Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Oznoyng
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Oznoyng »

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Another point for Aircraft-Research
someone mentioned that it is "unhistorical" to research only the "good" planes...

hm, but on the other hand, same is true in any game about a war...

as the allied, you know the key locations... do you act exactly like the historical counterparts ? Or the use of planes...? Minewar, etc....

Also, don´t forget that the japanese developted most planes much earlier as they used em, the ki44 is a good example...

I agree, that the allies should also got more chances to produce different planes. Esp. the spits are way to inferior and my personel view about the spit xvi compared to the corsair is, err, different. In 100 fights of equal pilots 90 spits should survive... but that is a personell view i can change in an ai-game quite easy [:'(]

My dream is that you do not know the performance of the planes you develop, they can vary and you only say "develop a new fighter" use 100 planes worth of equippment (to show the consumption) and voila, sometimes you get a p38g, sometimes not... (later they will come, at correct time table, but to improve the planes, you need to wait until they come into service or develop blindly...)
so no cheating, no bashing about unhistorical sifi-games... the player has to make decisions and sometimes they are worth the "money" and sometimes not... every game a different result (but sure, for the eto the germans can´t develop a battle ready me262 earlier as late43... but maybe cause they develop so much, they can start with 150% of the production ? But for that, they hadn´t produced 2 years long each month 100 me109 less, for example...

so, this is my idea of the solution of the problem we have with hindsight...

even better, if you do not research, you can produce only a few planes (if you wait for the p38, do not develop here and get only 5 planes a month you are p!ssed off !. take just the raw idea

I have been toying with a different research design, but it opens up a whole can of worms that I doubt GG and Co would want to open. It would cross the line from historical simulation to what some would term fantasy. The intent would be to mimic the way that planes were developed and result in historically plausible results, but not exactly reproduce them. In my system, any aircraft developed after scenario start would be fictional and somewhat random. The A7M2 might turn out to be a dud - or it could turn out better than it was.

Essentially, I would add Research and Development Centers. The ability to expand the number of centers would be restricted (more so for Japan than for the US). Each research center would have affinity's for different types of technology. Development centers would develop new aircraft and ship systems. As a player, I would issue requirements to the design centers telling them what I wanted and by when I wanted it. Based upon the quality of the design center, the health of the economy in general, the length of time involved and the technology demonstrated by the enemy, an aircraft would be available on or about the date requested. It more than likely would not meet the requirements (depending upon how ambitious they were), but might be better in some categories.

Using this methodology, the design group that designed the H8K Emily might reasonably be asked to develop a speedy, long range, 4 engine bomber for Japan. As for how long it took and how durable it was... On the other hand, asking the Zero's development team to develop a bomber would be a mistake - designs originating out of this group would be likely to be highly manuverable and long range, but somewhat lacking in speed and firepower. Once an acceptable design was developed, it would be moved to a factory capable of producing it, and production would be retooled (taking longer than it currently does). It would then be moved to a squadron where the squadron would develop experience in that type.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

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ORIGINAL: Brady

WoW , many of the changes sound good to be shure, though of course I suspect I could defenatly see making more, it is an very nice start, whear can this be found at?

Also, While I keep seeing TBO refered to I noticed that the figures given do not refelct the numbers historicaly produced, so my question is whow is TBO arived at?

The Mod can be found at Spooky's UV Site http://mathubert.free.fr/main_content.htm

Right now it is in a state of repair as one of the Ship class mod's affected a ship in the KB at game start. Pry investigated it and found that that change was causing the KB not act correctly on turn 1 as it caused a range/movement issue. I'm sure Lemurs will have it worked out ASAP, but for now I am holding off.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

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ORIGINAL: brisd

I think it great that Mike (Lemurs) and others are doing scenarios to improve on an already great job by the designers. But what I really care about are changes to the official scenarios as that is what most people will play vs each other to ensure honesty. Don't want the world just historic upgrades.

This is just a start. If you like what Lemurs is doing, spread the word. Once everyone hears about it and sees the value in Lemurs work we may find that Scen 26 in WitP becomes very much like the official Scen 19 in UV. The more people hear about this mod the more likely you will find someone to play PBEM.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Drongo

There may then be a problem with keeping the A6M2 in production as last time I looked, aircraft assemblies will always attempt to auto-upgrade once the next upgrade aircraft becomes available.

If the A6M2 now upgrades to the A6M3, all the A6M2 factories will start switching over as of 4/42 and I don't think you can stop it.

