OOB Comments

[Brady]

Many of the Japanese Aircraft are armed with the wrong Guns, Several Army Planes are listed as having the Ho-3 when they should have the Ho-5, many Navy Planes Are listed as Having the Type 99, when the Should have the Type 99 MK 2, All Zeros Past the A6M2 Should Have the Type 99 MK II cannon as an example, their are also many bomb isues with the Japanese planes somebody semingly had a stiffy for the 60KG bomb type as it was stuck on all kinds of planes including army ones. I asume Japanese aircraft ranges have been neutered in many instances for play balance? Have these isues been mentioned before?

Their are other isues as well for example the Mavis shows the Toprs as internal, when they should be external, I am hesistant to start a compleat list well, because it would take forever to do and it may be pointless to do, since this may be already know are these isues on the to do list?

[Onime No Kyo]

"A" Battery, 95th AT Regiment RA (12 x 2 pounder AT)

Not an OOB complaint, just a question. [:)] Was it usual UK practice to dismember units like this?

Also...I haven't followed the OOB thread much (completely out of my league) but I noticed that in the database there is an L-3 "vehicle". Would this be the Italian AFV (if it can be so called)? If so, what in the world is it doing in the Pacific? If not, what is it?

[Rainerle]

Hi,
APD-46 starting at Sasebo has CMDR Montgomery as captain.
Question: Why is it, that many floatplane groups have less max. aircraft than the capacity of the ship?
Example: Yamato, 2 x 3 plane chutais, capacity 7 ?
Musashi 2 x 2 plane chutais. capacity 7 ?

[pry]

data Collected

Just a quick note, from now on for OOB reports 2 additional pieces of information are needed with each report/request

Game Version Number and Scenario Number

Example (i'll use Rainerle's last post as an example)

V1.21 Scenario 15, APD-46 starting at Sasebo has CMDR Montgomery as captain.

[pry]

ORIGINAL: Brady

Many of the Japanese Aircraft are armed with the wrong Guns, Several Army Planes are listed as having the Ho-3 when they should have the Ho-5, many Navy Planes Are listed as Having the Type 99, when the Should have the Type 99 MK 2, All Zeros Past the A6M2 Should Have the Type 99 MK II cannon as an example, their are also many bomb isues with the Japanese planes somebody semingly had a stiffy for the 60KG bomb type as it was stuck on all kinds of planes including army ones. I asume Japanese aircraft ranges have been neutered in many instances for play balance? Have these isues been mentioned before?

Their are other isues as well for example the Mavis shows the Toprs as internal, when they should be external, I am hesistant to start a compleat list well, because it would take forever to do and it may be pointless to do, since this may be already know are these isues on the to do list?

A complete point by point list is required for items you feel are in error, they will then be reviewed for possible future correction in a patch.

[Brady]

CC, Pry hear is a start:

Below is a list by plane type of errors found in the OOB of Scenerio 16, I modified my 15 so I wanted to start with a clean slate so I used 16 as the base, the errors are referenced to Rene J. Francillon's Book Japaese Aircraft of the Pacific War, and some of Buschells volumes on Japanese aircraft, and so other books I have on the subject.

A Note on Endurance, for the most it would seam that endurance figures are about half that of the range listed for the plane type in most referances, though in many instances the figure given in the game seams considerably less, since I am not entirely shure how WiTP handels this my coments on the endurance errors beleow may be off in this regard.



A5M4: Endurance given as 746 st miles in most referances yet in the game listed at 200. Manuaver it has been my understanding that the A5M was as manuaverable if not a bit more in fact than the Zero yet this is not reflectedin the manuaver rating in the game.

A6M2-N: Endurance listed as Normal at 714 miles/ Max 1,107, yet in the game given as 240.

A6M2:Endurance figures listed at 1,160 Normal/ 1,930 Max , game gives about 590, not bad if based soly on normal, but my understanding is that max included the drop tank and this was used often. Manuaver figure is less than the A6M3 and this is not corect the A6M2 was more manuaverable than the A6M3.

A6M3: Endurance again seams off Max listed as 1,477, and game alows 385. Manuaver see A6M2 coments. 20 mm Type 99 Cannon soould be 20 mm Type 99 Cannon mod.2.

