Originally posted by Panzer Leo
That is the general thinking, but it is only partly true. First of all it starts with the US classification of this weapon (the sIG33 in all it's appearances) as infantry gun. It is not a gun, it is a howitzer (like the Handbook on German Military Forces calls it correctly), as it can fire in the upper and lower register (upper means elevation higher then 45 degrees).
It has the same optics like a 105mm FH18 and the platoons have rangefinding and calculating troops like mortar units.
Although it was used in a forward role and also in direct fire missions, to support infantry, it always was intended to give indirect support aswell.
I have more pics of a sIG33 in action with indirect fire as with direct.
That is why it is modeled in H2H as onboard arty.
"Yes I have seen it but I have also seen pictures where Sherman using their 75 mm gun to bombard and I have read article that Russian uses it 152 to bombard and destroyed 2 German battalion of infantry. Since the indirect fire cannot be changed to using it without line of sight, I think the solution is not there yet"
PzIV was the better T-34 killer and had HEAT from the start on. What actually is wrong, is the amount of tanks players use in their games...they were much rarer then their appearance on SP battlefields...
"Do you know where could I get an article on the arrangement of ammon in Pz IV 75mm gun. It not that I dont believe you but I having looking for that fact and still find no avail. I really like to read on. I also know that the 75 mm IG also had a shotgun type shell which is why that 75mm IG was so famous and used for nearly the whole war but nobody managed to create it effect in this gun yet. The shell is supposedly to be very close range only"
It goes down to your tactics...attacking has become more difficult, as it was in history...no more "race for the vic hexes and the first one to capture it wins"...that is completely intentional...
"Yes I know that assualting has been all long the hardest but it is always generally the case that Tank is the king in the open and infantry is the queen in the close. But this configuration now made the infantry the tunnel rat in the open, they are so hard to spot even in the open. It is espically true when you play as the Russia against the Finland. Now we can use infantry and assualt, gone were the day when the armour dash on the open and the infantry fight in the forest. Think in that point. I like to play infantry too but now my main force in the front is infantry dashing to the victory point with tons of smoke since any tank come near they are dead"
Not an option...this cannot be changed...we're stuck with what we have...and imagine all the stuff used as arty...wouldn't be very historical...just imagine your 75mm offboard arty support is not a field gun, but a platoon of Shermans...to have tanks as indirect arty support on the board is completely unnecessary, IMHO...
"Well since it cannot be done then there is nothing we could do. I do not mean that make all tanks artillery, I was just wondering maybe some of the weapon could be configure back to gun and if they wanted to use indirect fire, they use the indirect function but without the need to have line of sight."
"You still have not answered my last question on the configuration of the Wulffamen 40, why they are have 4 HE 4 HE and 4 Flame, If I got hold of that and have 8 ammo trucks. I could fire 4 HE and 2 Flame in one turn and continue for 4 turn and stop for 1 turn. In 10 turn, 2 of these can turn the whole battlefield to nothing. As for the Pz39 H RAK, it was used by Rommel. with 5 Flame and 1 HE, I think you are joking right. Maybe you enlighten me on that, thank you"
Sturmtiger & 38cm rocket & splash damage
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Panzer Leo
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:00 pm
- Location: Braunschweig/Germany
Originally posted by o4r
"You still have not answered my last question on the configuration of the Wulffamen 40, why they are have 4 HE 4 HE and 4 Flame, If I got hold of that and have 8 ammo trucks. I could fire 4 HE and 2 Flame in one turn and continue for 4 turn and stop for 1 turn. In 10 turn, 2 of these can turn the whole battlefield to nothing. As for the Pz39 H RAK, it was used by Rommel. with 5 Flame and 1 HE, I think you are joking right. Maybe you enlighten me on that, thank you"
8 ammo trucks...
If you want to spend around 600pts for ammo and buy the whole PzPionier Kompanie to get 4 Wurfrahmen 40 at around 1700pts, you better should turn the battlefield into an inferno, otherwise the equipement your opponent buys will just swarm you...
