Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J)

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

This is 8x30 factories for the Ha-45. It will complete in July 42. At that point 2 become operational and the remaining 6 convert to the Ha-43.

Those two Ha-45 plants are going to have to be large as there's quite a demand for it. Just Frank's alone should take at least 10/day. Edit. Not to mention if you go for the 12 Georges/day. The first two models use this engine.

Other operational factories will convert as well. The entire burden won't be on just those two factories. I suspect I'll have at least 4, possibly more, allocated to the Ha-45.

In my other game, I have 6 totaling 660 with the Ha-34 converted to a 7th Ha-45 factory, currently at 21(339). There are 1548 in the pool, increasing about 8 a day. I am not concerned about Ha-45 engines.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Wait there's more....[:D]

Ha-43: 10(0) - keep and increase to 30

Here's the thing about this engine. You only need it for two planes, if you want them. The first is the original Jill. Now I've built enough to equip three heavy CV's and one baby. Just got the Jill-II starting, which uses the Ha-32(?). The other is the KI-94. A nasty looking brute. Thing is its a late starter. I figure early '45 in my game. So that means for a time there'll be no engine draw. As a result I only produce 90/month. At the end of APR '43 I'll have 299 in the pool. It'll rise over the 500 mark in a little over two more months and I'll see what happens when the bonus starts to draw.

Have we confused you enough yet. So many different opinions and possibilities.[8|]

I'm well aware of the Ha-44 and the B6N1 and Ki-94. For me, it's a decision between that engine and the NE Turbojet. I could go either way, but not both. I do like the Ki-94, but the speed of the Kikka and Ki-201 is intriguing. I won't bother with the B6N1. I skip it in favor of the B6N2. I'm attempting to get the Ki-201 in my other game. The Ki-201 factories are advancing nicely (20,15,15,12,9,4 repaired) but the engine won't be available until Feb 45. [8|]

[RangerJoe]

I am playing scenario 2 with, I think (its been awhile) a database change. I probably should do a fresh install but I am too lazy . . . [>:]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Ha-34 for example. I've shut that factory down

I intend to keep a few for the Tojo. I like the idea of having an OK SR 1 plane available for a long time. However that may change with more late war experience.

I love the Tojo! But, by the end of 43, the IIc has seen its heyday. I have about 200 in the pool in my other game (late Dec 43) and have about 4-5 sentai using the Tojo. They still do well, but against modern Allied fighters they sometimes struggle. They are now primarily a defensive CAP plane. That will minimize pilot losses. My IJAAF is VERY experienced, so that may be a factor in why they're still doing so well.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What I did for my game was to put the planes and engines on a spreadsheet. The upgrades in the next column with the engine at the end. If the plane upgrade used a different engine, then it was at the end of the row for planes then it was on its own row.. Then I sorted by engine. For me, while the Ki-61 Tonies used the Kawasaki Ha-60 engine, the Ki-100 Tonies use the Mitsubishi Ha-33 Engine, so do the Judy 2 and 3. The Jack uses the same engine as the Emily. The entire Tojo line uses the Nakajima Ha-35.

So I am going for the Ki-100 Tony but I am going through the line from the Ki-61a with most of the factories with only on on the Ki-100 Tony. This is so I can see the difference in time to complete the factories and start the research since this is a learning game for me.. I know that there will be die rolls involved, just like every game since PacWar by Gary Grigsby. So whatever game/scenario is played with whatever database is used, a suggestion is to do what I did for the planes and engines. If you already have the experience, you could probably cull the list to the planes that you want. That way you can see the final plane and engine. Maybe you already do that or know enough that you don't have to but that is best for me. Of course, I was not a logistical specialist but a line trooper [:D] so I need things like this put to me in such a simple way.

I am learning a lot from your discussion and I must say, the Allied side is so much easier but its boring - at least against the computer.

I have my own spreadsheet that has a tab for airframes and another for engines. As I update them, it'll tell me what my engine needs are (surplus or shortage). I can easily add to the airframes to calculate late war goals and see how this affects my engine production.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So I am going for the Ki-100 Tony but I am going through the line from the Ki-61a with most of the factories with only on on the Ki-100 Tony.

You'll find by now most of us agree this plane is a waste. If you produce the Tojo, there're essentially the same, so don't waste your R&D on a one engine (the Ki-61's) aircraft.

I accelerated the Ki-100-II in my other game and am disappointed. It's not living up to its hype. [8|] I'm not bothering with any version of the Tony this game. No Jack either. I loved the Jack in WitP. Don't like it here.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I am playing scenario 2 with, I think (its been awhile) a database change. I probably should do a fresh install but I am too lazy . . . [>:]

Scenario 1 - Tojo uses the Ha-34.
Scenario 2 - Tojo uses the Ha-35.

[rustysi]

I'm well aware of the Ha-44 and the B6N1 and Ki-94. For me, it's a decision between that engine and the NE Turbojet. I could go either way, but not both.

Absolutely, its a matter of preference. We can't get all of it. Its what each of us wants to play with that influences these choices. As for me I think I already over-reach, and the jets/rockets would simply be impossible.

