Korsun HPS/Tiller version

Adam Parker · Post by **Adam Parker** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:32 am

Originally posted by von Schmidt
Talking about operational level games: I am a bit surprised that nobody has mentioned Schwerpunkt's 'Russo-German War (41-44)' (http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/index.htm).

Von probably because the game's interface is unfathomable - and it is a great shame for I was in contact with the designer and owner and he has a great war gaming philosophy.

RGW should have been - the - definitive game of divisional level, ost front combat.

I may have to challenge you to a game of Wiking Wipeout because of those PzC comments

Kent Pfeiffer · Post by **Kent Pfeiffer** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:38 am

Originally posted by Adam Parker
Von probably because the game's interface is unfathomable - and it is a great shame for I was in contact with the designer and owner and he has a great war gaming philosophy.

I don't know about that. The interface is certainly clunky, but it's hardly any worse Tiller's standard UI. I think RGW never achieved much wide-spread appeal largely because it is butt-ugly (aesthetics DO matter, even in a wargame) and several of its elements didn't work correctly at the time of the original release. Too bad, because I had high hopes for it, and a great deal of respect for Ron Dockal.

Adam Parker · Post by **Adam Parker** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:30 am

Originally posted by Kent Pfeiffer
I don't know...

Finally agree that you've said something valid there Kent

Back O/T, the thing about Decisive Battles and PzC is that they are both inuitive designs. Hopping into gameplay is pretty much immediate in both yet, they are so divergent in approach.

Adam.

von Schmidt · Post by **von Schmidt** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:01 pm

Originally posted by PeterF
Yes, but, IIRC, it suffers from the same deformation as TOAW, to wit, no hex side features; rivers run through the center of hexes. IMO, this doomed TOAW beyond all redemption despite its innovative features. This is an OK implementation for a tactical game but at the operational+ scale there's simply no excuse.

Question. If opposing units are adjacent but astride the SAME river is there a combat penalty? Think about it.....

Agreed about the river issue; having it run through the hex leads to all sorts of weird situations.
I vaguely remember that the Schwerpunkt Western front game might have rivers on hexsides (IIRC).

It is however not a game-breaker though (I equate it with KP/TAO's busy maps; annoying but the rest of the game makes up for it).

BTW, the latest unofficial TOAW patch (1.06) actually allows for rivers on hexsides.
So if that is your greatest gripe, you might want to give the game another shot...

von Schmidt

Capitaine · Post by **Capitaine** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:32 pm

BTW, the latest unofficial TOAW patch (1.06) actually allows for rivers on hexsides.

Do you have a link to a site w/ that patch, v. Schmidt? That would be a major thing for TOAW (and I wonder if that is the only terrain modification included; I recall pestering Norm personally about certain terrain "issues" that gave me problems and he seemed to agree...).

Fidel_Helms · Post by **Fidel_Helms** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:45 pm

Actually, the 1.06 patch to TOAW does not introduce hexside rivers, and actually introduced such a raft of combat resolution bugs that everyone has gone back to using 1.04.

von Schmidt · Post by **von Schmidt** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:57 pm

Ouch! You are completely and utterly correct about the rivers in TAOW 1.06; still in hex istelf.

My memory and crap reading skills screwed me up. Sorry...

I based my statement on reading the following months ago:

'Look for the patch soon - just realized it won't be the "flaming bush" upgrade we have all been anxiously awaiting. However, he did share one tweak he is working on for future patches (not 1.06)...'...

(followed by a screenshot of TAOW with hexside rivers).

(from http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showthr ... eadid=1901)

There might be some hope for the future though.#
To quote the Great Koger:

'It's been quite a while since I worked seriously with the
code, so 1.06 is primarily a test version intended to reveal anything
that may have crept into the logic over the last year or so - new
logic that I may have left unfinished then forgot, any changes
necessary to accommodate XP, etc. Once I'm sure the current code base
is clean, I plan to go back and add goodies as time allows. Since it's
not a money making proposition, I make no promises - but it's pretty
likely that new TOAW features will be coming your way before long.'

(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group ... com&rnum=2)

Anyway, sincerely sorry about raising hopes and adding confusion with regards to TOAW.

von Schmidt

(still think that RGW is underrated tho - much better gamesystem and playing experience than the more talked about PzC East front games)

Fidel_Helms · Post by **Fidel_Helms** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:13 pm

As an aside, if I remember correctly, the original reason that Koger did in-hex, rather than hex-side rivers was because of the fact that TOAW supports riverine units. Given that no one's ever really used that particular function of the game system, I can see why he's now more willing to switch to hexside rivers.