That is not good. I hope if it is true it will be fixed. Not because I would necessarily continue to produce A6M2's, but because it would give us the option.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Oznoyng »

I do not like the auto upgrade of factories very much. For some upgrades, it makes sense to do this. For others, it doesn't. Upgrading from an A6M2 to an A6M3 to an A6M5 should be relatively painless. Converting to a Reppu should be more painful. In all cases, I would prefer to have the option. Left to my own devices, I would continue to produce the Ki59 instead of the Ki54.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Brady

CC, this is what I thought as well, but what I am woundering is how they arived at the figure they use for TBO, as an example above some whear in this post I saw a TBO figure for the George at around 400 or so, when their were well aprox. 1,500 (or so) of this plane type built (in WiTP the George is generic, representing both the N1K1 and the N1K2).

To leave out the N1K1 and use a generic model of the N1K2 is unfair for the IJN. Granted the N1K2 is a better plane but time is what reallt hurts the IJ player. If we are modelling multiple models of the P-40, P39, P-38, P51, F4F, this list goes on and on...We SHOULD be modelling the various important new Japanese models. Regardles of historical TBO.

As it stands now in this game, The George without changing R&D, arrives roughly when the N1K2 Shiden-KAI did. That is approximately 6 months to a year after the 343rd Kokutai historically got the N1K1 for ops in the PI!

This is something I have asked Lemurs to fix. In addition I asked that all the A6M upgrade path for land-based units go through the George on its way to the Shinden. Why? Because that is how it would have happened

Brady, I also asked if the Tabby could be added. Should be pretty easy. Just need to find the Side art for it.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

The Hickory is a joke in terms of "upgrade". As for the Judy and Jill, they are definately upgrades IMO. There are four important characteristics of a bomber imo: Speed, Speed, Speed, and Speed. Er..... Actually, Speed, Range, Bombload, and Durability/armor.

1. Speed because the CAP's ability to shoot down a bomber is directly related to how fast the bomber is.
2. Range because you need to be able to fly to the target
3. Bombload because if you can't do any damage then what is the point?
4. Durability/armor because the more you have, the more flak you can absorb before getting shot down.

The Jill adds 64 MPH, 1 durability, and 1 more range over the Kate. Of those, the biggest imo is the speed, but I definately plan to build the Jill.

The Judy adds 103 MPH! and a bit of range, while losing a bit of durability and some bombload. When it comes to air combat in WitP, speed kills. IMO, the difference between a Judy and a Val in terms of ability to evade damage is more than big enough to want the Judy.

Has anyone playtested with the Judy vs. the Val against say a US CV fleet to see if it's surviviability is better?

You would want to use relatively experinced pilots simulating that you managed to preserve you pilot pool til TF 58 came knocking.

You'd want to even the odds as far as escorts(maybe use A6M8s or A7Ms), number of CV in each TF etc. Basically generate a fictional fair fight say in Late 43' early 44' with capabale japanese airgroup against a default US airgroup. Even test the extreme's by using a less experienced (read "DUMB") US airgroup, and see if the results improved dramatically. If the Judy's were carved out of the sky by inexperienced US CAGs then the Judy might be a dud, at least in the game.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Drongo »

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
There are four important characteristics of a bomber imo: Speed, Speed, Speed, and Speed. Er..... Actually, Speed, Range, Bombload, and Durability/armor.

1. Speed because the CAP's ability to shoot down a bomber is directly related to how fast the bomber is.
2. Range because you need to be able to fly to the target
3. Bombload because if you can't do any damage then what is the point?
4. Durability/armor because the more you have, the more flak you can absorb before getting shot down.

Have you actually tested how much impact bomber speed has vs CAP? The last time I did during the beta, I found it was not a major factor in bomber survivability when intercepted by fighters.

The test involved comparing strike losses to CAP between those involving Vals and then others involving Judys.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by esteban »

ORIGINAL: Drongo
ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
There are four important characteristics of a bomber imo: Speed, Speed, Speed, and Speed. Er..... Actually, Speed, Range, Bombload, and Durability/armor.

1. Speed because the CAP's ability to shoot down a bomber is directly related to how fast the bomber is.
2. Range because you need to be able to fly to the target
3. Bombload because if you can't do any damage then what is the point?
4. Durability/armor because the more you have, the more flak you can absorb before getting shot down.

Have you actually tested how much impact bomber speed has vs CAP? The last time I did during the beta, I found it was not a major factor in bomber survivability when intercepted by fighters.

The test involved comparing strike losses to CAP between those involving Vals and then others involving Judys.

