Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

All things die Riverbravo.

But then again, change is change. But not change just to change.

Change can be an improvement, but then don't fix it if it isn't broke.

Keep what you have, while making progress. Don't start all over again when you are already doing well.

Avalon Hill .... gone.

Matrix Games .... here.

SPI .... gone.

John Tiller ..... here

Talonsoft ..... gone

HPS ..... here

MMP ...... here

Avalanche Press ..... here

SSI ..... gone

Battlefront ...... here

Neppa Games ...... here

I could write this list a while longer, but I can assure you, the list of new names here only gets longer, while the list of names gone fizzles out rather shortly (for me at least). And I am just selecting from my own relatively narrow selection preferences.

Wargaming does not need me and my grognard approach, nor does it need the cutsey approach, to date, wargaming needs efficient circulation.
Say what you want about the game, but no one has to my knowledge out done Axis and Allies for market awareness.
Stupid looking game with idiotic looking plastic playing pieces and infinitely playable design.
And they are STILL making it. And it is STILL spawning clones coipies and variants of itself.
And it is NOT played on a computer.
And EVERYONE has heard of it.

Want to compete, you have to have your wargame appear in conditions similar.

Impress me, get your item on every Toys R Us shelf and Walmart. Then you can say you actually know what you are doing

None of us , and I mean NONE of us seem to have mastered this one particular reality.

Just found a new forum the other day. Several posts by people that have never even heard of Steel Panthers World at War. That means they have no clue who Matrix Games is either.

[riverbravo]

ORIGINAL: miclogic

The popularity of movies such as Saving Private Ryan, and series like Band of Brothers shows there are many people out there who could, with the right introduction, appreciate and come to love serious war games.

And when peoples interest in wargames is sparked by a movie such as SPR or BoB and gets a look at the heartstopping action of chit style games well,you can imagine the turn off.

[riverbravo]

Dumbing down implies the game has gotten dumber.
To imply a game is dumber because it is more serious me thinks speaks volumes about how little one might actually know about old style wargaming.

Oh the good old days of wargames that were board games, that came with manuals, that you either read fully, or tough luck, go back to playing checkers and Monopoly.

I remember reading closely the manual for games like Advanced Third Reich.
I can recall the discussions on the forums for Third Reich, and the questions that arose.
And often you could tell that most questions were originating from people that clearly could not speak english well at all.
And that was the thing, if your grasp of english sucked, your grasp of the game sucked.

No no,I needed to be a bit clearer on the 'dumbing down' bit.

The 'dumbing down' of pc specs needed to run the game.

In no way do I mean to take away from the AI.

If anything should be 'dumbed down' it should be the interface.wargames should strive to be complex with a lot of options and yet at the same time have a very simple interface and overall be user friendly.But given the often complex nature of wargames this isnt always as easy as it seems.

Some games achieve this others dont.

I agree that when I buy a wargame I want a manual that looks like a NY phone book.Why not?Im paying 50 bucks for it.

[riverbravo]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

All things die Riverbravo.

But then again, change is change. But not change just to change.

Change can be an improvement, but then don't fix it if it isn't broke.
.

But I guess if its a graphics change for the better and some people cant run the game then thats a change that should be left out of the designers plans?

[riverbravo]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

We can dream eh.

Voice recognised attack commands, that would impress me.

Computer tell Patton to send 4th Armoured up to Bastogne.

Its already here.

It just hasnt made its way to wargames to yet.

SOCOM has voice commands.No need to press anything to issue orders to other soldiers.

[riverbravo]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Just found a new forum the other day. Several posts by people that have never even heard of Steel Panthers World at War. That means they have no clue who Matrix Games is either.

And why mite this be?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Hmm reading your replies Riverbravo, I think we are arguing the same argument, just speaking in different languages hehe.

Your last post is perhaps the only one I wish to address (as it might not be me saying what you have already said the least hehe ).

Advertising, and product placement.

Being visible. Being seen.

That forum now knows about Steel Panthers, because one of us mentioned it.

I don't expect Matrix Games to be suddenly flooding Toys R Us or Walmart, but hmm would be cool eh David

The key question is, what is actively being done to see that the Matrix Games logo name and product is being seen by MORE people sooner?
And not just Matrix Games, but our whole hobby?

Cost it all comes down to cost. But frankly, you don't make money till you spend some.
That is a brutal reality of business that could care less about objections.

The only free advertising I know about, is "us", we posters, we forum dwellers.

Every time I post, I am basically employing a chance to speak out.

Is your sig line doing anything useful for instance?

When was the last time you discovered a new forum?

