for night movement to south-east of Lvov for be ready to counter-attack
motorized enemy units in the direction of Brody. By this order corps was reassigned to 6th Army.
From 23:00-24:00 units starts movement to east.

But positions of corps units looks similar to 26 June or something.


So. Two things - locations of some units incorrect or thesis "it is position for the night 21-22 June" does not work.

Some info about units of Kiev M.D. locations and subordinations (that are different from actual, imho):

22th Mech corps
HQ, 19th TD and 215th MD - Rovno
41th TD - Vladimir-Volynsky(41th Moto-rifle rgt - Lyuboml)

9th Mech corps
HQ, 131th MD, 35th TD - Novgorod-Volynsky
20th TD - between Shepetovka and Slavuta

19th Mech corps
HQ and 43th TD - Berdichev
40th TD - Zhitomir
213th MD - Vinnitsa

15th Mech corps - subordinated directly to Kiev M.D.
HQ and 212th - Brody
10th TD - Zolochev
37th TD - Kremenets(37th moto-rifle rgt - Berezhany)

4th Mech corps
both TD closer to Lvov

16th Mech corp
HQ - Kamenets-Podolsky

24th Mech corps
45th TD - Yarmolnitsy
49th TD - Starokonstantinov
216th MD - Proskurov

5th Cavalry corps - subordinated directly to Kiev M.D.
HQ and 14th Cavalry division - Slavuta
3th Cavalry division - subordinated to 6th Army

37th Rifle corps - subordinated directly to Kiev M.D.
HQ and units - between Proskurov and Tarnopol on movement to west

36th Rifle corps
HQ and units - between Shepetovka and Starokonstantinov on movement to west

[Dreamslayer]

[/quote]

Some of these units were placed purposely to help counter the German players first turn. Some liberties had to be taken since the Soviet player can’t move his units for an entire turn.

Trey

Is it means that positions of the Soviet units are where they entered the battles?
Is it means that OOB/subordination and even status(TOE,supply etc) for some units is not pre-war?

[Great_Ajax]

So originally, the units were placed where they historically started and then they were moved to positions where they could better counter the infamous Lvov Gambit opening strategy. These new locations are probably not where they first saw action.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Some of these units were placed purposely to help counter the German players first turn. Some liberties had to be taken since the Soviet player can’t move his units for an entire turn.

Trey

Is it means that positions of the Soviet units are where they entered the battles?
Is it means that OOB/subordination and even status(TOE,supply etc) for some units is not pre-war?
[/quote]

[Dreamslayer]

So originally, the units were placed where they historically started and then they were moved to positions where they could better counter the infamous Lvov Gambit opening strategy.

But looks like this plan for prevent "the infamous Lvov Gambit opening strategy" does not works.
I can understand great success against NW Front because there was not so many units and low density.
I can understand deep breakthrough and encirclement of Belostok's "ledge" because Germans has 2 Panzer Groups there.
But "Super Lvov pocket" still looks like game exploit.
Maybe units there need some changes in their locations/strength or even fort level 1. It is nonsense when even mobile units that are not in combat just stays around and looks how enemy units passed.

[Denniss]

Players will always find ways to gamble the system so that's the best one could do without adding severe movement limits with possible oder side effects.

[Dreamslayer]

Tank division (1941a).

In the summer of 1940 the USSR military leadership decided to reorganize the tank forces. The first structure of Mechanized corps was accepted, consisting of 2 Tank divisions and 1 Motorized plus the corps HQ and support units.

The first Shtats(TOE) of the Tank division are approved on June 9, 1940.
Then in March 1941 some divisional Shtats change, the main difference is the reduction of heavy tanks in tank regiments, now the Tank division was to have only 63 KV instead of the previous 105.

With the beginning of the war, all peacetime Shtats were changed to the wartime status. Since this change only touched on the "support part", the material part, except for the number of vehicles, tractors, etc., remained the same. The total number of people in the division increases by about 1000. But about this separately.

So, a comparison on the material part.

Columns (in game TOE – Shtat in June,1940 – Shtat in March 1941- name and notes)


About total men in Tank division.

In the game Tank division(41a) have 10649 men.

Columns (Shtat in June,1940 – Shtat in March 1941-wartime Shtat – unit name – Shtat #)


If I'm not wrong “0” at the beginning of the number in Shtat means wartime status.
Apparently, after start of the war the Shtats(TOE) of Pontoon-bridge btn, Motor-transport btn, Medico-sanitary btn was increased to wartime level. Perhaps there was added some others “support “ units,but I've only info about overall changes for the Tank division(9874 to 10940 men) and for the Pontoon-bridge btn(361 to 832).

Main sources:

Evgeny Drig, “Mech corps of RKKA in the combat. History of Red Army's armored forces in 1940-1941”.2005./ Евгений Дриг, «Механизированные корпуса РККА в бою. История автобронетанковых войск Красной Армии в 1940-1941 годах».2005.
It is 800-pages book about forming and actions of Mech corps and some separate Tank divisions until «Tank brigades era”.

