GC41 Exalted tests the axis allies

[exalted]

Then some info on the status of the axis allies, some look a bit too good to be true like some Hungarian Armor that has Heavy Panzer Battalions attached but otherwise well. What can one say the Hungarians have done well around Rostov and the Italians have taken a lot of punishment and retreated.

The mobile forces of all nations are excellent simply for the mobility regardless of CV but Italian Infantry and often Hungarian is pretty much useless outside of heavy forts, regardless of what their CV say unless a German division is helping out.

Turn 98, Rumanian Forces.jpg (267.91 KiB) Viewed 1766 times

Turn 98, Hungarian & Slovak Forces.jpg (166.41 KiB) Viewed 1766 times

Turn 98, Italian Forces.jpg (288.17 KiB) Viewed 1766 times

[exalted]

So been a lot of actual real life so not WiTE2 for a few days.

Here are Turns 99-101.
Mostly not that much real action like the real Axis during 1943 my real offensive will be a bit late due to a need for reinforcements and recovery but everything is starting to look good and the opportunistic encirclement and exploitation north of Stalino has cost the Soviets a lot of men and decent formations even if it delays any planned offensive even more.

Turn 99

Turn 99, Kursk and Kharkov, the dance of armored forces....jpg (481.2 KiB) Viewed 1719 times

Axis armored forces surrounds even more Soviet formations as earlier pockets are mostly cleared up. Severe soviet casualties and it shows a problem for the 43+ AI which is that as counter density is reduced with the formation of Corps level formations its ability to defend in depth is reduced in some areas. If those are the right areas the Axis can make it suffer a lot by concentrating armor in that region.

Turn 100, Kursk-Kharkov, mobile forces annhilate the soviets....jpg (471.81 KiB) Viewed 1719 times

Huge but worthless landmass recovered by the axis forces, I'll actually give most of it up except to build a fortified line north of my fortification brigades. Rest of my forces rest but if something is made damned sure its that if your playing with Enhanced TB control always take all armored/motorized italians onto the map they can easily and cheaply be replaced and their mobility give them something of the equivalent to soviet cavalry in function. They won't preform any miracles in combat but mobility is more important in this game.

Turn 101, The Front .jpg (528.85 KiB) Viewed 1719 times

Aggressive maneuvering in the south is finished and I wait to recover a bit more from the winter before launching a larger offensive rotating infantry and getting some stability in the south. The direction of the 43 offensive is unclear but mostly it will probably be on the southern plains to destroy as many soviet units as possible without any city as a goal.

Turn 101, Forces.png (273.17 KiB) Viewed 1719 times

Recent offensive operations and recovery have put is in near parity to Soviet forces but as we still hold some kind of qualitative edge we might actually have the stronger forces on the map. Well this will probably end with a failed soviet offensive during 44 but lets see if we can get there even if real life takes up increasingly much time right now

[exalted]

So turn 102-103 was pretty much mud and rest for both sides, not much happening but then I started turn 104 and saw the start of a Soviet summer offensive...well that and North Africa surrendering. The later pretty much proving to me that there is no reason to tool up North Africa a lot of success events basically gave me a month which is nothing.

A small teaser from turn 103 Soviet turn however as I'm working on a really complicated turn 104, my opinion of the Rumanians took a turn for the worse.

Turn 103, Soviet Offensive...holy shit rumanians suck.jpg (139.34 KiB) Viewed 1681 times

So my solid line of supposedly CV 75+ rumanians get attacked along the line and what happens...well they get defeated in every occation except for Rostov which is basically CV CRAZY High!.

Increasing the moral of Rumanians might do something to the on MAP CV but this line should have held at least somewhere...lets look on the fights.

[exalted]

Turn 103, Rumanians Suck 1.jpg (171.03 KiB) Viewed 1680 times

So from 424 -> 73 CV yay for rumanians.

Turn 103, Rumanians Suck 2.jpg (162.96 KiB) Viewed 1680 times

So these Rumanians held in the first fight but lost 50% of their CV in that fight and then got from 256 -> 102 CV yay you rock Rumanians.