[riverbravo]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Hmm reading your replies Riverbravo, I think we are arguing the same argument, just speaking in different languages hehe.

Your last post is perhaps the only one I wish to address (as it might not be me saying what you have already said the least hehe ).

Advertising, and product placement.

Being visible. Being seen.

That forum now knows about Steel Panthers, because one of us mentioned it.

I don't expect Matrix Games to be suddenly flooding Toys R Us or Walmart, but hmm would be cool eh David

The key question is, what is actively being done to see that the Matrix Games logo name and product is being seen by MORE people sooner?
And not just Matrix Games, but our whole hobby?

Cost it all comes down to cost. But frankly, you don't make money till you spend some.
That is a brutal reality of business that could care less about objections.

The only free advertising I know about, is "us", we posters, we forum dwellers.

Every time I post, I am basically employing a chance to speak out.

Is your sig line doing anything useful for instance?

When was the last time you discovered a new forum?

The only disagreement we have on this topic is the using of graphics.

I feel the graphics are a must to bring in new players just due to the fact I feel its a must to attract attention to the genre with almost every other style of game showing flashy eye candy.That will be the first thing to grab peoples attention IMO.Look at the cover art,flip the box over to see screen shots.Then read the box and look at the specs.We all know the first impression is the most important.

I dont doubt for a second that we BOTH want to see our hobby grow and have a bit of everything for people to enjoy.

The roots of wargaming will never die.

If I had it my way the game would include a marker style along with a 3d style to get down and dirty with youre troops.

I dont think there will ever be a shortage of the games you prefer.It seems you have found a style you like and want to stick with it...thats fine.Some of us are still searching for the "holy grail" so to speak.

As far as forums and sig lines go....

I have found the boards I like so I stick to them.

I have gone beyond the call of duty when it comes to spreading the word.To the point of going to peoples houses at the request of some of the staff so new players could get a better grasp on certain games.When I find a company that I like and feel they make good products and dont have snooty attitudes then yes,I have no probs with it.

Advertising plays a strong part in any products success.Word of mouth is one thing but proper advertising is a must.

youre sig line says it all.Board games, the other wargaming Why settle for just one way to wargame

Why just settle for one way to wargame when multiple styles are available no matter what the style.

Edit

If you had a high end pc that would run more graphicaly demanding games and the games were great would you stil shy away from these types of games?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Odds are if I had the latest incarnation of industry standard PC on my desk here, I would still be me

Although it is likely I would have zero concern if it could run War in the Pacific or Combat Leader when they get released

I don't hate the shooters, they just don't have what I am looking for in a game for the most part.

My first reaction to seeing Battlefield Vietnam was "holy sheeeeeit that sure looks like a cool game". That's based entirely on the notion of combining period music with scenes out of films I can relate to though.
The Apocalypse Now map is just a hoot.

But I have no doubt, that the amusement would eventually dull soon enough.

Still, I won't say the game isn't fun.

But it is still just an arcade experience to me. The fact that all flying options move the same speed really is of zero importance to me. The game after all is not serious in the first place. Jumping out of a jet and leaping into a vehicle will do that

Several of us here have used an image of the Korsun Pocket game graphics. What must be said though, is that game, or HTTR or Strategic Command they are all going to be out of hand dismissed and seen as being equal to a non hard core gamer, even if one is clearly more graphically impressive than the other.

An unfortunate detail is this, most everyone here knows I am a total turn based board gaming fanatic, but that's just here.
Off this forum, telling someone you are a wargamer, is the same for the most part, as labelling yourself as being the same as me.
The public tends to see wargamers as looking like me.
Might not be flattering, obviously isn't true, doesn't alter the fact.

We will get farther with cleaver marketing than we will will cleaver graphics enhancements.

I have already witnessed people claim that Korsun Pocket was "too hard" to learn. And they cited the graphics.
I find that incredulous, but I still managed to hear it said.

[Fallschirmjager]

I think another reason wargames arnt as popular as other games is because of the 'immediate satisfaction' factor.

Lets take two of my recent purchases for example.

FarCry is the latest FPS game to come out and probably the best game I have played all year.
HttR is probably the best wargame I have played.

Farcry lasts about 20-25 hours.
If you are an average gamer the game takes about 15 minutes to learn.



I have had more fun in those hours than with any other game this year.
HttR takes about 1-2 hours to learn and another 10 or so to learn every.
The game has just about unlimited playability.

Both to me are just about as fun. However one was fun immediatly and offered the fun in much higher doses in a shorter period of time.
HttR was harder to get into initialy and the fun came in an even out spread over a longer time.