Alexey Isaev, “From Dubno to Rostov”.2004./ Алексей Исаев, «От Дубно до Ростова».2004
This book in the Manual's Appendix E: Recommended Reading)

[Tejszd]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Players will always find ways to gamble the system so that's the best one could do without adding severe movement limits with possible oder side effects.

There should be the historical starting positions and an option for other (pre-set like you have done, maybe with a couple variations) or random positions for select units. This would force the German player to scout and hopefully prevent them doing the same opening every game.

German movement limits could be another option but the limit should be a random cost for each hex entered so the impact generally increases with distance and is unknown. This will also prevent the German player doing the same opening every game and make them more conservative

[Great_Ajax]

Dennis is spot on and changes are being made to WitE2 to address some of these issues. Regardless of what we do in WitE 2, players will come up with ingenious ways to exploit and since you can game the first turn indefinitely, I expect to see more of these standard opening moves in the future.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Players will always find ways to gamble the system so that's the best one could do without adding severe movement limits with possible oder side effects.

[Dreamslayer]

Surplus of KV-2.

Currently in the game we have 188 KV-2 in the Tank divisions and 64 in the Production pool. Total 252 tanks. But total production of these tanks is only 204 (104 in 1940 and 100 in 1941).

Presence of KV-2 on 22 June,1941:
in the units and out of tank factory – 153
in the tank factory(Leningradsky Kirovsky zavod) – 51

in the units and out of tank factory:
2nd Tank division – 18
4th TD – 20
7th TD – 1
29th TD – 1
8th TD – 31
12th TD – 26
41th TD – 31
Leningrad armored training courses – 2
2nd Saratov armored school – 1
Test site Kubinka – 1
Factory #92 Gorky – 1(without weapon)
RR echelon for 29th TD – 20 (17 June was sent from Leningrad to Grodno, as a result – 8 tanks got 21th Rifle corps, 6 was captured by Germans on the RR, probably 1 was destroyed in the Lida, the fate of the rest is not yet clear)

The fate of the rest KV-2 in the tank factory after 22 June:
26 June to Smolensk for 7th Mech corps – 30
26 June to Velikie Luki for 21th Mech corps – 10
29 June to Kandalaksha for 1st TD – 2
1-2 July to Pskov for 3rd TD – 6
15-17 July to Veymarn for (probably) tank regiment of Leningrad armored training courses – 3

I guess production pool looks ok, but need to remove KV-2 from 7th Mech corps(34 tanks),34th TD(6 tanks) and 20 KV-2 from 29th TD. Total 60.

[chaos45]

another thing the game doesnt account for is the dramatic effect KV/T34s had on the early battles in 1941...is at least 2 cases of KVs alone either greatly slowing a german advance or even decimating an entire german tank company.

A couple similar situations happened with T34s.....As basically due to game mechanics and exp/morale in-inefficiencies in the soviets you never get these types of results in the early 41 campaign. Which gives the German player the ability to perfectly plan and move their units as its all CV and Soviet CV is crap T1/T2.

Almost like a random event roll needs to be tied into the game when a german unit attacks a soviet unit with KV/T34s or is attacked by them in 1941. Either battle costs them extra un-expected MPs or a panic/retreat result from being unable to destroy them...or even extra heavy tank losses if the attack involved a German tank unit.

[Denniss]

Have changed the tank div's KV assignment based on info found at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0 ... 0%B2%D0%BE

[Dreamslayer]

My main source about KV-2 is book - Maxim Kolomiets "Heavy Tank KV-2",2013 / Максим Коломиец "Тяжёлый танк КВ-2", 2013. https://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/20264623/
This guy wrote many books about different tanks.
I guess it's much better than Wiki.

[Denniss]

Wiki info seems to be in alignment with that book, except for the 29th TD. At least the 20 tanks were on the way to the 29th TD.

[Dreamslayer]

If you don't mind a few notes about tanks.

Tank names:
more correct would be BT-7A instead of BT-Artillery.

There are 2 types of T-28 in the game (T-28 M1932 and T-28 M1940).
More correct would be just T-28 for yearly type and T-28E for upgraded. “E” means “ekranirovannyy” = shielded.

About KV-8.

Production from April (actually from February, but before April only 2) to August 1942. Total production – 102.
Upgrade to KV-8s (like KV-1 to KV-1s). Same factory (Chelyabinsk).
KV-8s production from September 1942 to February 1943. Total production – 35.

Flamethrowers in these tanks. KV-8 have ATO-41(ammo - 92) flamethrower, KV-8s have ATO-42 (ammo-60).
Gun(45 mm) ammo for KV-8s was 114 instead 88 of KV-8.
Gun of KV-8 have name 45mm 20K gun M32/38.
Gun of KV-8s have name 45mm 20KM gun M42.
KV-8s have armor and others stats of typical KV-1s, but first 25 tanks have KV-8 tower.

