FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before

[devoncop]

Soviet Turn 45

After deciding on the sensible strategy of waiting for the shock advantage of the Soviet Winter to kick in before trying to punch through strong German lines I completely ignored this and made several attempts to do so. These met largely with predictable failure at high cost. Memo to self.....listen to your own advice

Two regiments from the broken up Finnish 1st Division were destroyed in southern Finland and there were a couple of small breakthroughs in the South but otherwise it was a quiet turn and more representative reinforcements were fed into the Kiev salient which is coming under some pressure.

A destroyed was sunk off Leningrad but the Kriegsmarine remains a nuisance bombarding Soviet lines in southern Finland. In better news troops on the River Narva have pushed West across the River to try and pressurised AGN.

[devoncop]

Soviet Turn 46......26th November 1941

A quiet turn from the Germans means I can rest my aircraft and concentrate on a couple of targeted advances.

A push by Soviet armour breaks through units of 9th Army south of Smolensk and the advance heads towards Orsha behind the main German line.

Another breakthrough across the Narva river destroys a full strength German infantry as Shock Army troops support armour and push west an attempt to cut off German forces facing the Soviet lines closer to the Baltic coast.

In the far north the offensive against the Finns is reinforced and almost the entire 1st Finnish Division is cut off from supply or destroyed.

I then end the turn to rest forces whilst awaiting the winter.........

[larryfulkerson]

Ian and I are fighting in the open flat terrain west of the river that passes through Kiev and I'm losing. I'm going to have to back up my units pretty quickly now or Ian will make a hole I can't fix and roll up my lines. I'm counterattacking in certain spots, those spots I think I can win, and I'm pulling back in other spots. I'm repairing the rails to the west of this image to prepare for occupancy. I'm afraid to rail divisions down here because of the shape the rest of the front lines are in. There's many weak spots and places under great stress with no reserve handy. I'm outnumbered and the units are almost equal in strength now that they have had time to rest and refit. My units rested during the mud season until they were leaf green and stuffed with equipment and now just a couple of turns after the mud season, they are turning yellow and some of them are down to half strength already and it's only going to get worse. And Ian is pushing all up and down the lines. He's broken a hole up north and I'm having to back my units up and build a new MLR. I'm trying to hold onto the middle but the pressure is great to push my units backward. The Soviets have almost 4 times as much AS as I have and the air war is intense. Several of my Axis fighter squadrons have evaporated. Soviet planes are falling out of the sky. A lot of the places that Ian is pushing have tanks as their spearhead. I'm rushing my Panzer formations to the breakthroughs but they aren't there yet. It's so exciting I can't wait for the turn to come back.

[devoncop]

Soviet Turn 47.30th November 1941

As the softening up of German lines with concentrated artillery fire continues in preparation for the Winter, Soviet supply increases by 10 to add a nice boost to replacements.

In the Narva area the breakout is expanded and 2nd Shock Army has re-occupied Kohtla-Jarve 40 Km west of Narva and the German SS Politzei Division and 4th Geb Div still facing the defenders of the city are almost cut off.

Down in the far south attacks on 3rd Romanian Army and 94th German Division in the lines on the eastern isthmus from Sevastapol Crimea are successful and the 3rd Crimean Motorised Div is only 40 Km from the rear of German lines at Melitopol...

More advances also take place in southern Finland though Finnish reinforcements can be seen arriving...

[larryfulkerson]

New moves from Ian; Here's what it has developed into so far. I've started counterattacking and I was actually able to push some of the Soviet units backward. I'm planning on pulling everybody back to the west to the next river but I'm afraid to actually start moving the units that way. I'm not real good at the pullback maneuvour. Partisans are still a problem and they manage to cut my rails and drop my bridges and I've learned to garrison some spare units throughout the territory so I can respond faster and cut down on the damage done. A lot of my fighters are in reorg this turn so I'm wondering if I should ground the bombers for this turn or not. I'm pulling the engineers out of the front line replacing them with a leg infantry unit because I'm going to use the engineers to garrison some of the outlaying cities. I'm sort of waiting for the Soviet Winter Offensive because I'll be forced to back up then anyway, probably. My units are losing their strength slowly because of the fighting that's going on. I'm going to have to start rotating them to get the stronger fresher units at the front. I'm repairing the rails in the area that I anticipate that I'm going to occupy sometime in the future. Maybe if I back up the units starting at one of the ends. The retreat path is larger for the northern units because of the layout of the natural terrain. I'd have to pull them back to Pskov to find defensible terrain.

[devoncop]

Soviet Turn 48...3rd December 1941

The Germans reduce the western perimeter of a couple of the probes across the lower Dnepr and try and extricate the 4th Geb Division from the Narva line, leaving the SS Polizei Division to its fate.