And if you should wonder if the Wurfrahmen 40 ever got reloaded or if it was just single use with 6 rockets, check the picture and try to count the empty crates...
About the Pz39 RAK I actually don't know...I thought I took it 1 to 1 from the Czech OOB...haven't looked into it...might have been a mix up with the rockets...
I'm looking into the 75mm HEAT rounds...as far as I can recall, there existed several types (Gr.38 HL/A, B and C).
The C is the one modeled in the game...I don't have production figures for the different types, but it seems at least the C was not built before '42...so the ones in the game might be a bit too strong...maybe I'll find something...
BTW, the 32cm Flame rocket was produced as much as the 28cm HE one in 40/41. It then dropped, but stayed all in all at a ratio of 3 : 1.
Mir nach, ich folge euch !
I know that the German had hollow round maybe that is the HEAT you are talking about as the hollow round so called by the German then was acutally a chemical round. The round is packing the same power through the range it could be fired but the book did say something like the effective range is much shorter.
Ok I agreed that the Wufflamen did has reload but certainly I know they need time to reload so a full firing of 6 (5 HE and 1 Flame) should be good enough. But the reloading should take quite sometime. Well according to Close Combat III, they need a quite a while to reload. I remember at one time I was clsoing attached to this game and there was a discussion about this issue. Hey you are so nice, can you figure a way to stop those 37mm gun in the Pz39H to fire as a artillery when they fire their rocket. I really hate the 37mm gun firing, cause I took out tanks with it. By the way the rocket are too accurate. Maybe your fr.1 version could correct that.
I actually bought the company which contain 2 wufflamen as created in your H2H, and I really get those supply truck but I only got 4, and I supplement them with depot. We did a research in this forum before and found out that when you are in depot, the reload is twice as fast, that how we get double supply with lower number of supply vehicle.
Ok why the German drop out the Flame rocket, because it is not effective. I read it somewhere but could find the book I read else I could quote it to you. But history shows that when it is dropped out of production definitely there are some fact to it. Sometime big doesnt really mean effective. But from this game I found out that the one HE can take out building easily with a shot but no matter how many round I hit a building with flame, it just stand there. I will trial futher before can really commit to that facts.
I really hope somebody could really get the indirect fire button to fire without line of sight. Any programmer out there.....???
Ok I agreed that the Wufflamen did has reload but certainly I know they need time to reload so a full firing of 6 (5 HE and 1 Flame) should be good enough. But the reloading should take quite sometime. Well according to Close Combat III, they need a quite a while to reload. I remember at one time I was clsoing attached to this game and there was a discussion about this issue. Hey you are so nice, can you figure a way to stop those 37mm gun in the Pz39H to fire as a artillery when they fire their rocket. I really hate the 37mm gun firing, cause I took out tanks with it. By the way the rocket are too accurate. Maybe your fr.1 version could correct that.
I actually bought the company which contain 2 wufflamen as created in your H2H, and I really get those supply truck but I only got 4, and I supplement them with depot. We did a research in this forum before and found out that when you are in depot, the reload is twice as fast, that how we get double supply with lower number of supply vehicle.
Ok why the German drop out the Flame rocket, because it is not effective. I read it somewhere but could find the book I read else I could quote it to you. But history shows that when it is dropped out of production definitely there are some fact to it. Sometime big doesnt really mean effective. But from this game I found out that the one HE can take out building easily with a shot but no matter how many round I hit a building with flame, it just stand there. I will trial futher before can really commit to that facts.
I really hope somebody could really get the indirect fire button to fire without line of sight. Any programmer out there.....???
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Panzer Leo
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:00 pm
- Location: Braunschweig/Germany
Originally posted by o4r
I know that the German had hollow round maybe that is the HEAT you are talking about as the hollow round so called by the German then was acutally a chemical round. The round is packing the same power through the range it could be fired but the book did say something like the effective range is much shorter.