A6M5:Endurance again seams a bit low 1,194 Max given yet we see only 310 in game, again max figure would sugest the use of a drop tank, and this was often done. Gun Package should be two 20 mm Type 99 mod 2 cannon, and one each of the following 7.7mm type 97 MG and 13.2mm type 3 MG, since the A6M5 is a generic a/b and since most of the planes built in this series were so equiped it would seam the more represenative gun load out. Their is also some argument for switching the 60 KG bombload for a single 250 KG as this was often dun in the field and led to the standaradsation of this load out on future models.

A6M5C: Endurance see above. Gunpackage should be three 13.2 mm type 3 MG's and two 20 mm type 99 mod 2.

A6M8: Endurance suspect based on finding listed above. Gunpackage should list 20 mm Type 99 mod.2, should also carry the 250 Kg bomb type, indead it was capable of carrying the 500 KG bomb.

A7M2: Endurance seams a tad low again though not as bad as some of the figures listed above, realy hard to say since this plane never realy entered combat. 20mm Cannon should be again the 20mm type 99 mod.2.

N1k-: Endurance N1K1 890/1,581 (normal/max) miles, N1K2 1,066/1,488 miles, game alows 230!, I listed both types since the George in WiTP is generic representing both plane types. Bombload should be two 250 KG bombs , the gun package is representative of the N1K2-J, and the bombload of this and many of the N1K1's was two 250 kg bombs, heck some models could load four 250 kg bombs.

J2M:Endurance listed at 1,180 st miles game alows 320. Gun package should be two Type 99 cannons and two type 99 mod.2 cannons.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Brady



A6M3: Endurance again seams off Max listed as 1,477, and game alows 385. Manuaver see A6M2 coments. 20 mm Type 99 Cannon soould be 20 mm Type 99 Cannon mod.2.

Brady,
Are you talking about the Model 22 or the Model 32? I have already posted on this matter in this thread. I am not sure why but it seems the A6M3 is doomed to be represented by the lesser produced and lesser capable model. Makes you wonder why you'd WANT to upgrade to it.

The A6M3 that is represented in this game is the Model 32 known as the clip-winged, no gas-havin', "Hamp". The problem I see with that is that the Model 22 was produced in greater numbers (560 Mod 22 & 343 Mod 32)

The Model 22 had the wingtips added back on in order to lower wing-loading for the 9.9 Imp-Gal fuel tank installed in each wing. These tanks gave the Model 22 effectively 100 mile longer range than the A6M2!!! In fact it was these Zeros that made the 644 mile round trip to Guadalcanal from Rabaul. Now anyone who has played UV or WitP in the Solomons knows that this won't be possible with the current representation of the A6M3.

Given that the Model 22 was built in greater numbers and came into production only 2-3 months after the first model 32s shouldn't IT be used as the "Generic" A6M3 model in WitP?

Generally speaking, I'd also like to see more Japanese sub-variants modelled, and the upgrade paths for IJ Army and Navy made more flexible.

I am currently working on a Scenario that fixes the A6M3 to the Model 22 standard, brings the George in a little earlier (basically when the Shiden did 11/43), and makes the IJ Army and Navy Fighter Paths a bit more linear (thus more flexible). unfortunately this is just my scenario and not the official game Scenarios.

ORIGINAL: Brady
N1k-: Endurance N1K1 890/1,581 (normal/max) miles, N1K2 1,066/1,488 miles, game alows 230!, I listed both types since the George in WiTP is generic representing both plane types. Bombload should be two 250 KG bombs , the gun package is representative of the N1K2-J, and the bombload of this and many of the N1K1's was two 250 kg bombs, heck some models could load four 250 kg bombs.

I agree with this too. not to mention there is an entirely different aircraft (the N1K1) that should be available in late 43'

I'm not sure how the endurance is formulated. does that number equate to some mileage or is it an abstract number that is compared to all the other abstract ENDUR #s?

[vonmoltke]

Posted this in Brady's thread, too:

The A6M5c specs in the game appear to correspond to what was actually the A6M7. The A6M5c was not a fighter-bomber and had the gun armament Brady mentioned above.

[mdiehl]

Fallschirmjaeger requested that I mention these missing US WAGCs (Amphibious Assault Command Ships).