Turn 103, Rumanians Suck 3.jpg (152.66 KiB) Viewed 1680 times

So here we go from 453 -> 70 once more your awesome rumanians.

Turn 103, Rumanians Suck 4.jpg (175.58 KiB) Viewed 1680 times

So in the last fight we go from 597 -> 145.

Well I could live with having been retreated in all these fights but look at the casualties...the soviets basically take no casualties for breaking a heavily defended, heavily fortified and decently supplied line of fortresses. Its hilariously biased against the axis minors and these minors have about +20 moral from what you would usually expect...

140k of rumanians and 1100 guns couldn't kill more than 4k soviets...under the best of possible circumstances...**** ridiculous....they obviously started retreating when the soviet artillery barrage started...

[exalted]

Turn 103, Soviet Offensive...entire 1st pzgrp pushed back more or less.jpg (206.64 KiB) Viewed 1676 times

Next up the results of the soviet offensives against pzGrp1 and the line from Kursk to Kharkov, shifts about half the panzer divisions of 1st pzGrp and several other divisions along the line without effort as corps level formations get in on the action.

I won't finish turn 104 probably for a couple of days but lets just say its been interesting...

[Stamb]

top notch performance from Soviets best allies

[exalted]

Yepp in my next grand campaign the Axis allies will be where they belong in the reserves and digging, except for the mobile elements they are actually kind of useful if not so much for their fighting power.

Got the south part of the front done today. Lots of Italians and some germans are being sent to Italy, I had expected to do so but this is a month or even two earlier than I hoped for well such is life. Keeping some elite unit and as much mobile forces as I can but infantry divisions and some mountain are going home to defend Italy.

Turn 104, Retreat from Rostov.jpg (283.38 KiB) Viewed 1606 times

First the retreat from Rostov the idea here is to make at least a token resistances at each of the two rivers west of Rostov and the two fortresses positions will probably hold until the threat of outflanking. All to build up my Stalino line so that it holds until the early capture bonus runs out. If it is doable I have no clue, the line will shorten from now on so counter density should increase on my side but so will the soviet one which is a very very bad thing right now. Hopefully rivers will make it at least not 100% sure that my forces are defeated in each fight. The germans on the northern half of this area are actually some of my strongest infantry divisions with good leaders so lets hope they can salvage the situation or at least delay it enough that the Kharkov - Stalino line gets dug.

Turn 104, Kharkov - Kursk, Overextended Soviets get surrounded, in huge tankbattle.jpg (273.14 KiB) Viewed 1606 times

So the soviet offensive shifted and inflicted severe casualties on my armored forces of the 1st pzGrp. Well the counter attack was basically what took time to plan with all mobile forces of the 17th Army, 1st PzGrp and various axis allies being pulled in to surround and exploit the gaps in the soviet attack.

While I lost 800 AFV here the soviet losses are closer to 2500 AFV and around 3000 Aircraft. Manpower exchange however is only tilted somewhat in the axis favor but I expect that will change next turn as at least the western pocket will hold and it will have a few hundred thousand surrendering soviets in it.

Some extra credit to on of my favorite formation GD with 51st and 52nd PzRegiment attached 500 tanks make a difference. It can actually shift even some weaker soviet corps on its lonesome.

[exalted]

So restarting this tentatively as I'm going to have a bit more time after a rush of real life take all my time.

Played a few turns 105-106, which included a lot of destroyed soviet corps but also 100k+ dead axis soldiers each turn. German high command dream about being able to stop the soviets now that there is only 5 millions of them but they are probably a bit optimistic.

Turn 107, Pskov.jpg (473.66 KiB) Viewed 1527 times

The defenses at Pskov has basically been static since autumn 41 but are now collapsing so at least a few more corps need to go her unless I'm going to hand the Soviets early capture of Tallin and Pskov. Will try to shore up the defenses here somehow.

Turn 107, Smolensk & Orel.jpg (562.02 KiB) Viewed 1527 times

Small encirclement around Smolensk but I should send some mobile forces to defend Pskov probably. Actually the defense here works pretty well now so not a critical area any more.

