GD1938V3 First Game

[LJBurstyn]

I think one rule change should be made. American ships should not be able to scout for the Allies in 1938 and 1939. Having "neutral" ships being used as scouts for the Allied player is simply not a "fair" move. In real life I think the German's would have attacked these ships claiming they thought they were British and the American public at the time would have responded by blaming the American government and would have moved even further into isolationism - especially if German groups in the USA used good propaganda against the USA actions. In 1938 to early 1939 German-Americans were definitely against the USA joining the European War.

I like the political aspects of the game but having what I consider an artificial end to the "peace" penalty is wrong both historically and for game play. The preparation for war is a game in itself--can Germany avoid the mistakes made before the war started. If Germany is forced to attack in August 1938 they will lose the war because they will not have the resources to fight the British and French. No source of fuel. Limited supply sources. While the British have enough sources to fight the war without France (India, Indonesia (if the Dutch join them), Australia, and Canada). German production of technology and combat units would be diverted to producing supplies. Germany invaded Czech territory and the British responded by "declaring peace in our time" and abandoning that country to Germany. This cannot happen in game because what Ally player would do what happened in real life. Threaten avoids this but Germany threaten war many times to get what it wanted "peacefully". As the Allies caved every time except when Germany invaded Poland--Hitler thought the Allies would appease him on that since Poland was unreinforceable by the Allies.

I still think this is the best scenario I've seen for ATG but I think it could be better.

EDIT: I think Occupation Theory (OT) should be a card that varies in cost by how many production points are improved. It seems non-real to think that British use of the research would cost the same as Italian who have MUCH fewer people to influence with OT.

[ArmouredLion]

I'm no expert at this game, but from what I have learned the best advice is to be flexible and watch how the winds blow. I attack and my primary trait as a tactician is being aggressive. But as Two Tribe stated it can cost you, if you don't hedge your moves. In my first game in V2, I left my entire British fleet in the Indian ocean not expecting Japan to attack till its appointed historical time. Ned obliterated every last ship for my rigid decision with an aggressive act. In another game against Chuck, as Japan, I made an unexpected invasion, in an area not often attacked and folded his whole front. In this, both Chuck and I were caught with our draws down and drummed with unexpected and aggressive moves. Do they always pay off? No. Should we always consider them and hedge as many possibilities as we can? Yes. For me, if I were to threaten Czechs, I'd prepare for war with them and prepare to attack another critical Ally nation. Maybe Poland and czechs or Belgium and Czechs or Norway and Czechs... or something like that depending on your overall grand strategy. Germany is so advanced in their war machine that they can penetrate and hold two or maybe three ally nations early if you are preparing out of the box. But early and often with contingency plans is the key in my mind. Just my take... I'm now Germany in V3 for the first time... so I might just get spanked... time will tell. but this is my advice, for whatever it's worth

[AstroBlues]

I think it is so tempting for Germany to go to war early. I also think Diplomacy is the order of the day in 1938. Just my two cents.

[cpdeyoung]

@Larry

Since the United States phase comes last it is impossible for them to scout for any other nation. Their news is always old news.

The USN likes maintaining a submarine patrol in these important waters. It is one of the few things they can do. The USN and RN were pretty friendly.

[ArmouredLion]

I agree... and I'm easily tempted. It's a fine line between too early and too late. I think if you can get good success in messing with the Bellux states political relationship with the Allies then it's good to be patient... but if not then France is very hard to take over... if that's your goal. I don't think there's one recipe for Germany...Chuck made an insane dash in 39 for Russia as I'm told...one I'd never take, and he is doing well. Both too early and too late isn't good, but each game has different events I suppose that alter the best time. I'm in the process now of trying to find the right temperature... we'll see shortly if I screw it up or not.

[ernieschwitz]

I don't think there is a specific time set for when you need to attack, Larry. You can attack any time you want. I think of the economic penalties that the west (and USSR) get as a headstart that the Axis gets. If they time it right, then they will be able to win the race, if they have the stamina to finish it. The stamina is built up over time, but the headstart is reduced over time. ... It is a balance for sure. Some of it too will be knowing your opponents and gauging how much you can wait. The longer the wait the more countries will have joined the causes of either side... Is it worth it to wait?

Also there is a falsehood in that Germany cannot get enough fuel (or supplies) before they attack. There is a card that allows for purchase of fuel and supplies from the USSR. It's pretty cheap, for what you get. Of course here the trouble is that you are giving PPs to the Soviets, which they might be able to use later, to stop you. Even if you don't want to do that, there is always the option of building supply complexes...

[cpdeyoung]

1 April 1940

The RAF, RN submarines, and Royal Artillery did a great deal of damage at very low cost.

[cpdeyoung]

1 April 1940

Japanese Armor leads an incursion.

[Bombur]

With the Axis player more or less defeated, what will Stalin do in order to bring victory for USSR?

[Twotribes]

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I had wanted to get the Soviet player to join me in defeating the West but the victory conditions precluded that...after all both Germany and the Soviets were Socialists countries. Although not the same kind of Socialist countries.

There is some confusion about politics in the above. It is true that the Nationalist Socialist party began as a Socialist party, but their politics were twisted and distorted into first a popularist party, and later a fascist party (might is right). So the Nazi party was actually not a socialist party at all. I have heard this misunderstanding several times by in particular Americans, but want to put it to sleep now.