Treasury Class (327')
Displacement: 2750
Max Speed: 20 knots
Range: 8000 nautical miles @ 12 knots
Armaments: 2x5"/38, 2x3"50, 6xtwin 40mm, 4x single 20mm, 4x DCK, 2 x DC rack, 1x hedgehog projector.
Compliment: 252.

Available as WAGCs 1 January 1944 San Diego with the most recent fire control and air search radars.

Total number of ships, 3: WPG(WAGC)-31 Bibb, WPG(WAGC)-33 Duane, WPG(WAGC)-46 Spencer. Their principal use was as AGCs for the ancillary invasions surrounding the main invasions at Okinawa and Iwo (principally Karema Retto and ChichiJima).

[Brady]

J1N1-S: Endurance listead at 1,581 miles normal and max at 2,348, the game alows for 540. This plane type was fited with several diferent gun configurations, while the upward guns apear to be of the Type 99 MK I series the forward guns are Type 99 MK II (depending on the varient) If radar equiped (or searchlight as many were ) the forward guns would not be carried. My referances dont show the night fighters carrying bombs, also the bombs are shwon a facing -F, I beelave 12-XT is the corect facing for this weapon type.

J1N1-R: The endurance figure of 600 for this planes does indead seam better than it's relative listed above though again it does apear to be a bit short changed.

C6N1-S: 1,914 normal,3,300 max miles game alows 480. Again this plane type is shown having a bomb capacity and I done beleave othe rthan in a Kamakise role it ever realy had one moch like the J1N listed above, unless this is neaded to alow for the Kamakisie aspect (if so this is kinda odd since the load they were capable of carying in these guises was considerably larger than the ones given in the game, the J1N for example could manage two 250 kg bombs in a Kamakise configuration.)

C6N: See above.


D1A: I like how we can have the standard and well published full bombload for this plane and we cant for the val[:)] Endorance figures seam ok for this plane though still a bit shy not enough to realy mention.

D3A: Endurance is again semingly short for this plane with 914 to 840 miles given for the two primary varients (again the val is generic in WiTP) and a game value of 300 shown. As is well know by now the bomb load isue for the val is a subject of much debate. The manuaver figure for this plane is a bit harsh imo, Vals were very handy so much so if fact tehy were considered capable of dog fighting.

D4Y: We again have a generic Japanese aircraft model, and the figure given for spead is representative of the slowest of the all at 343. A total of 2,038 D4Y's were built of those aprox. 700 were D4Y1's rated at 343 max spead, the rest all betered this spead by around almost 20 mph, the D4Y3 and D4Y2 managed 357 and 360 mph respectively and together represented the larger share of teh production run with well over 800 of both types being built, finishing out the run was the D4Y4 rated at 350 mph. Endurance figure in the game for this type is 220,despite the fact it managed on average nearly 1,000 miles normal and about 2,000 miles max (vared between 2,400 and 1,600 depending on model for max range). Bombload the game alows but one single 250 KG bomb, though the D4Y in all it's guises could manage 500Kg loads for short ranged sorties, what is realy interesting is depending on the source the only times this plane type managed to hit a CV it did so with a 500 KG bomb ( or two 250 KG bombs again depends on the source). Manuaver figure again seams a bit harsh.

B4Y: Seams close enough though still a tad short on the range figure.

B5N: Endurance seams odd only becuse I dont compleatly understand how WiTP arives at these figures,referances list from between 608 and 1,237 miles (normal/Max) for this plane the game alows 380. the Manuaver figure for the Kate seams a bit harsh at 20, having flow it in flight sims the plane is very easy to handel and was preportedly so in real life.

A note on Manuaver: Figures Having as an example a plane like the Hellcate with a figure of 36 and the Zero at a similar figure is giving me serious WTF vibes, prety much all the planes above could easly outmanuaver a plane like the Hellcate yet their manuaver values are way lower, even planes with identicale manuaver figures like the George and the Hellcate give cause for serious concern since the George owns a Helcate in this regard.


B6N: Again we have a generic plane type hear the endurance is agin a point of concern, with figures given for 909-1,085 normal/ 2,142-1,892 max miles to a game figure of 350. Torpedo is show as "11-INT", I belave "12-EXT" would be the corect setting. Manuaver agian a bit harsh.