Turn 107, Kharkov & Kursk.jpg (343.25 KiB) Viewed 1527 times

While I kept Kursk and Kharkov over the spring which I didn't think I would, and the soviet lost a lot of forces trying to take it. Germans are going to pivot away from Kursk trying to re-distribute troops away from this sector into the south and north, there is a lot of hexes that I can loose here without any cost.

Turn 107, Stalino and the Rumanians.jpg (314.06 KiB) Viewed 1527 times

Rumanians are getting whopped all over the place in the south and the remnants of my Stalingrad force is getting smacked about at least as badly. Pulling back as slowly as possible towards Stalino which we are going to keep for as long as possible a second line of forts are being built at the next set of objective cities.

[Jango32]

So what are the conclusions? Is it just a case of morale being too low or are Axis allies guilty of simply existing which plummets their combat performance?

[exalted]

I think that increasing the moral of the Axis allies does help, it gives them a higher CV which by itself is protection against the AI from attacking, also except for Hungarians the number of routes I've suffered have been few. Actually I'd say +20nm is a bit too much +15nm might have been better to get the feel that they are more brittle than german divisions right now they take punishment really well. The problem is that they still take that punishment in most attacks once Corps level formations appear on the soviet side.

The problem is however a compounded one where nm is a small part. Overall the game designers have made the Axis allies worst at everything from nm, equipment, leaders to TOE. Fixing one of these won't fix the problem part of which is really obscured somewhere in the combat engine. Maybe when I start the next game I'll bump the leader values by a point for most axis allies leader and test it.

The problem with raising nm however is that I think it does strange things to some of the requirements in the Italian, African and Balkan theaters not much of a problem for me since I was mostly adding germans and removing italians but just rising nm is pretty much a cheat since it reduce the number of units that need to be in Italy and Africa primarily.

At the same time if you have control over the Theaters of Battle always always get all mobile italians onto the map they are the axis improved version of the soviet cavalry divisions.

[AlbertN]

I do agree there - as I explained some time ago in the 'Axis Minor too weak' post there is a quadruple dip on them:

• National Morale
  Leadership
  Equipment - quality
  Equipment - amount

The first one is simply too low and needs bumping.

The second -may- be right; but the Soviets can simply change their leadership within few turns and have their finest officer all over the place where it matters. It will be rare to find some 2-3-4 rating Soviet commander around in general by August '41. While Romanian leaders are stuck as they're.

Soviets should replace leaders way slower - but Romanians are probably broadly and widely underrated by 1 point here and there? I do not know BUT to bump them up would do good to the game balance imo.

Equipment quality and amount should be the main limiting factors - more than anything else. Leadership should -not be good- but it can be decent, and right now they've a bunch of 3 to 5 values.

[exalted]

To expand a bit on the above I would say ranking is as follows for the axis allies in usefulness with NM changed.

Basically I'd say number 1-3 on this list are in a good place they match the soviets sometimes but have utterly no chance once it comes to corps level formations. 4--6 under-perform all day long every day of the war once 1941 is over or at least to mid 43 where I'm now.

1: Rumanian, Hungarian Armored and Slovak mobile division. Easily the best in all ways...really should always have german leadership.
2: Italian Armored units they are too brittle to match the Rumanans and Hungarians they are still good but will be worn out quickly and can't actually do the kind of attacks that are nearly as good as german ones. Still very nice mobile units to have always get them on the map if able.
3: Italian elites and mobile units that are not armored. The elite units can actually occasionally hold a position, the mobile units are like cavalry units on crack for breakthrough operations, super useful.
4: Rumanians...might suck but there are a lot of them and stacked three deep they at least gain decent CV in forts. Won't cut it in 43 when soviet has too much artillery and too many tanks to basically notice trampling some rumanians.
5: Italian regulars, there is basically little to no use for these units without a NM change and with it they are marginal for anything but the lightest duty.
6: Hungarian Infantry, yes I know normally these are good and I think they would rise in regard the longer the war goes on but in 43 they suck at least when the other axis allies benefit more from NM improvement.