[Denniss]

BT-7A - changed
T-28E - changed, according to wiki and other sources M1938 tanks with additional armor plates, the rare M1940 may have also received these upgrades, using M1940 was completely wrong (just 12 or so with modified turret)
T-28 M1932 - completely wrong model year (prototype designation), the tank we model is the first major production version M1934 and is renamed as such
I don't see a reason to split the low-production KV-8 into 2 models with even lower production. Stats are already a mix between original KV-8 and KV-8s.

[Dreamslayer]

Surplus of T-28 tanks in the game.

First of all, a few numbers about T-28.
Total production – 503.
111 of them in 1940 was upgraded to T-28E(there was added additional armor plates plus various replacements of equipment).
It's a difficult to say about exact number of T-28 at start of the war. Probably around 400-480.

Next. T-28 in units. I can't found any comfirmations that 297th tank btn(in Hanko),4th TD(Western M.D.),15th TD(Kiev M.D.),6th and 54th TD(Transcaucasus M.D.) had T-28 tanks. More likely that it's confused with T-27 tankettes or something.
6 Tank divisions that had T-28:
1st – 31 tank (plus 7 more was in Leningrad for repair)
3rd – 38
2nd – 27
5th – 30
8th – 68
10th – 51
There is not a much info about where was upgraded T-28E. Only approximate.
2 was in Western M.D.
Around 15% was in Kiev M.D.
And rest in Leningrad M.D. I guess it's because T-28' factory(“Krasnyy putilovets”, from 1934 renamed to “Kirovskiy zavod”) was in Leningrad.
How we can calculate this. We're know total number of T-28E – 111.
Because of rear bases of Baltic,Western and Kiev M.D.'s had huge losses most or even all tanks that was out of Tank divisions we can “to write off”.
So, let 1 tank in Western M.D will be written of and other will be moved to pool.
15% in Kiev M.D can be splited between 8th and 10th TD, e.g. each can gain 8 tanks.
And all T-28 in the 1st Mech corps gain T-28E “status”.

Final composition of T-28 in the TD's:
1st – 31 “E”
3rd – 38 “E”
2nd – 27
5th – 30
8th – 60 “normal” + 8”E”
10th – 43+8

Ok, now we've 160”normal”+85”E” in the divisions instead of 184+227.
What about pool.
We're reduced total number of “E” to 110 . So,110-85(in units)=25. 25 “E” can be added to pool.
With “normal”T-28's for pool it's more difficult story.
There is report for the“Tank” department of RKKA on 1 June,1941. There are numbers of tanks in various conditions of repair status (total 4 categories). Because we're accepted “wiped out” of rears of 3 M.D., we only can use some “normal” T-28 from others(Moscow and Volga). I guess it's would be right if we'll count only 2nd and 3rd categories of repair status. It will be total 15 “normal” T-28's.

Final total numbers:
“normal” T-28 in units 160 + 15 in pool. Total 175.
T-28E in units 85 + 25 in pool. Total 110.

“Damaged” status.
7 T-28 in 10th was “damaged”.
I guess there can be added same status for minimum 10% of T-28 in the units if they don't have it.

A small remark about position of 5th Tank division(3rd Mech corps of Baltic M.D.) in Alytus.
Alytus it's a town on both sides of Neman river. And 5th TD was covered eastern side.
I think need to move this unit to one hex to east (to 55.51).

[Denniss]

We don't have the T-27 tankette in our db but early T-26s shout fit. Will look into the T-28 distribution.

[Dreamslayer]

Frozen front.

Leningrad M.D./Northern front.
10th Mech corps 23 June was moved to border and takes positions in second line of 23A. On game map it's somewhere at line 76.9 – 78.6, with 198th motorized division on right flank.
On 5-8 July both tank divisions of corps moved by RR to Luga defence line. 298th remains because can't be withdrawn from battles.
10th Mech corps HQ was moved also ,20 July was renamed to right sector's HQ of Luga Operative Group.
70th and 237th divisions was moved to Luga line too from 6-8 July.
From 14 July 70th,237th and both tank divisions participates in counter-attacks against Panzer corps around Plussa and Soltsy.

But in game these units can't be moved because there're frozen. 70th RD still stays even on 5th turn when enemy units in 3 hexes.

Remark about industry in Vsevolozhsky(town around Leningrad).
If honest I'm never heard about large factories there during the war. There is factory with 8 Arm in the game. I guess 5 can be moved to Leningrad and 3 to Kolpino(south from Leningrad) ,there was and still is famous factory “Izhorskiy zavod”(during the war produced ammo,armor plates etc.).

[Denniss]

Izhorskiy fac is better represented by a mix of HI and armaments, probably 2:1 or 3:1. Will have a look how it's best done.

[Dreamslayer]

Also “Izhorskiy” produced BA-10 armored cars.
Up to 10 September 1941 all production of BA-10 was there. From August assembling starts move to factory #189 in Leningrad (at game map it's can be NW Leningrad hex).
Production.
“Izhorskiy”:
June – 105
July – 10 September – 331
#189 factory:
September – 51
October – 27
November – 3

Ammo of BA-10.
49 for 45mm gun and 2079(33 discs with 63 shells each) for machinguns.