[rustysi]

No Jack either.

Considering this for future games as well. Just don't really see the need. I only put two R&D sites into it, but even that is probably too much or too little, depending how you look at it. The first version has no more firepower than the Zero, and with such a paltry R&D by the time I get to version two... Why?

[rustysi]

Bottom line is that R&D must be streamlined such that we get what we need/want, and the two are not exclusive. What one player needs/wants is not right or wrong, as long as they design their process to get to their individual goals.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: rustysi

This is 8x30 factories for the Ha-45. It will complete in July 42. At that point 2 become operational and the remaining 6 convert to the Ha-43.

Those two Ha-45 plants are going to have to be large as there's quite a demand for it. Just Frank's alone should take at least 10/day. Edit. Not to mention if you go for the 12 Georges/day. The first two models use this engine.

Other operational factories will convert as well. The entire burden won't be on just those two factories. I suspect I'll have at least 4, possibly more, allocated to the Ha-45.

In my other game, I have 6 totaling 660 with the Ha-34 converted to a 7th Ha-45 factory, currently at 21(339). There are 1548 in the pool, increasing about 8 a day. I am not concerned about Ha-45 engines.

Got it thanks. I kinda realized it after I posted and read your other posts.

[rustysi]

I accelerated the Ki-100-II in my other game and am disappointed. It's not living up to its hype.

I've got a book around that's says this plane IRL was a 400+ mph aircraft. That being so would make it impressive. It is possible the book is wrong, I have found some other errors in the thing.[;)]

[rustysi]

I am playing scenario 2 with, I think (its been awhile) a database change. I probably should do a fresh install but I am too lazy . . .

Its designed that way. Why? That's a dev decision. I doubt there's anything wrong with your install.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Don't forget a night fighter. You will "need" one earlier than historical.

Yeah, that'll be on the acceleration list. Not sure which one, but my current thought is speed above all else. I don't expect them to shoot many planes down but they have no chance if they can't keep up.

I'm no longer a fan of accelerating NF's. The issue is so few groups and then so few planes in those groups. Don't miss understand. I build the best one. I'd rather have some really good fighters early.

As you note, you can't get everything early.

If you are going N1K and A7M for IJN and Ki-84 and Ki-83 for IJA, i would go 12x30 N1K, 12x30 A7M, 18x30 Ki-84 and 12x30 Ki83. Minimum. that's 54 taken. Then 6 - 9 on A6M. It's your best fighter through '42. The rest pretty much as they arrive. They all have trade-offs.

You should see:
N1K in early '43. If you are lucky Feb/Mar. Yes the statistics say Apr (50%), BUT this is a one sided curve AND a high deviation (meaning broad, not sharp). It comes in Sept 100%. It's like a 20% chance to have it in Jan IIRC with 12. People forget that, they only remember the 50% mark … plus remember the second benefit: you have 360 production right away. 12 planes/day. 3 days to fill a 36 plane group. You get 2 groups converted to N1K every week.

A7M - Late 44. 12/44, close to that.
Ki-84 - 8/43 - 9/43. Something like that. Just after you get the Tojo-c. So you are going to fly the Tojo-a a long time.
ki-83 - somewhere just at the beginning of 45 … 1/45 or so. This will give you a 430 mph AC when the allies are also flying them. 9/45 when they start flying +460 mph aircraft you'll still be competitive.

n = 1, but I got the Ki-83 in late 1944 with just 2 factories started on it. I eventually moved 2 more, after the Frank-r was done researching. Also got the A7M in mid-44.

The Tojo-c can be had in early 1943. You just can't (and shouldn't IMO) invest in the Oscar.

9 factories on the Zero (unless you're talking total production and R&D) is too many to me.

I still think you should accelerate at least one NF. Without doing so, you'll be stuck with the Irving only in 1943 when you first start to need NFs. You need a NF to more reliably interrupt night bombing attacks without suffering egregious losses ("day" fighters seem to get shot down at a much higher rate, I'm experiencing about a x5 or higher, part of which is the difference in durability I'm sure). So that, to me, says you need to accelerate an army NF. Even if it's just one factory - it will accelerate by several months and that can make a huge difference because it will arrive at an extended period of high leverage.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo



I'm no longer a fan of accelerating NF's. The issue is so few groups and then so few planes in those groups. Don't miss understand. I build the best one. I'd rather have some really good fighters early.

As you note, you can't get everything early.


If you are going N1K and A7M for IJN and Ki-84 and Ki-83 for IJA, i would go 12x30 N1K, 12x30 A7M, 18x30 Ki-84 and 12x30 Ki83. Minimum. that's 54 taken. Then 6 - 9 on A6M. It's your best fighter through '42.



You should see:
N1K in early '43. If you are lucky Feb/Mar. Yes the statistics say Apr (50%), BUT this is a one sided curve AND a high deviation (meaning broad, not sharp). It comes in Sept 100%. It's like a 20% chance to have it in Jan IIRC with 12. People forget that, they only remember the 50% mark … plus remember the second benefit: you have 360 production right away. 12 planes/day. 3 days to fill a 36 plane group. You get 2 groups converted to N1K every week.