To show why hungarians are currently lowest in regard.

Turn 107, Why hungarians are the worst axis ally...1.png (621.38 KiB) Viewed 1458 times

This doesn't even happen to the soviets does it?

Turn 108, Why hungarians are the worst axis ally...2.png (616.35 KiB) Viewed 1458 times

First shattered division of the campaign yay for the hungarians.

Yes those fights where tough and they should suffer in them but those to are the worst results so far of my campaign I think

[Stamb]

i thought that you had good German commanders paired with Axis allies
did it make a difference?

[exalted]

So Turn 108
Basically I'm on the defensive so from now on it will be slowly pulling back attempting to not give the soviets too many early capture bonuses. Not the most exciting but around Kharkov and Smolensk where my mobile forces are gathered there is room for some excitement and counter-attacks to throw the soviets off balance.

Turn 108, North Front, soviets go bombing...moving more troops too Pskov and Narva area..jpg (394.4 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

Actually where I'm most worried right now, the soviets are obviously focusing their bombing around here and the Luftwaffe is mostly concentrated in the center-south so that might work.

Pretty sure I'm going to loose Pskov early in part because I've put zero effort on this front for most of the war. Could possibly re-locate some assets of 2nd PzArmy there but then I'd probably loose smolensk early instead...

Doing a slow conga shuffle north ward with the entire line trying to move forces towards Pskov but its going slowly and with 2 full corps in action around Narva I'm weak and the threat of teleporting soviet-armies are high.

Turn 108, Central Front, well pulling back slowly to protect orel a few more turns...limited counter attacks with GD.jpg (185.58 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

Probably the most fun front for me, most of my offensive and strong units are focused here and the idea is to slowly abandon all three objective cities here with only Orel still having a time bonus it sets the pace while 17th army (mostly panzers and SS) and 1st PzArmy are basically bouncing any exposed soviets in the area with heavy counterattacks that leave routed and destroyed soviet units in their wake. I love it when you can get 30-40CV units in action even if they halve their CV each attack

Turn 108, Stalino Front...trying to pile enough bodies in the way but it is hard.jpg (389.03 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

A fairly calm day in Stalinoland but the soviets are uncomfortably close to Stalino even if the defenses are deep and units are stacked three high on the approach. I'd say its a tossup if I can keep the city to the time limit. Rumanians and hungarians here pretty much account for half the axis losses each turn.

A retreat line at the next series of victory points towns is already being prepared. But I'm really unused to playing the defensive so I'm feeling like a rank amateur when it comes to building up defense in depth.

I also have this deep seated instinct to never abandon a hex without a fight that I'm trying to get rid of it obviously doesn't work against CV50-100+ soviet stacks.

[exalted]

i thought that you had good German commanders paired with Axis allies
did it make a difference?

I have some axis allies especially italians fighting under good 6-7 lvl germans, it does help but it helps the good divisions immensely much more than the bad ones and really the good ones doesn't need the help its the lousy divisions that are ridiculously lousy.

There really is an exponential usefulness curve to units in this game, the higher up it you are the more force multipliers do to that unit. The problem is that a lot of axis allies are so far down the usefulness curve that you could put them under Model, at Supply 4 and only attack with 100 CPP and they would still pretty much be useless. Preferably some more things would be additive rather than straight up multipliers I think

Rumanian 1st Armored for example has had great success but its a good division, under german leaders.

5th Hun Light Division have been abysmal and is under decent german leaders. While Hungarian Armored under the same leader does fine.

Slightly better leaders would probably be a good idea simply because your not going to put the bulk of rumanians, hungarians and italians under german leadership, it probably wouldn't need to be much either say +1 to 2-3 values would frequently be enough as well as cutting their change leader costs in half at least

A thought that struck me is it possible to drastically improve the political value of axis allies leaders to get them to have a decent/workable change leader cost?

[exalted]

Lets look at the best performing divisions of the campaign.

