Banana AAR

[Nikademus]

The flagship is not going to make it. Nagumo has authorized her scuttling. A sad day for the Empire!

[Nikademus]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/22/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 128,44

Japanese Ships
AP Otori Maru, heavy damage
AP Shoan Maru, Shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Blue
DD Ellet
DD Hull
DD Litchfield
DD Schley

Japanese ground losses:
84 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 128,44

Japanese Ships
AK Aden Maru
AK Akiura Maru
AK Bandoeng Maru
AK Belgium Maru
AK Bordeaux Maru, Shell hits 1
AK Brazil Maru, Shell hits 2, heavy damage
AK Calcutta Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
AK Cheribon Maru, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AG AG-105
AG AG-121
AG AG-123
AG AG-354

Allied Ships
DD Blue
DD Ellet
DD Hull
DD Litchfield, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Schley

Japanese ground losses:
91 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wuchow , at 42,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 6
Ki-51 Sonia x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-51 Sonia: 4 damaged


Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 130,44


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 7


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AK Asakasan Maru
AK Sado Maru, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 12000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat at 129,44

Japanese Ships
AK Aden Maru
AK Akiura Maru
AK Bandoeng Maru
AK Belgium Maru
AK Bordeaux Maru
AK Brazil Maru, heavy damage
AK Calcutta Maru
AK Cheribon Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AG AG-105
AG AG-121
AG AG-123
AG AG-354

Allied Ships
CA Northampton
CL Honolulu
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Henley
DD Gridley
DD Benham
DD Shaw
DD Flusser
DD Tucker
DD Cassin
DD Downes
DD Dewey
DD MacDonough
DD Alwin
DD King
DD Lawrence

Japanese ground losses:
18 casualties reported

[Deathifier]

I had a quick look over the force strengths before you started and figured if you sent enough units it'd make it, but with 300k+ troops turning up immediately, in a well fortified CITY hex, that's just mission impossible.

Best you could do is land at one of the other cities, maybe LA?
Hope you can take it before the hordes of troops turn up, but I wouldn't put much confidence in it...

Thanks for trying it out Nikademus

- Deathifier

[UncleBuck]

Ok so I guess that it is not possible to Land and win in the US. I knew that some extra forces woudl show upp, but that was INSANE! Ok Nik, You are right, I was wrong. You are smart I am dumb. You are good looking I am not so. The Banana is a Psycho, you are calm and collected.

UB

[Nikademus]

The Banana has alot of explaining to do..... [;)]

[Guderon]

Nik, following this AAR is more entertaining than a good movie! I find myself checking this thread WAY too often when I'm supposed to be working. [8|] I figured this is pretty much what would happen if anyone tried to do it, though the sinking of the US carriers this early in the war was certainly a rude surprise for the US. I'm curious - how do you think the game would play out at this point? Is there any hope at all for the Japanese, or do you think they're done dancin'? And what does Luskan have to say about the banana's performance? [;)]

[ADavidB]

A few questions:

1 - If I read you correctly, six divisions appeared essentially overnight in San Fran? Or did they appear elsewhere and get moved in.

It would seem to me that if Japan were to try a December 1941 invasion that the US would be hard pressed to put up a half dozen combat-ready division in San Fran very quickly. I would expect that reserve divisions would be called up first, with little in the way of training or equipment. (Now, if the Japanese made the mistake of landing in Orange County, things would likely be very, very different...[;)] )

It would seem more realistic that the additional divisions would show up in that "US" base at the far right of the map, then have to move to San Fran or elsewhere.

2 - If I also read you correctly the fortification also increased over night. I can't imagine any scenario that would allow that, other than a major earthquake creating huge fault-walls at the beachhead. [;)]

I presume that the Designers did this because of the infamous "2:1" rule, which in itself is horribly unrealistic, particularly in city fighting.

BTW - I'll second the other folks who noticed the impossibility of the Japanese bombardment fleets actually getting to where they could bombard the US Naval facilities in San Fran. San Francisco should be modelled like Manila/Bataan, with any enemy fleet having to battle its way past the fortresses first before being able to reach the city.

Now, on the other hand, Long Beach Naval Shipyard as well as San Diego had nothing between them and the ocean except breakwaters, so bombardments there ought to work reasonably well.

(Just my 2 cents...)

Dave Baranyi

[Bradley7735]

Hi Nik,

Once you've played this out to it's conclusion (once all major fleet units are back to port), can you post a summary of losses (ship losses by class, total planes and total LCU)?

Thanks for the enjoyment.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

BTW - I'll second the other folks who noticed the impossibility of the Japanese bombardment fleets actually getting to where they could bombard the US Naval facilities in San Fran. San Francisco should be modelled like Manila/Bataan, with any enemy fleet having to battle its way past the fortresses first before being able to reach the city.

Now, on the other hand, Long Beach Naval Shipyard as well as San Diego had nothing between them and the ocean except breakwaters, so bombardments there ought to work reasonably well.