So...the idea is to hook the player quickly AND keep them entertained througout the experience.
How do we as wargamers acomplish this?
Any ideas?

[Von Rom]

It seems that wargame companies such as SSI and Talonsoft died, not directly due to them being wargame companies, but mainly because of their very poor product support and their inability to listen to their customers.

SSI in particular, would release a game, issue maybe one patch, then move on. In their forums, when people pointed out bugs that needed to be fixed in a game, were either ignored, or were made to feel as though SSI had never heard about the game. . .

SSI, IMO, was the author of its own demise. . .

For example, Panzer General II (and the whole 5 star series) which SSI made is still going strong after 8-10 years. In fact, PG2 is more popular today, and has more campaigns and people playing them, than ever before.

The wargame genre isn't dying; it's just that few wargame companies in the past were as responsive as Matrix is today. Just take a look at all the games Matrix is working on

[Pippin]

SSI hit the gold-mine for Panzer General that is for sure. But after version II, for some reason they just let it all go downhill to shit.

As for Talonsoft, they deserved to die, and let me tell you some tid-bits on why..

Norm was wanting to do some more tweaks to the TOAW when it had been out for a while, and also have more patches made, unfortunately Talonsoft refused and kept the code locked in the safe. Oddly enough, they finaly did make a fix (direct X fix), but they were somewhat forced too. You see, TOAW had a tendancy to self-uninstall itself right after install. You guys remember that one? Yah, pretty bad.

Shame they also didnt fix the NT CD issue. What a surprise it is for people who try to install TOAW and they get the error that TOAW is a non NT compatible cd! Sheesh! And yes, this even occures on non-NT workstations.

But wait, it gets even better.... For the person who is total confused as to what is going on with these issues, and tries to research the Talonsoft forums, GOOD LUCK! For many weeks on end, (months) the forums would be down, offline. Accounting problems, and problems finding a new forum company to host, etc.. more piss poor management.. Lets just say, you were LUCKY to see the proper TOAW forum running.

Ironicaly, when they did go back up a few times, you could see some posts debating if Talonsoft was PURPOSELY trying to go bankrupt.

Add in the fact that Talonsoft then decided suddenly they would spend most their efforts on jumping into the 3D bandwagon like everyone else... BAD IDEA! Went from a perfect market to one flooded with competitors.

Oh, and btw, none of this has to do with any bias due to Talonsoft screwing over Matrix Games on the Napoleon Era wargame a while back.

I think i'll pause the list here, but feel free to add any anti-Talonsoft tid-bids, hehe.

[*Lava*]

Hi!

Interesting Pippin, any idea why they never released the code to TOAW (or did I miss something)?

This is a game which serious modders would have a field day with.

Ray (alias Lava)

[Didz]

I Think the real breakthrough in computer wargaming will be when they begin to produce the 'You are there' style of wargame, or perhaps a more apt classification would be the Commander and Control Roleplaying Game.

In theory this ought to be possible now by combining concepts from CRPG, FSEU and CWG's.

The basic arrangement being a high quailty graphic roleplaying game where the player roleplays the commander of the forces involved, can issue commands to sub-ordinates etc. Wnder into and out of his command tent at will to look at maps, listen to reports etc. but can also ride with his troops into battle if desired and witness the action.

These are the sort of game I now favour to play when I play moderated Napoleonic's and ought to be the target for computer wargames in my opinion.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Didz, has raised one of my comments I have made a few times.

We can roleplay virtually anything out there, but an actual genuine real world military situation. Or more precisely, a military situation from the popular time periods.

I don't mind commanding Rommel's forces, but it would be neat to actually roleplay out "being" Rommel himself. Well not exactly Rommel maybe, but be put in his same shoes as it were.

To my knowledge, that sort of game doesn't yet exist.

To those beating up on SSI and Talonsoft, I guess I missed all the details.
To me, SSI and Talonsoft are just the names I would expect to find on all the past best wargames ever made for computer (my opinion).
That the companies are no longer there, and the reasons why, are mostly just stuff I hear about second hand.
But I have seen other companies come and go. Some for good reason, some because life has no garantees.
I have seen some companies just asking to become ex companies.

I remember that little bug in The Operational Art of War Elite Edition Volume 1 (in my case). Yes it was quite annoying to sit and watch the game install, and the second it was done, poof no game. It was easy to fix, when you knew what to fix. But not knowing what to fix, would make the game quite worthless.
And you can bet, if I had never had that fixed, I would not now also own any other Talonsoft products. That one little fix allowed me to get TOAW 2 and then I decided to get TOAW CoW as well. Plus I bought the Campaign series.
I realise that Talonsoft made other titles, but I didn't grab those.

