Campaign. tyronec (Axis) vs K62

[tyronec]

I conceded the game at this point.

Overall progress is OK and the Soviets have been taking heavy losses for their aggressive defense. I think the game is close apart from in the South.

The Odessa situation is a disaster. Axis have three possibilities from here:
1. Continue to assault Odessa without attaining Isolation; I am confident this will fail baring an exceptionally lucky combat result. In this game you cannot take a well garrisoned city fort without isolating it first.
2. Continue to attempt Isolation while leaving enough infantry behind to assault when the Isolation happens. I don't think this is going to happen, the Soviets have enough LBs to keep the Interdiction up until the weather turns. Maybe not enough for both Tallinn and Odessa but am pretty sure they have enough for one of them.
3. Leave a few units to screen Odessa and push on. This is probably the best option but really prospects are not good. It would be difficult to advance into the Crimea with the supply blockage at Odessa and I don't know if Axis could even get enough supplies forwards to attempt to Isolate Sevastapol. If PG4 shifts to join PG3 then the rail line to Stalino is going to be over burdened, they are probably better use with AGC. Axis need the supplies along the rail line to Nikolaev and to the ports, at least on the strategy that I adopted.

I could have asked my opponent to have a new house rule on his counter interdiction, but there is no bug here he is simply playing to the way the game is designed. I used small mission sorties on T1.
Playing out the game with a permanent Soviet garrison behind the front line just has no appeal. Well played to K62.

[Stamb]

It is not enough to isolate 1 hex to the right from Odessa and setup AS there? In my game vs human I am able to isolate 1 port hex in Leningrad area to keep Leningrad isolated by using naval interdiction and AS.

There is a bloodbath in the air, but last turn Soviets lost around 1k planes if I recall correctly. Also heavy losses on the Axis side but It will wipe entire VSS if this continues.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: tyronec
The Axis Interdiction went fine. The AS failed, it intercepted some of the 90 x 6 bomber Soviet sorties but 80+% of the Soviet bombers are getting through. So Odessa no longer isolated.

I am not sure I like this game feature. In this case the soviet ability to interdict (in real life) would not affect the Axis ability to interdict Odessa. Odessa should still be isolated as the Luftwaffe is preventing or takings its tole on shipping. Only if the interdiction would come from Axis shipping it should have an effect...

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

I conceded the game at this point.

Overall progress is OK and the Soviets have been taking heavy losses for their aggressive defense. I think the game is close apart from in the South.

The Odessa situation is a disaster. Axis have three possibilities from here:
1. Continue to assault Odessa without attaining Isolation; I am confident this will fail baring an exceptionally lucky combat result. In this game you cannot take a well garrisoned city fort without isolating it first.
2. Continue to attempt Isolation while leaving enough infantry behind to assault when the Isolation happens. I don't think this is going to happen, the Soviets have enough LBs to keep the Interdiction up until the weather turns. Maybe not enough for both Tallinn and Odessa but am pretty sure they have enough for one of them.
3. Leave a few units to screen Odessa and push on. This is probably the best option but really prospects are not good. It would be difficult to advance into the Crimea with the supply blockage at Odessa and I don't know if Axis could even get enough supplies forwards to attempt to Isolate Sevastapol. If PG4 shifts to join PG3 then the rail line to Stalino is going to be over burdened, they are probably better use with AGC. Axis need the supplies along the rail line to Nikolaev and to the ports, at least on the strategy that I adopted.

So historically the Rumanians and 11th Army never took Odessa. The Soviets gave it up to protect Sevastopol. You could either attempt to isolate it and assault it, assault it directly with a reinforced German Corps and attrit the garrison to death or push on towards the Crimea and push away the VVS....

[Beethoven1]

[8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|]

How absurd.

ORIGINAL: tyronec

The Odessa situation is a disaster.

It's almost as though it's historical for Odessa to hold out at least a bit, and if the game is supposed to be roughly historical, then it is almost as if that is what one would think should happen much more often (whereas in no other AAR I have seen has Germany been unable to take Odessa several months before it fell historically).

It would be difficult to advance into the Crimea with the supply blockage at Odessa.

It's almost as though historically, the Axis did not particularly advance into Crimea right away and didn't take Sevastopol until 1942.

In your defense though, you are unlucky that Odessa and Tallinn are city terrain rather than urban. If they were urban terrain, then you would take both easily.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

ORIGINAL: tyronec
The Axis Interdiction went fine. The AS failed, it intercepted some of the 90 x 6 bomber Soviet sorties but 80+% of the Soviet bombers are getting through. So Odessa no longer isolated.

I am not sure I like this game feature. In this case the soviet ability to interdict (in real life) would not affect the Axis ability to interdict Odessa.

+1. The way that naval interdiction works is pretty illogical in this respect. This is even more the case for Lake Ladoga. The thing that should counter enemy interdiction are your fighters, not your bombers. You do not shoot down enemy bombers and stop them from bombing your ships by bombing enemy ships or by bombing enemy bombers. In addition, usually only a single side will actually be using ships to try to get through supplies to their troops. In this case, the Axis has no need to ships supplies anywhere currently, so there should be no particular Axis ships off the coast of Odessa for the Soviets to bomb.

It may not be worth the programming time to change or redesign naval interdiction, given other priorities, but how it is doesn't make sense.

[Stamb]

I think you have to think about naval interdiction also as a counter naval interdiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minesweeping. Scroll down to "By aircraft" section.