A7M - Late 44. 12/44, close to that.
Ki-84 - 8/43 - 9/43. Something like that. Just after you get the Tojo-c. So you are going to fly the Tojo-a a long time.
ki-83 - somewhere just at the beginning of 45 … 1/45 or so. This will give you a 430 mph AC when the allies are also flying them. 9/45 when they start flying +460 mph aircraft you'll still be competitive.

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many. I only used like 4/5 x 30 and got it in early 45. If you do 8 x 30 you'll have it in 44 for sure.

You have to think about what you're making in the end too. I don't think you can plan for making 12 x 30 (or 360/month of Ki-83). That's also a massive investment in engines, with 720/month of Ha-43 just for this plane!! [X(] The N1K5 and the A7M also use the Ha-43, so you're basically going to screw yourself making that many of these engines. I'm only making 850/month for all of them right now.

I'm WAY behind you in this thinking, mainly because I have absolutely no experience playing the Japanese in 44 (almost there!) let alone 45. Obvert, I understand your issue with the engines. But, you're going to make X number of planes late war a month. What difference does it make what type of engines you use? They all cost the same and you'll be spending the same number of HI regardless.

If not for strategic opsec, I'd disclose what I've got for factories in my late war Japan game - which underpins my objections to Pax's opinions. There are still some historical posts in that AAR that have some info, however, and I may have posted some in somebody else's AAR or main forum thread as the images were about a year old.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So I am going for the Ki-100 Tony but I am going through the line from the Ki-61a with most of the factories with only on on the Ki-100 Tony.

You'll find by now most of us agree this plane is a waste. If you produce the Tojo, there're essentially the same, so don't waste your R&D on a one engine (the Ki-61's) aircraft.

The Ki-100-II is fine as a late war service one interceptor/bomber killer. If always used with a lot of Franks and Goerges it performs alright. I use it at 7k usually for CAP. It's definitely better than the Tojo IIc just for the CL cannons. Still using the Tojo in May 45 though, so it's not without merit in some situations late.

It's all about choices and experience though. Now that I have the N1K5 I don't like the J2M5 as much. I liked it a lot before. [;)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

... I got the Ki-83 in late 1944 with just 2 factories started on it. I eventually moved 2 more, after the Frank-r was done researching. Also got the A7M in mid-44.

Yes, it certainly can be done. I preferred to under-state the possible date.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

9 factories on the Zero (unless you're talking total production and R&D) is too many to me.

Correct. Total factories. RnD / prod split TBD.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert
….

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many. I only used like 4/5 x 30 and got it in early 45. If you do 8 x 30 you'll have it in 44 for sure.

You have to think about what you're making in the end too. I don't think you can plan for making 12 x 30 (or 360/month of Ki-83). That's also a massive investment in engines, with 720/month of Ha-43 just for this plane!! [X(] The N1K5 and the A7M also use the Ha-43, so you're basically going to screw yourself making that many of these engines. I'm only making 850/month for all of them right now.

Eric,

I tend to not build as many early and mid-model planes as most. And I tend to save my supply/Hi to build final models in very high qty, all based upon my analytic view point that the IJ has finite quantity of both and what do I want to build with it. So I make a lot of inconvenience for myself within the game in '42 … I run razor thin pools until the first of my RnD projects bear fruit.

In the above scenario, '42 is going to be A6M and Nates until Tojo arrives in Sept. Yeah, I suffer with Nates because the early Oscar other than range is just not a lot better than Nate. Nate is CAP, A6M escort/sweep. Tojo replaces Nate in CAP role. '42 fighter build rate is ~ 10/day. N1K replace A6M is escort/sweep role. N1K is first model to build in high volume, but still not that high ~400/month. Ki-84 comes and that is high volume and can work all roles as can N1K. . It is also will run at ~400/month. So, end of '43 I am building ~25 fighters/day.
A7M improves things significantly as does Ki-83. End of '44 I plan to build at least 40 fighters/day. And yes, this is where the Ki-83 being twin engine can hit a speed bump in my planning and I go with the Ki-94 instead. The supply cost on the engines and the HI burn on the aircraft, the Ki94 can start to look pretty good even with those lousy cannons on it (4xHo-5 20mm would be so good!!! Ditto the J7W ...)

Anyway, so I give up a lot of comfort in 42/43 to allow myself luxury in 44/45. A conscious trade-off.

PS: thank you for confirming (along with Loka) that my arrival dates are in fact conservative estimates. I did a game with 18x30 on A7M a couple of times … the arrival date is opsec but it was a total game changer.

PPS: And for those who cry 'fantasy', they should remember that the A7M first test flight was 9/42 IIRC. The model was actually ready to fly 3/42 but the engines delays were the issue; specifically the 2 stage induction. If not for NIH, they could/should have had that up and running late '42 at latest, but …. a lot of allied lives were saved because they did not.

[FlyByKnight]

I'll definitely pay attention to this. I saw parts of your other AAR and it was highly entertaining. Good luck.