B7A: Endurance, figures given show a normal range of 1,151 max of 1,888, game alows 450. Manuaver figure of 22 is way off by all acounts this plane handeled extreamly well some sources liken it to that of the Zero in this regard. This plane should also have an Armor value of 1.



B7A:

[TheElf]

Keep it up Brady! Fight the good fight man!

[Brady]

[:)], I will have time on thursday to do some more of the list, their are several erros in the Army planes and some more in the Navy planes.

[Subchaser]

Brady, thanks for posting your observations… someone should point this out. I’ve started to mess with editor two days after WitP release… and I still make changes, from cosmetic like internal position of Rikko torpedoes and up to crucial like range/endurance issue, and this one is the most problematic… what effect right range ratings will have if the map is wrong? Did you test Japanese a/c with corrected ratings? If not… do it and you’ll see that correct data is not always the best solution possible. I’m trying to tune aircraft endurance/drop tanks settings in order to see historically accurate performance in WitP world and not on database screen…

[michaelm75au]

In the database for scenario #5 (similiar starting time), the 1st USMC Div is loaded into taskforce TG62.1 and 112th USA Cav Rgt is at Suva.
However in the database for scenario #14, the 1st USMC Div is located at Luganville and the 112th USA Cav Rgt is loaded into taskforce TG62.1.

My guess is that this is a typo as these units are next to each other in the database.

Sorry forgot! This applies to version 1.21 databases.

[oleb]

In scenario 15 the DD Natsushio seems to start upgraded. Its listed as Kagero 6/1944. Other Kagero class destroyers are not available for upgrade before 1/43.

Is the upgraded destroyer a bug or feature?

[Rainerle]

Hi,
please somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I always got the impression that IJN airgroups (Daitai) consist of 27 (max) planes which split into 3 Chutais a 9 (max) planes.
IJA airgroups (Sentai) consist of 36 (max) planes which split into 3 12 (max) plane chutais.
Now in the game I've seen lots of army chutais with 9 planes and navy chutais with 12 planes. Also I spotted a army sentai with 27 aircraft. Is this correct ?

[DBS]

V1.21, Scenario 15
Leaving aside the Firefly, for which the host of egregious errors have already been recorded, some minor / very minor errors as follows, mainly for completeness, unless the XT vs INT or F makes a difference:

095 Swordfish: Wpn 1 should be 151 Vickers V x 1 or omitted; Wpn 2 should be 148 Lewis x 1

096 Barracuda - Armour should be 1

106 Empire - this armament looks extremely dubious (see my comment re the Sunderland), but trying to find definitive source - all I have confirmed is some form of improvised armament. Suspect should be limited to flexible Vickers Ks. Given that the Empires were built as airliners, suspect the bombs (if correct at all) should be 12-XT unless definitive evidence to contrary.

107 Sunderland - depends on which mark, but RAF never fitted quadruple Lewises to anything! If we go for the most prevalent Mk IIs or Mk IIIs, then:
Wpn 1 150 .303 Browning x 2;
Wpn 2 150 .303 Browning x 2 03-TT (or keep the 2 x beam .50 for late Mk Is)
Wpn 3 150 .303 Browning x 4

108 Dornier 24K-2 Wpn 2 should be 165 20mm HS404 x 1

118 Lysander I
Wpn 1 150 .303 Browning x 2
Wpn 2 149 Vickers K x 1 (if Lysander Mark I) or x 2 (if Mark II, much more common Mark in the Far East)

119 Wirraway Wpn 2 should be 149 Vickers K x 1

129 Spitfire XIV normal E wing should be:
Wpn 1 just x2 Hispanos
Wpn 2 161 .50 Browning x 2 00-F
Wpn 3 203 500lb GP x 2 12-XT

133 Blenheim IF Cannot find any evidence of Blenheim IFs carrying AI radar in the Far East. 27 Sqn were indeed nominated as a night-fighter unit, but appear to have relied solely on Mark I eyeball. When reformed, they flew Beaufighter Ic, VIc and Xs - ie long-range fighter rather than night-fighter variant. And in 1941-2, suspect every available AI
set would have been kept in the UK for home defence. Bombload is too light - looking for definitive detail.