I believe that would be me. I don't thinks its too big a deal. Attacks on SF are going to be rare enough I suspect. And if you want to get nigglely, Alameda NAS was sorta, just barely, visible from just a bit outside the actual Golden Gate itself. Of course, even to get that far you'd have to come well within range of Ft. Baker.

Besides, it gives us nitpickers something to make noise about that Matrix can safely ignore, keeping us busy and out of the way. [:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Guderon

Nik, following this AAR is more entertaining than a good movie! I find myself checking this thread WAY too often when I'm supposed to be working. [8|] I figured this is pretty much what would happen if anyone tried to do it, though the sinking of the US carriers this early in the war was certainly a rude surprise for the US. I'm curious - how do you think the game would play out at this point? Is there any hope at all for the Japanese, or do you think they're done dancin'? And what does Luskan have to say about the banana's performance? [;)]

Sorry for the delay folks. ISP was down last nite. How do i think it would play out? Japan is basically screwed at this point. Even had the attack "Succeeded" they would not have held the city indefinately....and it's too far away to be supplied, much less "exploited" for it's intact resource centers and such. In order to even attempt the attack i had to take away the entire first wave of Japan's available troop resources to do it (about 5+ INF Divisions) and of course the entire IJN was needed to support.

Now those divisions are shattered and the entire SRA is intact and in Allied hands. KB has been shattered....nearly 3/4 of her prewar pilots are dead or MIA and many ships have been damaged and lost. Many damaged ships that would have been saved (like Akagi) are being lost because of the 2000+mile trip back to a >size 3 port. Not even gonna speak of the fuel and supply wastage.

Meanwhile thanks to the accelerated rule....the Allies have about 10 Divisions ready for the Pacific. Think you'd be soon seeing them in places like Wake and Manila.

Luskan is laying low.....like the Banana. [X(]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

A few questions:

1 - If I read you correctly, six divisions appeared essentially overnight in San Fran? Or did they appear elsewhere and get moved in.

Nope. They appeared overnite. This is i guess, the accelerated arrival rule being triggered. Wasn't expecting it myself.

It would seem to me that if Japan were to try a December 1941 invasion that the US would be hard pressed to put up a half dozen combat-ready division in San Fran very quickly. I would expect that reserve divisions would be called up first, with little in the way of training or equipment. (Now, if the Japanese made the mistake of landing in Orange County, things would likely be very, very different...[;)] )

I agree. I was expecting a reserve div or two appearing shortly after landing and was looking forward to seeing if the landed IJN divisions could beat the level 7+ fort entrenched troops waiting for them. After the teleport.....the issue was never in doubt. In all honesty though its not really a major issue as the whole point of the AAR was to show how silly the whole idea is for the Japan player anyway.....even if i'd taken the city.....what then? I had to scrap all other offensive ops to do it and there was a reason why Japan went for the SRA [;)].

My only concern here is that knowing this rule is there will not help keep players honest about their forward deployments but again.....as Allied player i never really worried much about Japan "invading" the west coast anyway.

2 - If I also read you correctly the fortification also increased over night. I can't imagine any scenario that would allow that, other than a major earthquake creating huge fault-walls at the beachhead. [;)]

I presume that the Designers did this because of the infamous "2:1" rule, which in itself is horribly unrealistic, particularly in city fighting.

No, the fort level of the Wst coast cities begins the game at level 5. I managed to increase to 7 by the landing, and the delay caused by the arrivial of the last (doomed) contingent of Japanese troops allowed the level to be built up rapidly to 8 (there were only like 5000 engineers and 300 vehicles there by that time)

Not sure what you mean by "infamous 2:1 rule" the odds (as explained many times) printed are modified odds and to acheive 2:1 odds is harder than one thinks, especially in urban terrain. If the Fort level is greater than 0, you will also need higher than 2:1 odds to capture the hex/city/base. If your reffering the the accelerated rule.......this was put into place after complaints about "gamey play" if the Japan player tried to invade the west coast. I guess this was in part a worry because it was possible to do in PacWar. Personally i didn't see the need because as this AAR is showing.....the practicality of a Japanese invasion is NIL. They'd be better off trying to invade Oahu, no instant reinforcements but your still left with a single piece of real estate that the US can live without if it had too....meanwhile japan's industries starve. WitP is not PacWar, and the economic/production system will not reward players for taking military objectives at the expense of vital industrial targets. The Map scale and single day turns also make long ranged attacks much more problematical as well.

BTW - I'll second the other folks who noticed the impossibility of the Japanese bombardment fleets actually getting to where they could bombard the US Naval facilities in San Fran. San Francisco should be modelled like Manila/Bataan, with any enemy fleet having to battle its way past the fortresses first before being able to reach the city.