Ok I agreed that the Wufflamen did has reload but certainly I know they need time to reload so a full firing of 6 (5 HE and 1 Flame) should be good enough. But the reloading should take quite sometime. Well according to Close Combat III, they need a quite a while to reload. I remember at one time I was clsoing attached to this game and there was a discussion about this issue. Hey you are so nice, can you figure a way to stop those 37mm gun in the Pz39H to fire as a artillery when they fire their rocket. I really hate the 37mm gun firing, cause I took out tanks with it. By the way the rocket are too accurate. Maybe your fr.1 version could correct that.
I actually bought the company which contain 2 wufflamen as created in your H2H, and I really get those supply truck but I only got 4, and I supplement them with depot. We did a research in this forum before and found out that when you are in depot, the reload is twice as fast, that how we get double supply with lower number of supply vehicle.
Ok why the German drop out the Flame rocket, because it is not effective. I read it somewhere but could find the book I read else I could quote it to you. But history shows that when it is dropped out of production definitely there are some fact to it. Sometime big doesnt really mean effective. But from this game I found out that the one HE can take out building easily with a shot but no matter how many round I hit a building with flame, it just stand there. I will trial futher before can really commit to that facts.
I really hope somebody could really get the indirect fire button to fire without line of sight. Any programmer out there.....???
Hmmm...I really have troubles to get what you mean
The Pz39 Rak has an error...I simply mixed up the two rockets, the load should be just the other way around...
Anyways, you should stay away from the "Norway" units in any PBEM...they are meant for scenario designers or specially agreed upon what-if or strange encounters. The German OOB has all equipement one does need to play historical Germans...the rest is fancy stuff...
The Wurfrahmen 40 got a higher load, because H2H uses reduced ammo as default. As the load is so small, this weapon was effected the most by the reduced ammo (with only six rounds you automatically had to buy an ammo truck to use it). So I modeled it as if it had a trailer or so to carry some extra rounds when you have full ammo supply and about the six (varies), when you play with reduced ammo. It also was much increased in cost and you can only purchase it with the Panzer Pionier Kompanie.
The percentage of HE to Flame rockets is o.k. for the first years, later it may drop a bit. If this was a good idea to model it or not is debatable, ofcourse...
And PLEASE, don't base any of your arguments on weird formation setups...4 ammo trucks and depots also... ???
I never lost against someone who used such strange tactics...if you think you can win with such a nonsense setup, go and try if you want...but don't blame me for historical inaccuracy on modeling units when you use forces like this...
Mir nach, ich folge euch !
Point taken
Ok, I have actually look into OOB 7.1 and yours different. One reason that Pv IV was in favour over Pz III is not the HEAT that was provided but include the accuracy of Pz IV over Pz III.
The Pz IV from A to F1 all uses the same optical equipment whch is TZF5b, it has a magnification of 2.4, a field of view of 25 deg. When use for MG, it is effective to spot and target up to a range of 800m, For AP is upto 2000m, HE is up to 2000 m and for indirect fire it can use up to ranging for 6500m.
The data you presented to Pz IV from C to D and E had better range optical sight than Pz III, if we base on the optical equipment of Pz III A-G when they are armed with a 37 gun, they used the TZF5a, which is has the same capability as the TZF5b but only it cannot be used for indirect fire.
And from Pz III E to G when it is armed with a 5 cm /L42, they used the optical sight which TZF5aver1 model. This model which is still having the same capability of the Pz IV but much improvement over their MG which now the sight give the capability of MG to aim up to a range of 1500m.
However from Pz III from F to J onwards, they are equiped with TZF5e which has a better capability over Pz IV from C to F1 model. The optical sight now give them the capability to aim for MG up to 1200m, AP is 3000m, AP40 is 1500 and HE is 3000m.