Turn 110, Best performing german divisions.png (292.46 KiB) Viewed 1430 times

On the german front not much surprise some hard working infantry divisions but otherwise it is the motorized and mechanized divisions which have been doing a lot of the heavy lifting during this campaign. Especially the SS ones are probably the best divisions around. Panzer divisions aren't up in the top mostly because they are way to brittle and their use during winter 41 was limited to say the least.

Turn 110, Best performing rumanian divisions.jpg (72.22 KiB) Viewed 1430 times

Rumanians top are of course the Armored which is a lot better than the rest, then the elite ones after which some infantry divisions roll up.

Turn 110, Best performing italian divisions.jpg (75.63 KiB) Viewed 1430 times

Completely dominated by italians under german command

Turn 110, Best performing hungarians and slovak divisions.jpg (66.33 KiB) Viewed 1430 times

Once more completely dominated by divisions under german command.

[exalted]

Turn 109

Turn 109, North Front, Pskov is getting impressivley bombed....jpg (301.11 KiB) Viewed 1390 times

No clue if the soviet bombing around Pskov actually does anything but it looks impressive. Slowly moving more and more forces into the area and I might hold the city but it will probably come down to a bit of luck as those huge corps formation steamrolls nearly everything.

Getting smacked about in the easily defended territory east and west of Smolensk but that's mostly because those divisions are completely spent and if I had the option would be pulled out of the line.

Turn 109, Central Front, abandoning Kursk and Orel ticking down....jpg (127.51 KiB) Viewed 1390 times

Orel looks reasonably safe and the bonus is ticking down so this one seems fine.

Kursk abandoned as it was outflanked and really need to minimize losses to my frontline to recover somewhat.

Counter attacks around Kharkov routs several soviet formations and mostly 17th Army with its SS and GD divisions as its core easily holds the ground.

Turn 109, Southern Front, Not Much new but the red menace is closing in.jpg (323.17 KiB) Viewed 1390 times

Stalino front is pushed hard and looks to be in tough shit but it isn't collapsing and I get quite a few holds on the main line and did some counter attacks with 1st pz army.

Rumanians escaped notice in the absolute south...yay they are basically a spent force until they get some time to refit.

All in all panic but not collapse of the axis forces.

[exalted]

Turn 110
Not that much action this turn mainly more of the same and intense air raids that possibly do something but I'm not sure around Pskov. Is there any way to check, seems to basically have no effect at all?

Turn 110, Northern Front, re-aligning forces ready to get out of Orel in a few turns.jpg (466.89 KiB) Viewed 1388 times

Realigning some forces once more to get room for a pull back from Orel in a two turns or so to more defensible ground and shifting more forces north towards Pskov eventually.

Turn 110, Kharkov, Counterattack....jpg (169.4 KiB) Viewed 1388 times

Very little excitement in the south but my counter attacks around Kharkov routed the entire spearhead of soviet attacks around ten corps worth by encirclement and defeat, didn't go for actual encirclement since I didn't think I'd be able to keep them surrounded over the end turn. Maybe it was a bit cowardly but they should be out of play for at least 2-3 turn I guess?

Had a nice Axis ally surprise however when 170th German Inf, 25th Hun. Light Division, 2nd Tridentia Alpini defeated 3! attacks by at least two full corps each. Special citations have been issued and medals are going to rain on these divisions if high command has anything to say about it. One thing to note about these fights however is that casualties on both sides are basically none existent and I sometimes wonder what a battle means because 60k soldiers fighting it out with more than 900 artillery pieces should probably end up with more than 23 dead on one side and 288 on the other side.

[Jango32]

Interdiction is practically consequence-free, yes. It takes a lot of bombing investment to raise it in a single hex so movement costs go up to a noticeable extent, so practically you're just flying bombers for the sake of flying and bombing.

[exalted]

Interdiction is practically consequence-free, yes. It takes a lot of bombing investment to raise it in a single hex so movement costs go up to a noticeable extent, so practically you're just flying bombers for the sake of flying and bombing.

Guessed so since I couldn't even see an interdiction level rising, no real damage or effect on my units and little enough on the soviets but some ops losses

Thanks for confirming it. I not very impressed by the air war and mostly stay with ground support and even that seems basically mostly nice to have rather than actually very useful.