WitP is too broad in scope for specific harbors/airfields to be represented, therefore a generic system was put into it's place. I'm sure everyone is aware that not all airfields are as accessible as Lunga, nor are all harbors as closed as San Francisco or Pearl harbor. Size though does factor here. I noticed that with a large # of units present and given the huge size of the base (size 10) the Japanese bombardments had very little overall effect on things....particularily the LCU's, most had no disruption after repeated bombardments.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Nik,

Once you've played this out to it's conclusion (once all major fleet units are back to port), can you post a summary of losses (ship losses by class, total planes and total LCU)?

Thanks for the enjoyment.

Yes, i was planning too (when i get a chance and when my home ISP goes back up) Gonna dump the LCU rememants on an isolated rock and count noses.....its not going to be pretty.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Deathifier

I had a quick look over the force strengths before you started and figured if you sent enough units it'd make it, but with 300k+ troops turning up immediately, in a well fortified CITY hex, that's just mission impossible.

Best you could do is land at one of the other cities, maybe LA?
Hope you can take it before the hordes of troops turn up, but I wouldn't put much confidence in it...

Thanks for trying it out Nikademus

- Deathifier

Invading Seattle, or LA or San Diego might succeed in the short term becuase SF is the portal....but it would be a very short occupation. Japan would damage some US industry but the long term damage to her self would be far greater.

As i've said (numerous times [;)] ), such a stunt as this only makes the game easier for the Allied player.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

It says in the manual that all arrival dates for units are moved up by 180 days, and also other units just show up. So when looking at the arrival dates of units anything under 180 days is now available when you land troops on the US.

[mogami]

Hi, Only actual units that fought in Pacific arrive in SF. IN the USA when Banana [X(] landed were also at least 6 Armor Divisions and 6 other infantry div. The USA began the draft in 1940. By the time of PH the US Army had activate most of the units that saw action in WW2. Only have 6 units arrive is taking it easy on the Japanese compared to what was actually on hand.

Army Divisions are divided into three groups.
1st Infantry Division to the 25th Infantry Division comprise the United States Army.
26th Infantry Division to the 76th Infantry Division comprise the National Guard.
77th Infantry 106th Infantry Division) comprise the National Army. These last divisions are activated only in time of war.

The USA was working it's way through Federalizing the NG div in Dec 1941

[Nikademus]

not fully ready, trained or equipped however.

[anarchyintheuk]

Here's a good site for the US forces available on 12/7/41. http://www.navsource.org/Naval/usarmy.htm

While its a mixed bag in terms of equipment and training (especially the national guard units), a number of the regular army divisions had gone through extensive traning by the start of the war. Starting in the summer of '40 several regular army divs had undergone maneuvers in TX/LA during the summer of 1940 (1st, 2nd, 5th and 6th Inf. divs and the 1st Cav). Later during the year some NG units underwent maneuvers in the field. The NG maneuvers, though not terribly successful, highlighted a number of the deficiencies in the NG that were, at the least, partially addressed by wartime. The maneuvers held in 1941 were as extensive as those of the previous year and included more realistic conditions. By wartime some of the formations were about as well trained as a unit can be that had not seen actual combat. Whether that training was realistic or as effective as it would be later when combat experience had been gained is another matter.

I'll have to look and see what kind of equipment the regular army divs had at the start of the war.

[DrewMatrix]

the Japanese ships are NOT in the harbor unloading. All the port facilities are inside the Bay, not on the Pacific.

(I live near SF)

There is a lovely long beach on the pacific ocean side San Francisco. Miles long. You could (should) go over the beach into SF, rather than sail into the bay.

And "Sail into the Bay" is likely impossible unless you have local pilots. The shipping Channel is really really narrow and the tides are furious (all that water wooshing in and out with each tide).

Invade the ocean beach. It is within SF City limits anyhow.

[DrewMatrix]

Thinking about such an invasion in real life (the residents of SF, like my mother, were expecting it any day):

Just having done it should cost the US an ENORMOUS number of PPs for letting this happen. Maybe the US now has to suck eship and soldier and A/C it has anywhere in the world back to California or Roosevelt is impeached in the next two weeks?

It certainly puts the old kaibosh on "Europe First". I suspect the US public is now going to insist "San Francisco first."

The Germans are really going to be the benficiaries of this move.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

the Japanese ships are NOT in the harbor unloading. All the port facilities are inside the Bay, not on the Pacific.

(I live near SF)

There is a lovely long beach on the pacific ocean side San Francisco. Miles long. You could (should) go over the beach into SF, rather than sail into the bay.

And "Sail into the Bay" is likely impossible unless you have local pilots. The shipping Channel is really really narrow and the tides are furious (all that water wooshing in and out with each tide).

Invade the ocean beach. It is within SF City limits anyhow.

Which is, strangely enough, called Ocean Beach. [:D] (I live in San Rafael.) I would expect that invaders would also be landing at Marin's beaches so they could take Mt. Tam and the headlands batteries. (Stinson Beach in particular would be good if it weren't for the fact that observers on Mt. Tam would be counting each soldier's pimples.)