The Pz IV only change their optical sight from F2 to G model onwards when they are equipment with 7.5 cm kwk L/43. The optical sight is TZF5f which now support the MG to 1200m, AP 2500, AP40 is 1500 and HE upto 3300m.
You like the data, I can email to you if you dont have it.
And in Western Front from 1943 to 1944, the common wufrahmen to use was actually the capture Renault UE (a tracked infantry carrier) which has 4 launcher for wurfrahmen 40 (only 4 28 cm HE), cause German had capture about 3000 of such vehicle. I have alot of pictures if you want, though the configuration is different but they are always carried in 4. I have afew video clip on that too they were used intentsive on the western front.
Ok, I have actually look into OOB 7.1 and yours different. One reason that Pv IV was in favour over Pz III is not the HEAT that was provided but include the accuracy of Pz IV over Pz III.
The Pz IV from A to F1 all uses the same optical equipment whch is TZF5b, it has a magnification of 2.4, a field of view of 25 deg. When use for MG, it is effective to spot and target up to a range of 800m, For AP is upto 2000m, HE is up to 2000 m and for indirect fire it can use up to ranging for 6500m.
The data you presented to Pz IV from C to D and E had better range optical sight than Pz III, if we base on the optical equipment of Pz III A-G when they are armed with a 37 gun, they used the TZF5a, which is has the same capability as the TZF5b but only it cannot be used for indirect fire.
And from Pz III E to G when it is armed with a 5 cm /L42, they used the optical sight which TZF5aver1 model. This model which is still having the same capability of the Pz IV but much improvement over their MG which now the sight give the capability of MG to aim up to a range of 1500m.
However from Pz III from F to J onwards, they are equiped with TZF5e which has a better capability over Pz IV from C to F1 model. The optical sight now give them the capability to aim for MG up to 1200m, AP is 3000m, AP40 is 1500 and HE is 3000m.
The Pz IV only change their optical sight from F2 to G model onwards when they are equipment with 7.5 cm kwk L/43. The optical sight is TZF5f which now support the MG to 1200m, AP 2500, AP40 is 1500 and HE upto 3300m.
You like the data, I can email to you if you dont have it.
And in Western Front from 1943 to 1944, the common wufrahmen to use was actually the capture Renault UE (a tracked infantry carrier) which has 4 launcher for wurfrahmen 40 (only 4 28 cm HE), cause German had capture about 3000 of such vehicle. I have alot of pictures if you want, though the configuration is different but they are always carried in 4. I have afew video clip on that too they were used intentsive on the western front.
Those rocket are nasty because of the accuracy of the weapon given in H2H. In history those rocket are really that nasty only if it hit. The 150mm is actually prefer in the latter part of the war because it is easier to handle and more accurate. Loading rocket of dia 280 and 320 is not an easy task even with the help of the tiny little crane attach to the vehicle.Frank W. wrote:those flame rockets are nasty.
just lost 2 tanks to 1 rocket
Acutually I was waiting for the combat leader since last year if somebody can in-corporate or improve over SPWAW code and make some extra changes like:
(1) Movement point are like normal but given extra features like fuel into consideration, given the point that German are really short of fuel in the latter part of war. Have you ever play German and run those tanks zip zag all over the map for 20 turns, if you calculate the movement we made, we have burned alot of fuel.
(2) Higher ratio for German Tiger 2, JagdTiger to breakdown.
(3) Delete the requirement for line of sight when using tank main gun for indirect fire.
Among all country that uses tank, I actually find that German are the most creative of all. They have more variant of tanks than any other country.
But they have fault of their own too which SPWAW cannot reflect, overall to say SPWAW is still one of the best war game I have ever played.
Now I am waiting for the following games:
(a) Harpoon version 2 but I think the company 360 is of no more so .... too bad
(b) Combat Leader from Matrix regardless of how much it cost.
(c) the latest OOB from Matrix.
(d) Fallout 3.... (RPG)