Secondly. The manual clearly states, do not wait until September 1939 until declaring war. I have made it this way for several reasons, one of them being that I don't want players to play some odd 20 turns, before going to war. That would be strange, and perhaps boring (I think so). Another reason is that I want a more "what-if" kind of scenario. That is players are able to do stuff that didn't happen in real life. Thus starting off in September 1939, seems wrong. I think especially the events governing the take-over of Czechoslovakia need to be modeled. Another reason why I am not going to change the starting date, in any way, is that it is more than just moving a few borders. There is the research governing how much China has lost, which is tough, but not impossible, but more to the point would be the OOB changes.

The victory conditions, which are public, are made on purpose so that the USSR can be flexible in its choice of friends and foes. A permanent alliance with anybody however is not something that is possible. All to often in version 2, it was found that the Soviet player and the Axis player chose to become best buddies permanently. Something that feels, to me, completely wrong, and certainly does not mimic the second world war.

All in all, I feel that I made an excellent attempt at making what I wanted. I also think that the game can be very fun, if played optimally, and not with an eye on history for when to do things. I like that each game can be wildly different, and I think that is the charm of the game.

The problem is Germany is NOT ready before she has chech and Austria. The British and French OUT PRODUCE the Germans. Further allowing the Soviets to take Romania further weakens the Germans, Germany has to be the agressor and your model takes that away from them.

[Bombur]

Well, currently I´m playing against chuck and ernie (I´m western allies, chuck is Axis and ernie is USSR) and I beg to disagree with you. A skilled German player has real chances to win the game, particularly if the allied player is.....well.....not so skilled.
As for USSR, the game was designed for them to play like an early agressor, but being too aggressive in the early game can actually ruin their chances to win in the long time. For the Soviets to win, they must do everything that can to keep a certain balance between axis and allies. This means helping China, but no too much, cooperating with the Germans to some extent, and taking what they can without upsetting the allied player too much.

[cpdeyoung]

Larry is not done for in this game. I look across the border at panzer divisions filled with Pz-IIIJ, a very good tank. These have not yet been unleashed.

Of course the British and French can outproduce a Germany which was unsuccessful in the early diplomacy and battles. Outproducing the British Empire is tough, incredibly tough. The Germans planned to win on the battlefield, not necessarily in the factories.

In the game Bombur mentions above the Germans had one of the great campaigns. So many times I thought I could not prevail. I was up against one of the best Soviet players I have ever seen. My success, such as it is, is due to all that Claus has taught me in the game. I am a very different player than when I started, and all because he showed me the way. I learned to fear when he sent me the turn, and mentioned on Slack that "There is a lesson in this turn". I knew it would be a painful lesson! It is hardly necessary to mention that Claus knows this game, and ATG, inside and out. He would have whipped me with ease if I had not been able to hold well in the West. If I remember correctly I was attacking the Benelux countries on the third or fourth turn, and I had completed my conquest of west and central Europe by December 1939 when I started the Russian Campaign. What an experience that has been. I imagine Claus could play any coalition, but I know he is a magnificent Soviet player.

I do not want anyone to think that Bombur was not a challenge. At the point we are at in the game his Allies are making transport nearly impossible in wester Europe. His RAF has driven the Luftwaffe from the theater. His RN and USN have forced the U-boats back up the Channel.

This was one of the last betas, and I was lucky enough to get to play the authors of the game. Wow.

[cpdeyoung]

29 April 1940

[cpdeyoung]

29 April 1940

The Communists on the offensive!

[cpdeyoung]

29 April 1940

Not just the Communists.

[cpdeyoung]

29 April 1940

The United States of America is now at war with all three members of the Axis. Here is the butcher's bill for these offensives.

[LJBurstyn]

The first game has ended. The Axis have surrendered. The game declared the Allies the winners. And I agree with it's decision. I have decided that I will not be playing in other V3 games. For reasons stated in my earlier messages. I will finish the games I am already in but will not be joining any new games.

[ernieschwitz]

I have decided that I will not be playing in other V3 games. For reasons stated in my earlier messages.

So, please correct me if I am wrong, you are not going to play, because you chose a bad strategy, and it backfired, just like the manual said it would?

[Twotribes]

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I have decided that I will not be playing in other V3 games. For reasons stated in my earlier messages.

So, please correct me if I am wrong, you are not going to play, because you chose a bad strategy, and it backfired, just like the manual said it would?

For the slow, when the game favors attacking by the Soviets in 38 39 time line when the allies out produce the Germans and when there is no way Germany can get Austria Czechoslovakia, Romania and Hungary in the fold before war it is not a good game.

[ernieschwitz]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I have decided that I will not be playing in other V3 games. For reasons stated in my earlier messages.

So, please correct me if I am wrong, you are not going to play, because you chose a bad strategy, and it backfired, just like the manual said it would?

For the slow, when the game favors attacking by the Soviets in 38 39 time line when the allies out produce the Germans and when there is no way Germany can get Austria Czechoslovakia, Romania and Hungary in the fold before war it is not a good game.

Thanks for hinting at me being slow. Really makes me want to look at things in a positive light. Also the game you are hinting at, is yet to be determined. It may be a good strategy, it may not. If it is not, then I guess someone should eat crow (but probably won't). I'll chalk this up to be another time that I have failed you Twotribes. One would think I'd want to give up by now, trying to please you .