Soviet Armour and 2nd Shock Army manage to punch through to the Baltic cutting off the SS and isolating several Infantry Regiments as the advance continues. A new German line is now encountered 100 km to the west.

As the snows are yet to arrive I decide to launch concentrated attacks early in any case in the central sector for the first time. North and South of Smolensk the German line is broken through in an attempt to isolate and surround the city.

The same situation is also developing at Gomel with 16th Mechanized Corps only 30Km from the city and at Cherginov where 3 Guards Armies are at the gates.

Further South the drive from the Sevastopol peninsular continues towards the Melitopol lines and more Soviet formations advance from the Crimea to help...

Finally, the advance in southern Finland has now encircled elements of the 19th Finnish Division as further paratroop drops cut off its retreat...

[gliz2]

Guys are you basing your planning on the known "unknowns"? I mean going for the X or waiting for X cause the pre-set events sounds lika kind of cheating to me.
I know you have already played this but I cannot remember ever lurking into the manual or expected reinforcements to see what's coming. This is an exploit of sorts isn't it?

[devoncop]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Guys are you basing your planning on the known "unknowns"? I mean going for the X or waiting for X cause the pre-set events sounds lika kind of cheating to me.
I know you have already played this but I cannot remember ever lurking into the manual or expected reinforcements to see what's coming. This is an exploit of sorts isn't it?

Hi Gliz

You raise an interesting point.

My view is that it was not a secret to anyone in 1941 that the Soviet Winter would severely impact the German advance which is realistically modelled and known by both players. Planning for that was possible in 1941 (although the Germans failed to do so properly re cold weather clothing) so it seems perfectly reasonable for Larry and I to take that into account.

As far as planned reinforcements are concerned I don't check personally to see where my replacements are arriving but do see what is likely to arrive on the next turn. This again I believe is reasonable. Soviet commanders were well aware of the Siberian reinforcements on their way to help them and also of the mass conscription undertaken.

What I do not do is to go into files to see what German reinforcements/replacements are due. Firstly it would be totally unrealistic for me to have that knowlege and secondly I am a technical ignoramus and haven't looked at game files in all my years of gaming (unless it is on Steam workshop I am unable to work out how to install Mods for example !!)

Hope that explains my view.

Larry may have a different perspective though.

Thanks for the input

Ian

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: gliz2
Guys are you basing your planning on the known "unknowns"? I mean going for the X or waiting for X cause the pre-set events sounds lika kind of cheating to me.
I know you have already played this but I cannot remember ever lurking into the manual or expected reinforcements to see what's coming. This is an exploit of sorts isn't it?

I've been known to look up data using a sandbox copy of turn 1 from the enemy side. One time I was going to invade at Singapore and I needed to know the range of the CD guns there so I could stand off and bombard them. I looked up the range from the turn one enemy's side of the game. Because this is the kind of information that would be known or would be easy to find out. Recon could take a picture of the position and the picture could be blown up and the model of gun(s) there could be looked up in the database of known enemy gun models and thus the range could be figured out. But those things that the commander wouldn't know I don't look up. I try to do what is realistic. I know it's just a game but I like my games realistic. Ian and I are having a blast.

[larryfulkerson]

Ian has forced his way through my lines just north of Kiev and I'm going to have to evacuate all my units to the west side of the river and set up another defensive position. The problem is that Ian will just force his way over that river too. This could be a problem. I might ought to rail some more people to this area.

[larryfulkerson]

New moves from Ian and I'm taking a look around the map and I've found this horrid situation. Ian has forced his way through my lines and is making a huge hole and has units moving through it. I don't have much in the way of a reserve in this area: just one Panzer division and I'm not sure that's enough to contain this one.

[larryfulkerson]

This is Kiev looking south and you can see that there's hard fighting going on as the Germans struggle to contain the intruders. There's still a lot of weak spots and Ian will find them I'm sure. I'm going to have to move some of these troops northward to help out with the breakouts further north. I hope to be able to stem the flow for about another turn but my boys are slowly being pushed backward and the frong line is slowly moving to the west side of the river. This area was weakened slightly when I moved some of the artillery north to Smolensk. I'm trying not to use the engineers in the front lines because I'll need them to help my troops leap rivers to the west.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the Crimea so far. I need to ship some more people down there pretty quickly because the Soviets are making the way through the bottlneck and the threat is that they will outflank my lines and surround everybody who can't escape to the north. The troops along the river will have to evacuate and leave a huge gap in the lines. I'm not at all sure I can reposition all those troops without losing a lot of them. I've got the zones of control disengagements turned on and the German units have a habit of getting stuck next to a Soviet unit when it tries to back out of the hex.

[devoncop]

Soviet Turn 49....7th December 1941

After the exertions of the last turn the Soviets restrict this one to consolidating some of the advances and the SS Polizei Division is wiped out in totality just west of Narva and the Northern Front is now facing the new German line to the west north of a large lake. If this can be forced then the Baltic States could be opened up to liberation....

