HELP, Jap aircraft

[Lemurs!]

Nikademus,

I don't agree with the US carriers using model 3 wildcats having armour later as only 41 seem to have been retrofitted.

As a small aside, it seems many American Wildcat pilots were upset with the lack of performance on the model 4. So they had their mechanics remove 2 of the .50cals to lower the combat weight.
I have no idea of how many did this but i think it is an interesting little bit.

17mm (not 12mm) was fairly standard for seat back and floor armour.
I just looked up the Il2 out of curiosity and it did only have 12mm of armour thickness but of course it covered a larger area.

The Bell aviation company felt that a .30 round was only likely to penetrate 6mm of armour while the .50 round could penetrate 17-18mm. But, they felt that the skin of the aircraft would change the ballistic pattern enough that it would deflect or gouge the steel, not penetrate.
Keeps the pilot alive but probably cuts up control cables.

Mike

[Brady]

Lemurs, check out this thread:

tm.asp?m=556199

[tigercub]

just a note for you guys!
JUST THE FACTS WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTERS
THE FIGHTER THAT SHOT THE DOWN THE MOST PLANES IN ALL HISTORY IS THE ME109!!! OVER 20,000 KILLS JG52 HAD 10,000 ALONE!
MAY HAVE NOT BEEN THE BEST PISTON ENGINE FIGHTER OF WW2{ME109K14 455MPH! } BUT IT DID HAVE
THE BEST PILOTS FLYING THEM FOR A LONG PART OF THE WAR UNTILL THEY WERE KILLED.
JUST A NOTE NOT MANY OF GERMANYS TOP PILOTS FEW THE FW190
LEFT TO THE NEW BOYS EASYER TA FLY
LEARNING IN A 109 WAS NOT THAT MUCH FUN BUT WHEN YOU MASTERED IT LOOK OUT!!

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Nikademus,

You still have not seem to have checked any sources. Go to NARA and read the translations of the Japanese carrier manuals describing loadout, aircraft operations etc.
There is actually a piece of one of the translations floating around the internet for the Shokakus.

Hi Mike

I've checked out numerous sources, including those that document actual battles fought. If you can show that the Val squadrons all went into naval actions always armed with 1 x 250 and 2 x 60.....particularily during the four major pivitol carrier battles of the war, feel free to post the data.

Nikademus,

I don't agree with the US carriers using model 3 wildcats having armour later as only 41 seem to have been retrofitted.

As a small aside, it seems many American Wildcat pilots were upset with the lack of performance on the model 4. So they had their mechanics remove 2 of the .50cals to lower the combat weight.
I have no idea of how many did this but i think it is an interesting little bit.

Reference Vol I, John Lundstrom, "The First Team" He provides pretty specific documentation regarding the evolution of the F4F-3 and F4F-3A. While the overall #'s may be small....that was pretty much the deployment strength of the -3 and -3A varient in the Pacific so again you are faced with the "big picture" in terms of it's relation with the WitP model. Enough retrofitted Wildcats fought in Coral Sea and Midway to justify the current OOB values.

I've read of the pilot complaints on the F4F-4 and a valid argument can be made on the merits of the 4xgun F4F vs the 6xgun F4F due to ammunition supply issues. However i've not read any source that cites a mass removal of 2 .50 cal weapons from the -4 model....not on the carriers and not over Guadalcanal.

Again if you have any data on this, please feel free to post it. I would like to examine it.

[Lemurs!]

Nikademus,

If you have any data to show that the Japanese did not follow their operational manuals and go into battle with only a single bomb feel free to show them.
Until then i will believe the plethora of Japanese manuals.
Brady has already quoted Pear Harbour usage. I have not heard anything from you.
[:)]

On the 4 vs 6 machine guns no, I don't have any hard figures. I was hoping you did! It was just anecdotes in the -thints and in various other sources. No numbers. [:(]

I know that at Coral Sea the Japanese did not fly with wing bombs but that was due to range not operational procedure. You can not use 'evidence' like that to make a case.

Also, on model 3 armour you are saying that even though less than 1 in 6 model 3's received that armour we should give the model 3 armour because the HISTORICAL battles of Midway & Coral sea included the armoured planes. But that was in the real world. We are not playing that. What happens if the main carrier battle is on April 1st before the armour kits get installed?
No, i am going to change it to unarmoured.