SSI was to me, originally Steel Panthers. But I have seen that label on more games than I can recall.

But having a label on countless titles didn't help Avalon Hill survive bad choices/conditions either.
Success is only acheived when you make as few mistakes as possible.

[Didz]

The problem with Talonsoft and SSI in my opinion is that they never rose above the initial Computer Boardgame concept of wargaming.

Before computers Wargaming had nothing to do with boardgames and centred on tabletop miniatures.

Computer boardgames just can't compete for sales with CRGP's and RTS computers games and what needs to happen to bringing wargaming back into competition with those genre's is a complete change of approach to computer wargaming which dumps the hex grid and cardboard counter style and expliots the computer to provide a real Command and Control experience.

As I say, I have played such games using Talonsoft wargames as a backbone but with the gameplot overlaid with a roleplay system maintained by a human moderator. I actually played Napoleon in the Eylau campaign and Bagration in the 1812 campaign.

The highlight of the 1812 campaign for me was a battle to prevent the French securing a vital river bridge. The French had built a redoubt on the Russian side of the river protecting their bridgehead which my Division was order to take. I didn't agree with my superiors plan for this but the player in charge insisted so. Having massed my chosen regiment for the assault I decided it only fair that I lead them personally in the charge. I gave them a stirring speech something along the lines of 'Its a shitty job but someone's got to do it, and to prove I have faith in you I shall lead you myself to glory.' Waited for the mandatory cheer. Dismounted from my horse handed the reins to my ADC, drew my sword with a flourish and threw away the scabbard as a gesture of commitment then led the regiment over the walls of the redoubt and in with bayonet.

I must admit I expected the moderator to inform me that Bagration was dead and my regiment decimated and so I was really surprised to be told that the French were either in a panicked flight back over the bridge or throwing down their weapons and begging for mercy.

It appears that by pure chance my assault coincided with the French players decision to redeploy the redoubts garrison and we had gone over the walls to find the garrison in mid-transition and with their back to us. Creating total chaos in seconds.

Spent the next half-an-hour of game time accepting French officers swords and parading around with their captured Eagle and then I had to wander off to try and find my ADC who still had my horse, and the scabbard to my sword[;)]

Nevertheless, it was a glorious moment that has been retold many times with suitable embellishments.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Before computers Wargaming had nothing to do with boardgames and centred on tabletop miniatures.

That comment is way out to lunch Didz hehe.

True before board games you only had table top miniatures. But I seem to recall something like 20-30 years worth of extremely noticable board gaming before the personal computer became a useful enough device to a useful enough amount of people that it became more numerous than board games.

Number of people I personally know playing table top miniatures right now ZERO.

Number of people I have ever known to play table top miniatures, ever, less than 5.

Looking like a board game is not the end of the world.
But I will admit, not making full use of a modern computers computing power is a bad idea.
Only using the computers computing power for a visual perk though is as bad as any other bad decision though.

The power of my computer's hardware should be about more than just processing graphics. I want more than graphics, for the same reason people want the graphics themselves. There is more to a wargame than just the one element.

If you gave me a fully interactive wargame, with an AI that actually thought, but made it only text based interaction, I would not play that either. A wargame is more than just interaction with an AI.

Like the formula for tank design Firepower, protection, mobility, a wargame needs to combine properly playable, credible, visual in the right proportions, or you don't have a success.
You can't swing to far in any one of those three at the expense of the other, and expect to get anywhere.

I think HTTR is for instance beginning to get the balance fixed.
Looks like a wargame, plays in real time, is visually appealing.

I think the future looks bright for that game system.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Before computers Wargaming had nothing to do with boardgames and centred on tabletop miniatures.

That comment is way out to lunch Didz hehe.

True before board games you only had table top miniatures. But I seem to recall something like 20-30 years worth of extremely noticable board gaming before the personal computer became a useful enough device to a useful enough amount of people that it became more numerous than board games.

Well I can't comment about Wargaming in Canada but here in the UK there was always a distinct difference between Wargames and Boardgames. They were two seperate hobbies attracting quite different players. It was only the computer that caused the boardgame to be reclassified as a Wargame when the first computer boardgames appeared on the shelves.

Traditional wargaming was not affected by the rise of computer gaming what crippled the hobby was the appearance of Fantasy Gaming and the rise of companies like Games Workshop who flooded the market with new exciting fictional games.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a huge untapped market of wargamers out there who are not interested in computerised boardgames but would be interested in computerised wargaming if it reflected the traditional tabletop style or imporved upon it. Boardgamers were always in the minority and so one must assume that for every person playing computerised boardgaming today there ought to be several potential computer wargamers who would be attracted to that style of game if it were produced.