I've never had this experience, where faster bombers get shot down much less than slower ones. As far as I know, the only question is whether the intercepting fighters will try to dogfight versus using slashing attacks.

The greater payload on the Val doesn't seem to matter, either. The Val no longer drops 60 kg bombs as a part of it's normal range loadout. Both the Val and the Judy are in the plane database as carrying a single 250kg bomb as both their normal and extended range payload. I haven't played WITP with judys yet, but I know that Vals do not drop 60 KG bombs anymore.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Oznoyng »

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Has anyone playtested with the Judy vs. the Val against say a US CV fleet to see if it's surviviability is better?

You would want to use relatively experinced pilots simulating that you managed to preserve you pilot pool til TF 58 came knocking.

You'd want to even the odds as far as escorts(maybe use A6M8s or A7Ms), number of CV in each TF etc. Basically generate a fictional fair fight say in Late 43' early 44' with capabale japanese airgroup against a default US airgroup. Even test the extreme's by using a less experienced (read "DUMB") US airgroup, and see if the results improved dramatically. If the Judy's were carved out of the sky by inexperienced US CAGs then the Judy might be a dud, at least in the game.
Afaik, no, they haven't. However, what has been made abundantly clear is that a fast plane is better than a slow one, as it is one of the primary factors in air combat.

Think about it this way. CIC on Essex establishes a radar contact at 85 miles out. F6F's on CAP rocket toward the contact at 380mph. Ready aircraft on the Essex take off and climb to altitude for intercept leakers. Compare the Val to the Judy:

The Val cruises at 184 and maxes at 240. At cruise, a flight of D4Y Judy's will get to the carrier in 19 minutes. The closing rate for the F6F's on the Val is 564 mph. At 57 miles out, the F6F's make contact with the vals, who go to full power and close on the carriers. It will take them another 14 minutes to reach the carriers. Along the way, the Hellcats enjoy a 140 mph speed advantage over the Vals, making harder targets for the Val's rear gunners and allowing the Helcats to savage the group at their leisure.

Now, the Judy. The Judy cruises at 265 mph and maxes out at 343 mph. The closure rate for the Judy group is 645 mph and they make contact at 50 miles out. They go to full power and close the CV's at 343 mph. They need to survive 9 minutes to get a chance to attack. 5 minutes less. The Hellcats have a tougher job. Each boom and zoom takes longer to setup, because they only enjoy a 37 mph speed advantage. The Judy's rear gunner has an easier target to make the F6F's attack riskier (and therefore less likely to succeed).

Which is the better bomber?
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Brady »

TY everyone who answered my questions above...


The N1K2 and the N1K1, were prety much identical preformance wise so in this case I realy dont see a nead to split hairs on the modeles in the game, Howeaver the entry date isue is a big one imo.


.................

Has anyone modified the Judy to schlep a 500KG bomload for short range mishions, as noted above this load was used operationaly.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by TheElf »

Brady,
Let me start by saying I think you are right. I am not trying to start a debate about the Shiden vs. the Shiden KAI. I hear what you are saying, about their performance similarities and I hear you agreeing on the arrival date issue. This info is just to create discussion.

I feel that there are some game aspects that the following paragraphs can amplify, and not necessarily just performance attributes. Again I feel that if multiple Allied A/C with similar performance stats can be modelled, then so should the Japanese. I don't really think that making the distinction will win the war for the Japanese, but it will satisfy the grognard in me. I'm sure i am not the only one who feels this way.

I have made notes where game mechanics/attributes might be mod'd to provide more depth.... I have not given values to any of the game aspects as that will have to come later. I also acknowledge that the differences between models may not warrant large differences in game attributes. I am not suggesting that ALL of these sub-variants be modelled. In fact I really only think the Shiden and Shiden-KAI are necessary.

"The 341st Kokutai (Air Group) was the first Shiden-equipped unit. the 341st was ordered to the Philippine combat zone in August 1944. In actual combat, the Shiden, code-named George by the Allies, was an excellent fighter, particularly in the hands of a veteran, and was quickly recognized by the Allies as one of the best Japanese aircraft so far encountered. It was not too fast, but it was maneuverable, well armed, and harder to destroy than the Zero due to its stronger overall construction and its having proper armor plate and self-sealing fuel tanks. The 341st fought until it was totally destroyed in January 1945, some of its last planes being expended in ad hoc kamikaze attacks. "