Mike

[Rainerle]

Hi,
I want to stress 1 point here (but I think people said so before)
The responsibility of cracking the japanese industry is the players job, not the game .exe/database etc.
This means that all late japanese planes should have stats reflecting no industry damage has ever been done. And then the allied player has to make sure that none of those 'perfect world' aircraft's are ever build (or only as few as his bombers permit).

Lemurs!:
Since you mentioned BTR: Wasn't the P-38 subject to altitude penalty in BTR ?
I don't think she is in UV ?

[kafka]

Hi, Lemurs!

Where will you make your mod available, I'd try it out.

Thank you [&o]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Nikademus,

If you have any data to show that the Japanese did not follow their operational manuals and go into battle with only a single bomb feel free to show them.
Until then i will believe the plethora of Japanese manuals.
Brady has already quoted Pear Harbour usage. I have not heard anything from you.
[:)]

Mike,

Since you've answered my querry by avoiding it, I'll take it then that you do not have any reference that shows the Japanese using these weapons at Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern Solomons or Santa Cruz, or in the Indian ocean against Cunningham's forces. IIRC, Brady's "reference" at Pearl Harbor consisted of an eyewitness who "thought" he saw a Val drop quote "a couple of bombs", which doesn't sound to me like a 1 x 250 + 2 x 60kg loadout.

On the 4 vs 6 machine guns no, I don't have any hard figures. I was hoping you did! It was just anecdotes in the -thints and in various other sources. No numbers. [:(]

Please re-read my post.....you'll see that i did.

I know that at Coral Sea the Japanese did not fly with wing bombs but..

Or at Midway, Santa Cruz, Eastern Solomons or any other naval engagement i've researched. Thanks.

Also, on model 3 armour you are saying that even though less than 1 in 6 model 3's received that armour we should give the model 3 armour because the HISTORICAL battles of Midway & Coral sea included the armoured planes. But that was in the real world. We are not playing that. What happens if the main carrier battle is on April 1st before the armour kits get installed?
No, i am going to change it to unarmoured.

I am saying that all the F4F-3's that went into battle as of Coral Sea, May 1942, received their armor and self sealing fuel tanks. If you dont wish to believe this, you are indeed free to use the editor. Thats why it's there. Enjoy!

[Damien Thorn]

Why is there a debate about D3A bombload now? I'm sure the loadout will be the same as in UV (1x250 + 2x60 at normal range and 1x250 at extended range).

While on the subject of bombloads I've heard that the B5N will have the 800 kg bomb for short range port attacks but will we be able to for them to use bombs for a mission rather than torpedoes? It would be nice for those missions where we want to reduce losses. One way of codingthis would be based on flight altitude. If flying at an odd number of thouseands of feet you would use torpedoes. Even number would use bombs. I think that would be simple to code and not require any interface changes.

[Nikademus]

Damien,

The 800kg bomb is not selectable for specific missions. It's hard coded into the attack routines whenever the Japanese player selects "port attack" for either his B5N, G3M or G4M airgroups.

They will attack the port with a mixture of 800kg and torpedoes, the exact ratio is determined by the game and wont always be the same. As most know this too was the subject of an extremely long debate and i acknowledge not everyone was happy with the decision.

USN torpedo groups use the same routine when attacking ports but dont have the 800kg weapon.

[Lemurs!]

Hello,

Yea, the P38F/G had problems keeping its Allisons cool above 20,000 feet so the pilots were told never to go above 70% power.
They fixed the problem at the tail end of the 'G' batch which led to the 'h' and the definitive 'j'.

Rainerle,
Exactly! A simulation will never have value if you put in your preconceived notions.

Kafka,
I started working on this in '94 or so. I think i can have the base fix out within a day or two of me downloading this game.

My 2 alternate scenarios (which will be SLIGHT changes, not crazy stuff) i hope to have out before i have to leave for California
on the 15th of July.

Another example of a silly screw-up; In BTR the P51D is better than the B and it is the same in this game. However, the B/C flew at 440/439mph and was more maneuverable while the D flew at 437mph. Not much difference but the Mustang B always gets dumped on.

Someone asked earlier about P51 use in the Pacific; The B was only used in the CBI from late '43 while the D was the version used escorting B29s to Japan late in the war.

Mike

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Production defects and such have always been, IMHO, unfair given that most of these quaint little firefights seen here blur the issue because they pass between "could the Frank make a difference" in which case quality control and fuel issues are extremely relevant (as is the issue of pilot proficiency ) and "was the Frank a good enough design" in which case talk about quality control, pilots and fuel are unfair elements in said discussion.