These people are probably playiing games like Medieval Totalwar, Medal of Honour and even Warcraft3 at present but would be interested in a well written Napoleonic or WW2 Wargame. As I say the frustrating thing is that such a wargame is actually feasible but that wargame design companies don't seem to have the vision or skill to produce it.

I produced a overall design for a Napoloenic Tactical game a couple of years ago which merely brought together concepts from several existing games on the market to produce a complete first person commmand and control system for Napoleonic wargames but it was too radical a shift from hex grids for anyone to take serious. Since then some of these idea's have been incorporated into Combat Mission but there is still a lot that can be done to attract wargamers back to the hobby by this sort of game.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I think HTTR is for instance beginning to get the balance fixed.
Looks like a wargame, plays in real time, is visually appealing.

I can't comment on HTTR as I don't even know what it is.

But I would caution against any company attempting to produce a real time wargame.

The single most important feature in the success of any computer wargame is the ability to play with and against other human players. As recent wargames like Shogun Totalwar and Medieval Totalwar have shown it simply isn't feasible to play a full scale tactical wargame, let alone a campaign over the internet against other players in real time. It is the absence of that ability which prevented Creative Assemblies efforts being truly awesome.

The trick must therefore be to produce a wargame which can be played by multiple players working as a team on in opposition, which includes the visual appeal of a wargame whilst capable of being run as a PBEM.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Didz

I Think the real breakthrough in computer wargaming will be when they begin to produce the 'You are there' style of wargame, or perhaps a more apt classification would be the Commander and Control Roleplaying Game.

In theory this ought to be possible now by combining concepts from CRPG, FSEU and CWG's.

The basic arrangement being a high quailty graphic roleplaying game where the player roleplays the commander of the forces involved, can issue commands to sub-ordinates etc. Wnder into and out of his command tent at will to look at maps, listen to reports etc. but can also ride with his troops into battle if desired and witness the action.

These are the sort of game I now favour to play when I play moderated Napoleonic's and ought to be the target for computer wargames in my opinion.

That is a great story. So you are saying you meet in person for these team Napoleonic games..or is it handled live on-line or by PBEM?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Clearly an interesting difference occuring here

Didz living in the UK has clearly grown up with totally differing environments to what I have experienced.

In Canada (and maybe the US too I suppose), the miniatures scene has (to my knowledge) never been really what appears as commonplace to Didz.
Which only makes our conversation here intriguing for the regional insights.

HTTR is Highway to the Reich by the way (I erred thinking all Matrix Games forum members would recognise that, my goof ). It is currently one of their better products.

http://www.highwaytothereich.com/

Here in Canada, wargaming has always meant pushing cardboard around for the most part. Being called a wargamer meant you liked games like Squad Leader Panzerblitz Third Reich basically Avalon Hill or SPI etc.
Might be that we here in the colonies don't have the old world background of playing with miniature hehe

I know of GDW, and frankly think their stuff is over priced lousy crappola. But that is what the public knows of miniatures gaming (at least that is the limit of all I have ever seen on sale in Canada).
Good luck finding Napoleonics miniatures on sale in Canada. You will likely end up on the internet before you see them on a store shelf in Canada.

I have seen the GDW ala fantasy style miniatures sort of computer game incidentally.
I even have demos of two of them.
Not to bad, but look like any other RTS design for the most part.

I own a 4 x 8 foot dining table only because I made an attempt at miniatures gaming. When it became clear the guys were not actually serious, I took it back to my work shop and turned it from a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood, into something presentable as a dinner table.
Handy for serving large crowds though

While you lament board games stealign away real wargamers (god I find that funny I hope you don't mind), here in Canada, we would say it was those damnable rolegames we liked to hate during the 70s and 80s that distracted an increasing number of board gamers (which we called real wargamers) from what was our idea of the true wargaming.

Rolegaming interestingly, grew out of table top miniatures gaming (kind of an interesting sort of irony eh).

"But I would caution against any company attempting to produce a real time wargame."

That has to be ultimately humourous all things considered hehe.
I am well known for my bitching about REAL Time Strategy games pretending to wear the label "war"game hehe
But in spite of how I hate them, RTS is what sells the big sales.

Of course some of it is semantics.
Highway to the Reich is indeed a real time wargame, and it looks set to really become a powerful new direction in gaming out military actions.

Multi player wargames must be possible, they do it for almost everything else.