134 Beaufighter VIF - even if one allows the AI (trying to find when first sets deployed to Far East), the bombs should be 12-XT.

149 Beaufighter VIC - again, the mythical Beaufighter internal bomb bay. Change Wpn 3 and Wpn 4 to 12-XT.

152 Beaufighter 21 - as well as changing bombs to 12-XT, Wpn 2 should be 161 .50 Browning x 6. Also, should add 149 Vickers K x1 as 05-BR. And should be torpedo capable, but is this possible for a fighter-bomber? I have avoided changing, just in case.

[Montbrun]

The initial dispositions of RAAF Squadrons on 12/7/41, and 12/11/41 for Australia is as follows:

Singapore Island

Sembawang Base - No. 453 Sqn. RAAF - 16 x Buffalo (18 x Buffalo in Scenario 15)
No. 8 Sqn. RAAF - 4 x Hudson (Det. not represented in Scenario 15)

Northern Malaya

Sungei Patani Base - No. 21 Sqn. RAAF - 12 x Buffalo
Kota Bharu Base - No. 1 Sqn. RAAF - 12 x Hudson (10 x Hudson in Scenario 15)
Kuantan Base - No. 8 Sqn. RAAF - 8 x Hudson (12 x Hudson in Scenario 15)

Australia

Wirraways
No. 4 Sqn. RAAF - Canberra - 12 a/c
No. 5 Sqn. RAAF - Laverton - 12 a/c
No. 12 Sqn. RAAF - Darwin - 18 a/c (12 a/c in Scenario 15)
No. 22 Sqn. RAAF - Richmond - 17 a/c
No. 23 Sqn. RAAF - Archerfield - 12 a/c (+ 3 Hudsons)
No. 24 Sqn. RAAF - Townsville - 12 a/c (+ 4 Hudsons - see below) (Ordered to Rabaul)
No. 25 Sqn. RAAF - Pearce - 18 a/c

Hudsons
No. 2 Sqn. RAAF - Darwin - 8 a/c (+ No. 7 Sqn. RAAF attached with no a/c)
Det/No. 2 Sqn. RAAF - Koepang - 4 a/c
No. 6 Sqn. RAAF - Richmond - 6 a/c
Det/No. 6 Sqn. RAAF - Laverton - 4 a/c (Has 6 a/c in Scenario 15)
No. 13 Sqn. RAAF - Darwin - 6 a/c
Det/No. 13 Sqn. RAAF - Laha - 6 a/c
No. 14 Sqn. RAAF - Pearce - 12 a/c
Det/No. 24 Sqn. RAAF - Rabaul - 4 a/c

Catalinas
No. 11 Sqn. RAAF - Port Moresby - 6 a/c
No. 20 Sqn. RAAF - Port Moresby - 6 a/c

Seagulls
No. 9 Sqn. RAAF - Richmond - 6 Shipborne and 5 Landbased a/c (Became Walrus with patch 1.20 -you had it right the first time - should be Seagulls)

I haven't found any reference to the 2/22 RAAF Flight contained in the game.

SOURCE:
Gillison, Douglas; "Australia in the War of 1939-1945: Royal Australian Air Force, 1939-1942," The Griffin Press, Adelaide, 1962.

Thanks,

Brad

[Lemurs!]

Brady,

The endurance figures are minutes of flight time at cruise speed.
Actually, most aircraft get a little extra endurance because there is no time to form up a strike etc.

Mike

[Blackhorse]

Brady,

The endurance figures are minutes of flight time at cruise speed.
Actually, most aircraft get a little extra endurance because there is no time to form up a strike etc.

Mike

I have a question on how to calculate range:

For example -- the TBD Devastator.

I multiply the cruising speed (128 mph) times the endurance (225 minutes) = 28800

I divide that number by 60 (converting endurance from minutes to hours and getting the range in miles) = 480

I divide that number by 60 (to convert range to hexes) = 8

So the TBD can fly 4 hexes out, and 4 back . . . thats 240 miles each way, or about twice its historically accurate range.

Is this the "extended" range? If so, how do I calculate the normal combat range?

P.S. Thanks Nessaja, for developing the a/c database; and thanks, Spooky, for posting it on your website!

P.P.S. Please don't refer me to an answer on a page # in the manual. My game order hasn't arrived yet.