In the south the Romanian 4th Army continues to be hit hard and after isolating and destroying a German Regiment the advance from the Sevastapol peninsular continues and it is hoped to force a German pullback from the Melitopol lines.

Way in the north of Finland two German Divisions are now cut off south of Murmansk and in the South of the country a Finnish counter attack has managed to restore supply to some of the isolated border units but more Soviet troops are arriving in the area to hopefully clear the pockets of Finns still contained.

Finally, in the centre more advances occur in the drive towards Orsha in the centre as Soviet armour cripples two German Divisions before resting but as yet there is little sign of any concentrated German pull back.

Although the German air shock advantage finally went this turn most Soviet planes are rested. The Winter Offensive has yet to begin.

[gliz2]

Dear both,
Thanks for explanation. Now I understand, I must have confused your thread with somebody's else. What you do is perfectly normal.

Just one last question: do you play in a free format or with restrains? By free format I mean both side behave at free will (so Russians are allowed not to be obliged to counterattack). I play with in restrained mode which for '41 means that Soviets cannot blow bridges unless in contact with enemy and that they have to actively defend (meaning they cannot just dig in and need to counterattack). For 44-45 it means the Germans are obliged to rugged defence.

[devoncop]

Hi Gliz2

No. We play unrestrained apart from the scenario briefing house rules.

The way you play is understandable but would be more like a reproduction of the war than I would like. Though superficially realistic you raise more problems. Why are the Germans not forbidden from retreating in line with Hitler's orders ?
Are the Germans forced to push large numbers of units into the Caucausus ?
We all have to balance how much we want to be constrained from trying our own strategies I guess.

As Larry says, we are both having a great time with this scenario so it works for us.

[gliz2]

Devoncop
You misunderstood. Limited restrain applied. So in '41 Soviets cannot just simply retreat but must be a bit active (same for Germans in 44-45). An example of this approach is is having stack of 80 points on a bridge and enemy on the otherside. Historically (I mean in general not just on Eastern Front) you would attack the enemy holding the other side of bridge. While in boardgames you might be tempted to blow up the bridge immediately and just dig in. The restrain here being you need to try to fight. As I play against myself it's quite easy and I got it working perfectly fine. Soviets hold the defences but also counterattack just like normally any defenders in IIWW would do, so not like during the Napoleon's invasion. And yes in 44-45 Germans cannot withdraw in bulk but can establish defence lines behind the limited first line.

I apologize for this OT but I simply love FITE and already wasted like 400hrs on it and cannot stop

[devoncop]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Devoncop
You misunderstood. Limited restrain applied. So in '41 Soviets cannot just simply retreat but must be a bit active (same for Germans in 44-45). An example of this approach is is having stack of 80 points on a bridge and enemy on the otherside. Historically (I mean in general not just on Eastern Front) you would attack the enemy holding the other side of bridge. While in boardgames you might be tempted to blow up the bridge immediately and just dig in. The restrain here being you need to try to fight. As I play against myself it's quite easy and I got it working perfectly fine. Soviets hold the defences but also counterattack just like normally any defenders in IIWW would do, so not like during the Napoleon's invasion. And yes in 44-45 Germans cannot withdraw in bulk but can establish defence lines behind the limited first line.

I apologize for this OT but I simply love FITE and already wasted like 400hrs on it and cannot stop

We certainly agree on how epic the scenario is ! There are often ongoing mini dramas the whole length of the front like the rate of Odessa or individual defence lines which really add to the drama.

If you are playing solo your approach makes much more sense and I am glad it works for you.

Thanks again for your input 👍

[larryfulkerson]

The Soviets are pushing slowly through my units in the north and I'm going to need a lot more people to contain the Soviets when they push through the bottleneck and enter the terrain beyond. I'm thinking of retreating all the way to the base of the peninsula because that will make the Soviet supply situation untenable. I'm probably going to have to round up all the spare units, MP's, Engineers, Security units, etc. and rail them up to the north to take up positions on the front line.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what it looks like around Smolensk and you can see how the Soviets are leaping over the river neaded north and I've almost contained them. The Soviet units are strong and are pushing the Axis units backward slowly and I may have to evacuate the units north of here because of the threat of being outflanked and cut off. A lot of my aircraft are in reorg and in particular there's an Axis fighter unit within range of Soviet artillery that's getting gutted from bombardment. I've lost about a dozen planes so far. Ian has driven his Black Sea fleet into the ports at Odessa adding their guns to the defense. So I need to reposition my Stuka's down south and do some port attacks. I hesitate to do land attacks while the ships are there because of the horrendous losses that would result. I expect to lose a lot of Stuka's getting rid of those ships. I'll need to fly some additional fighters down south to escort the Stukas.