The N1K1-J Shiden Model 11, with the original armament,(two long-barreled 20mm cannon inside the wings, and two more cannon in underwing gondolas, in addition to the twin 7.7mm fuselage-mounted machine guns. The extra drag of the gondolas was deemed acceptable, as more firepower was being demanded by the Navy fighter pilots at the front) was the main production variant, but three other versions of the original Shiden were also built, differing solely in armament.The Benchmark attributes for the Shiden it is going to be draggier than the KAI

"The N1K1-Ja Model 11a had the rifle-caliber fuselage guns deleted, to lighten the aircraft, and also had a revised wing structure allowing all four 20mm cannon to be installed in the wings, thus getting rid of the gondolas and slightly increasing speed. Higher MAN/SPEED"

"The N1K1-Jb Model 11b had wing racks, stressed to allow a single 551-lb. bomb to be carried under each wing, and the N1K1-Jc Model 11c had two such racks, allowing a total bomb load of four 551-lb. bombs, plus an 88-gallon drop tank under the fuselage. This specialized fighter-bomber version was the most formidable such aircraft Japan ever built, but was never available in any but minute quantities. " Fighter Bomber-class

An N1K1-J-KAI version for suicide attacks was proposed, with a booster rocket under the fuselage, but was never built, because the Japanese Navy realized that Shidens for normal operations were more pressingly needed than special-attack variants. Besides, there were plenty of Zeros and other planes available.


Kawanishi’s Naruo plant produced 9 prototypes and service-test aircraft, and 530 production N1K1-Js before switching to the improved Shiden-KAI in late 1944. The Himeji plant built 468 N1K1-Js until early 1945, when they also switched to the newer variant, thus bringing total production of this version to 1,007.

"It was clear from an early date that the Shiden could be improved upon, so work began on an improved version even while the Japanese Navy was evaluating the original variant. The most important change was to lower the wings from mid-fuselage to the lower fuselage; this eliminated the need for the tall and complicated landing gear of the early Shiden, and also simplified both construction and maintenance. The fuselage was lengthened, and the tail surfaces were also re-designed.
"Fewer Operational Losses/Higher Dur rating

The new version used only 43,000 parts to make, compared to the earlier Shiden’s 66,000 parts (not counting nuts and bolts), thus potentially speeding up production immensely. Higher Production rate or HI cost decrease

Unfortunately, the Nakajima Homare 21 engine was retained, as it was the only engine of sufficient output available to power the otherwise improved fighter; its teething troubles were never entirely solved, try though the engineers might. The net result of all this work was actually a virtually new aircraft, retaining only the wings and armament of the N1K1-Jb, and its bomb load.

The first prototype of the improved Shiden first flew on December 31, 1943. It featured a cleaner, closer-fitting cowling compared to the Shiden11, but then a decision was made to revert to the same kind of cowling as on the earlier model, to simplify production. Despite that, the oil cooler was moved to the inside of the cowling, to clean up the plane’s aerodynamics a bit. This new Shiden completed its manufacturer’s trials in just fifteen weeks, and was then handed on to the Imperial Navy, which swiftly realized that they had a definite winner despite the Homare 21’s infuriating teething troubles. By June 1944 five more prototypes had been built, and in that month production began. The new fighter was dubbed the N1K2-J Navy Interceptor Fighter Shiden-KAI Model 21, and retained the code name George when encountered by the Allies (it was used almost exclusively in home defense, although some were also based in Wonsan, Korea). Most N1K2-Js were of the basic type, but a few were completed as N1K2-Ja Model 21a fighter bombers, with double the bomb load of the basic Shiden-KAI.

The Imperial Navy adopted the Shiden-KAI as its standard land-based fighter and fighter-bomber, and strenuous efforts were made to manufacture as many as possible. (Why all Land-based A6M's SHOULD upgrade to the George)

N1K1-J:
Wingspan, 39 ft. 4 7/16 in.;
length, 29 ft. 1 25/32 in.;
height, 13 ft. 3 27/32 in.;
wing area, 252.951 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 6,387 lb.;
loaded weight, 8,598 lb.;
maximum weight, 9,526 lb.;
wing loading, 34 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, 4.4 lb./hp;
maximum speed, 363 mph at 19,355 ft.;
cruising speed, 230 mph at 6,560 ft.;

climb to 19,685 ft., 7 min. 50 sec.;
service ceiling, 41,010 ft.; *important
normal range, 890 st. miles; ** This is a big difference
maximum range, 1,581 st. miles *** This is odd.