P.S I am not an expert, just my 2 cents. Maybe it was not widely used.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1
It's almost as though it's historical for Odessa to hold out at least a bit, and if the game is supposed to be roughly historical, then it is almost as if that is what one would think should happen much more often (whereas in no other AAR I have seen has Germany been unable to take Odessa several months before it fell historically).

Agree. But on the other side Soviet side does not suffer such losses as they did historically. Not even close. Even when Axis is driven by a top players. 3 mil losses until a winter, if Soviet is not retreating?
For example my opponent is retreating, no reason not to do so, and I was able to inflict probably less then 2 mil until turn 12. Which is basically the end of the '41 campaign (maybe 100k-200k will come when/if Leningrad falls)

[Stamb]

IMHO, VP allocations should be revisited as well as industry should really matter! So Soviets have a choice - trade divisions for an industry or trade industry for a divisions. Now they get both. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen in wite 2. But it would be my number 1 request. I would even pay for this DLC.


tyronec and K62 thanks for the AAR and sorry for off top

[tyronec]

It is not enough to isolate 1 hex to the right from Odessa and setup AS there? In my game vs human I am able to isolate 1 port hex in Leningrad area to keep Leningrad isolated by using naval interdiction and AS.

Axis Naval Interdiction is working fine and Odessa would be isolated without the effects of the VVS. It is their Naval Patrol that is cancelling the Axis one out.
Axis AS is operating out of Ochakov, it intercepted some missions from East of Ochakov to West of Ochavov and up to Odessa - but not enough. Some details on it in this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5128711

So historically the Rumanians and 11th Army never took Odessa. The Soviets gave it up to protect Sevastopol. You could either attempt to isolate it and assault it, assault it directly with a reinforced German Corps and attrit the garrison to death or push on towards the Crimea and push away the VVS....

True, historically Odessa held out against the Romanaians for a long time. I would argue that in the game, if it has a large garrison, it can hold out against massed German assault for as long as it is not isolated, which is against history. The garrison will not be attrited because the Soviets can bring in more troops AND they gain experience from every battle they win. Axis cannot push away the VVS until they take Sevastapol, which is not practicable without supplies and the normal source for those supplies is going to be the rail line to Nikolaev and naval supplies - both of which are problematic in this game.

[K62_]

I'd like to thank Tyrone for a very sharp and honorable game. The German land forces have been expertly led and, if I've been able to gain a small edge in the air war, it's only been through spending many hours each turn on micromanaging every aspect of the VVS. It's also been very difficult to get any play in the Axis backfield despite my devoting considerable forces to doing so.

I do like to hold on to major Soviet ports as historically these have been a bit tough to crack and the Luftwaffe was rarely able to completely prevent supply or evacuation. Also my sense of the historical period is that Stalin would have immediately executed any general who abandoned Odessa or Tallinn without a fight. It's hard to replicate all these aspects in any game, but WitE2 does a pretty good job and the best I've seen so far.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
...

The altitude settings seem to have some very significant limitations due to the fact that the air doctrine setting only applies the designated altitude to those planes sent on Escort during the actual combat air mission. For Patrol, the AI uses a series of pre-selected altitudes that the human player cannot manipulate. ...

altitude settings for auto-intercepts key off the relevant AS settings for that air command (Pavel mentioned this some time back), think this is how its described in the manual.

We had this in an earlier AAR post if I remember correctly. Sorry don't remember which one. But is 100% correct and here is the manual snippet

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: K62

I'd like to thank Tyrone for a very sharp and honorable game. The German land forces have been expertly led and, if I've been able to gain a small edge in the air war, it's only been through spending many hours each turn on micromanaging every aspect of the VVS. It's also been very difficult to get any play in the Axis backfield despite my devoting considerable forces to doing so.

I do like to hold on to major Soviet ports as historically these have been a bit tough to crack and the Luftwaffe was rarely able to completely prevent supply or evacuation. Also my sense of the historical period is that Stalin would have immediately executed any general who abandoned Odessa or Tallinn without a fight. It's hard to replicate all these aspects in any game, but WitE2 does a pretty good job and the best I've seen so far.

I concur with you on the ports. I believe the game models this very well with both sides fighting to keep port supply open. It is not easy and should not be. In this game I see the last picture in the South by Tyronec that 1st PZ went North. That gives testament to your defense there and believe in the future Soviet players will have a spinoff of your play in the South.

[M60A3TTS]

Good effort Tyrone. Even the best players can find a bump in the road now and then.

With regards to the air status, I don't think I did an adequate job explaining this, so one more go...

The optimal altitude for the MiG-3 is 25,593 feet. If I want my MiGs to escort my level bombers at this altitude in order to maximize their performance, I set an appropriate height for the GS directive. All the bombers will fly at this altitude. I can set the air superiority doctrine to the same altitude but it will not change things as it pertains to the MiGs. The AI will set some MiG flights to PATROL that fly at lower altitudes, regardless of my altitude settings. Only those that are on ESCORT fly at the correct altitude. Sometimes the AI will put all aircraft on PATROL. In that case, none of the MiGs fly at the desired altitude. I cannot control what the AI puts on PATROL (bad) and ESCORT (good) for my fighters which defeats the purpose of altitude settings either in whole or in part.

Another example.



I know the MiGs perform poorly at low altitude. I don't want my pilots to fly low on PATROL. The dictates of PATROL altitude ignores my planning.