Capitaine · Post by **Capitaine** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:34 pm

I can see Norm using riverine units as a basis for in-hex rivers. However, a better workaround would've been to require such units always to be adjacent to a navigable river hexside and suffer no "river penalty" for attacks. Seems designers always take the most drastic, invasive method possible to accommodate some fairly minor need. :p

Kent Pfeiffer · Post by **Kent Pfeiffer** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:28 pm

Hey Adam, I can't help it that RGW's interface is "unfathonable" to you, especially since it's broadly similar to Tiller's standard interface: a row of buttons across the top, drag-and-drop movement, etc. Then again, maybe it's not so surprising given that you find the "braindead" AI of PzC to be challenging.

Kevinugly · Post by **Kevinugly** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:25 pm

Girls, please kiss and make up;)

Kent Pfeiffer · Post by **Kent Pfeiffer** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:19 pm

Just having a little fun, Mom.

Adam Parker · Post by **Adam Parker** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:43 am

LOL

Quite seriously I do hope to provide something more solid comparing the two systems (DB/PzC) by way of an article in the near term but first up, will be some solid KP play vs the AI. Life's been busy but the rulebook is almost absorbed and there are plenty of interesting and novel concepts I've seen.

For example adding the cost of the hex occupied to the hex moved to, dividing it by 2 and basing the movement OP cost of a per hex move on that. With 3 km hexes and 12 hour turns it shows an interesting spin on the "which part of a hex does a unit occupy" debate.

I quite like these little pieces of forethought that I think are the brain child of Roger Keating.

Adam.

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:57 pm

Originally posted by Adam Parker
..............

For example adding the cost of the hex occupied to the hex moved to, dividing it by 2 and basing the movement OP cost of a per hex move on that. With 3 km hexes and 12 hour turns it shows an interesting spin on the "which part of a hex does a unit occupy" debate.

I quite like these little pieces of forethought that I think are the brain child of Roger Keating.

Adam.

I really like that idea too. Seems so logical that I don't know why it has taken this long for someone to come up with it. Of course it is so logical that I never thought of it either.

hank · Post by **hank** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:54 am

Capitaine wrote:...

Decisive Battles is NOT "wargames lite", it is the best, most sophisticated, and moreover most accurate (as much as you can model accuracy) PC operational wargame that's available. Sometimes "more" is not better; it is worse.

A question: You have Decisive Action it appears from your post; does there exist a patch or a version that I have yet to find information on, that will run on Windows 2000 or XP ?

I've wanted to try this game for quite a while but the ads say its for Win95/98..... at least the ones i've seen.

any help would be appreciated

hank

Capitaine · Post by **Capitaine** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:43 pm

hank wrote:A question: You have Decisive Action it appears from your post; does there exist a patch or a version that I have yet to find information on, that will run on Windows 2000 or XP ?

hank, must be a misunderstanding: "Decisive Battles" is the system of both "The Ardennes Offensive" and "Korsun Pocket", which is what my statement you quoted referred to. "Decisive Action" apparently is an earlier game system by SSG of which I'm not familiar.

If you're looking for some demo or patch material for TAO, there might be something on Matrix's KP website. Otherwise, I have no idea. Sorry.

hank · Post by **hank** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:49 pm

Capitaine wrote:hank, must be a misunderstanding: "Decisive Battles" is the system of both "The Ardennes Offensive" and "Korsun Pocket", which is what my statement you quoted referred to. "Decisive Action" apparently is an earlier game system by SSG of which I'm not familiar.

If you're looking for some demo or patch material for TAO, there might be something on Matrix's KP website. Otherwise, I have no idea. Sorry.

Sorry, I was grasping for straws. I've been watching the Decisive Actions game waiting for a WinNT,2000 version but to no avail. Its an HPS Simulations product. You may want to check it out if you haven't heard of it. ... just another fix for a wargame addict ...

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/D ... ction.html

Thanks for the response. I ordered KP a few days ago and I am anxiously awaiting its arrival. I'm a big PBEM player (PzC) and hope to get a KP battle going a week or so after it arrives. I'm not a die-hard PzC player and am always looking for improved game play ... KP looks like a step up to me (IMHO). It really looks good for PBEM play and apparently more titles are 'in the works'. .... I can't wait.

Any takers ? Send me an email or reply and I'll get back with you after I've 'mastered' the user interface. hehe

thanks again

hank