N1K2-J:
Wingspan, 39 ft. 4 7/16 in.;
length, 30 ft. 7 29/32 in.;
height, 12 ft. 11 29/32 in.;
wing area, 252.951 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 5,858 lb.;
loaded weight, 8,818 lb.;
maximum weight, 10,714 lb.;
wing loading, 34.9 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, 4.4 lb./hp;
maximum speed, 369 mph at 18,375 ft.;
cruising speed, 230 mph at 9,845 ft.;

climb to 19,685 ft., 7 min. 22 sec.;
service ceiling, 35,300 ft.; *Important
normal range, 1,066 st. miles; ** Couple hexes extra
maximum range, 1,488 st. miles. *** Odd
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Brady »

I agree in therory, I find it interesting to that many subvarients for the US side are modeled and not so many for the Japanese, but then again I have come to find that this is not uncomon in Wargames/sims, that are largely catering to a US/Western market, just a glance at the forums would show a likely 70/30 split in Allied fanboy/Japanese Fanboy's. After spending as much time imersed in Flight sims over the past few years and having spent 2.5 years creating historical match ups for AH in a player areana, I do have a fairly decent understanding of the apontes in the air war in the Pacific potential wise, the George is certainly potentialy equil to or better than a Hellcat in many ways and would or should prove to be so in the game given decent piolets are in it.
This game is huge in scope howeaver, and their are missing or mirepresented units on both sides and I am shure that given the effort shown so far we can look to seeing many of these isues fixed in the upcoming patch.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by esteban »

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Has anyone playtested with the Judy vs. the Val against say a US CV fleet to see if it's surviviability is better?

You would want to use relatively experinced pilots simulating that you managed to preserve you pilot pool til TF 58 came knocking.

You'd want to even the odds as far as escorts(maybe use A6M8s or A7Ms), number of CV in each TF etc. Basically generate a fictional fair fight say in Late 43' early 44' with capabale japanese airgroup against a default US airgroup. Even test the extreme's by using a less experienced (read "DUMB") US airgroup, and see if the results improved dramatically. If the Judy's were carved out of the sky by inexperienced US CAGs then the Judy might be a dud, at least in the game.
Afaik, no, they haven't. However, what has been made abundantly clear is that a fast plane is better than a slow one, as it is one of the primary factors in air combat.

Think about it this way. CIC on Essex establishes a radar contact at 85 miles out. F6F's on CAP rocket toward the contact at 380mph. Ready aircraft on the Essex take off and climb to altitude for intercept leakers. Compare the Val to the Judy:

The Val cruises at 184 and maxes at 240. At cruise, a flight of D4Y Judy's will get to the carrier in 19 minutes. The closing rate for the F6F's on the Val is 564 mph. At 57 miles out, the F6F's make contact with the vals, who go to full power and close on the carriers. It will take them another 14 minutes to reach the carriers. Along the way, the Hellcats enjoy a 140 mph speed advantage over the Vals, making harder targets for the Val's rear gunners and allowing the Helcats to savage the group at their leisure.

Now, the Judy. The Judy cruises at 265 mph and maxes out at 343 mph. The closure rate for the Judy group is 645 mph and they make contact at 50 miles out. They go to full power and close the CV's at 343 mph. They need to survive 9 minutes to get a chance to attack. 5 minutes less. The Hellcats have a tougher job. Each boom and zoom takes longer to setup, because they only enjoy a 37 mph speed advantage. The Judy's rear gunner has an easier target to make the F6F's attack riskier (and therefore less likely to succeed).

Which is the better bomber?

This doesn't answer the question at hand though. Do the two models perform significantly different ingame? So far, I have not seen anything to suggest that airspeed is an important statistic in this game, with the exception of fighter aircraft, who use slashing tactics if they have a speed advantage.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

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Bah ! This whole thread is nothing but a Japanese Fanboy love in !
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

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ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Bah ! This whole thread is nothing but a Japanese Fanboy love in !
No disrespect intended, but: stuff it, mate![:'(]

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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

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Bah ! This whole thread is nothing but a Japanese Fanboy love in
Bah ! This whole thread is nothing but a Japanese Fanboy love in
Feel the love...
And I certainly dooooooo May the grace of His eminence Shine on you as you die for the honor of his eloctrons and code...

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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by esteban »

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Bah ! This whole thread is nothing but a Japanese Fanboy love in !

Some people are just jealous that they can't research so that their F6F Hellcats are available in time for the Battle of Midway :)

Meanwhile, there are the rest of us who are hoping that we can figure out a way to produce something that is as good as a Hellcat in time to prevent Tokyo Bay from becoming an American lake. :/
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by SunDevil_MatrixForum »

Yes, our Allied love in's are much better because we have a DJ and punch. [:D]
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Raverdave »

[:D][:D][:D]
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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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