NICK I don't quite understand this argument. Sounds as if you are saying that if the
design was good, it shouldn't matter that Japanese Industry lacked the tools, techniques,
skilled labor and wherewithall to manufacture it to specs. At least not in a production
line setting. I'm not talking bomb damage, I'm talking a basic weakness in the Indus-
trial base itself. It simply wasn't broad enough, deep enough, or well-supported enough
to handle mass-production of high-tolerance machining and metalurgy. A great design
is only as good as it's construction..., and in Japan's case that was a major stumbling
block.

[Brady]

To be fair hear the Use of the 60 KG bombs by Vals at pearl was proven to be bunk, the source qouted was not corect, I was able to find Japanese source that listed load outs and they did not use them their, Kates did howeaver use 60 KG bombs during the pearl harbor atack aganst the airfields.


"I've checked out numerous sources, including those that document actual battles fought. If you can show that the Val squadrons all went into naval actions always armed with 1 x 250 and 2 x 60.....particularily during the four major pivitol carrier battles of the war, feel free to post the data. "

Thier is I beleave you will find again almost certain evidance of their being used in at least one instance aganst a CV it is in the middle of all those postings on that long thread, that and lots of pictures ect, but this is all mute at present I do beleave the battle lost at this point.

[Feinder]

"My nerd panis is bigger than your nerd panis!"

(* sigh *)
-F-



** EDIT - My post meant purely to bring some of y'all back into perspective. Interesting thread, lots of good info here, but please to try and mitigate the blatant quibbling. It actually undermines the quality (and even the credability) of the thread. You may now resume your regulaly scheduled posting. This interruption brought to by the makers of Guano-Goo, soon to be America's favorite high protein suppliment. Now in spreadable paste form!

[Mr.Frag]

USN torpedo groups use the same routine when attacking ports but dont have the 800kg weapon.

Thats because they have a very effective 1000 lb bomb that penetrates anything Japan has. They don't need an 800kg weapon. [:D]

[Nikademus]

actually i think the TBD/F's use 500LB GP for Port attack. The SBD's of course use their standard or extended loadouts 100% when attacking ports.

[Lemurs!]

Nik, you have still not given me anything but anecdotal evidence!
I have documents that say it was standard Japanese practice for standard range carrier strikes to use 3 bombs on the Val, while you say in a bunch of books on the battles no one mentions them.

Well, i have probably read some of the same books and i don't remember any of them saying anything one way or another!
That is not conclusive proof and i consider pretty weak.

And, again, i already said the Japanese did not use them at Coral Sea. But that was an extended range strike.

"9 April ZUIKAKU launches 14 Val bombers and 6 fighters against HERMES.
The Vals score 13 hits, 9 of which are known to be 250Kg."

What were the other 4, spitballs?

Mike

[Mr.Frag]

I have documents that say it was standard Japanese practice for standard range carrier strikes to use 3 bombs on the Val, while you say in a bunch of books on the battles no one mentions them

Simple answer:

WitP has two ranges: Normal and Extreme.

There is no "Short" range that would allow extra load in place of fuel. Be happy with this as if you want a "short" range, it will apply to *both* sides, not just your Val. Wonder how many bombs you can stick on a B-29 for a short range attack?

[Nikademus]

Mike,

All you've stated, is that you have read an alleged Japanese "manual" which allegedly states that the Val always attacks naval targets with the 3 bomb loadout. We have only your "word" for this. This is not "factual" evidence

Having hashed this out in the past, and having researched the battles in which the D3A has participated i have stated that the bomb was not used. I asked you if you had evidence that the bomb was used. Shores, Lundstrom, Frank, Bergerud, Forty, Pettie etc etc none of them show it.

In reply all you've sated is either "Nik, you havn't shown any evidence" (yeah ....i have), or "Nik, your evidence is not valid"

I'll ask you one last time Mike and then again.....i'm done on the subject. Show me conclusive evidence that this loadout was used in the manner i requested the majority of the time if not all the time. You have admitted that they were not used at Coral Sea......that leaves the other major engagements. Lets see it. My study of Japanese doctrine indicates that 60kg was used primary by land based D3A when attacking land targets the typical loadout being, 2 x 60kg only.

[Lemurs!]

Frag,

That still is missing the point.... <pulls hair out>

The normal range load on the Val was 370Kg.
The extended bomb load was 250Kg or occasionaly 240Kg or 120Kg.
The short bomb load was (1) 500kg bomb.

As far as i know the 500kg was only used against ground targets.
The Judy could also carry the 500kg bomb for short range.

Mike