This is a good point. Take the players not being happy with the surface combat and the fire concentration on a few ships. It was originally coded that way to make it more realistic. For example if a ship caught fire at night it became more visible and drew more fire. This was in the code. Also, there are more real world examples of the transports getting away that there are of them getting sunk to the last ship. However, once the players complained we changed it to make the game more enjoyable.
KID The complaint wasn't that this was happening at night (though it was a bit extreme
at times). The complaint was that it was doing exactly the same thing in broad daylight.
And in that case, the results weren't just a little questionable..., they were downright
silly.
For example if a ship caught fire at night it became more visible and drew more fire. This was in the code. Also, there are more real world examples of the transports getting away that there are of them getting sunk to the last ship. However, once the players complained we changed it to make the game more enjoyable.
I HATE those changes, whiners wanting changes without any Real World examples to back it up. I LOVE the AI changes (getting my Vildebeest target practice around Singapore now).
Would love to leave out the Surface combat updates, any way to do that???
Many examples were given. Many were Mediterranean or Atlantic but I don't think they would differ much from Pacific. [:-]
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
"For example if a ship caught fire at night it became more visible and drew more fire. This was in the code. Also, there are more real world examples of the transports getting away that there are of them getting sunk to the last ship. However, once the players complained we changed it to make the game more enjoyable."
Balls. In game you can literally run large unescorted convoys of AK's and AP's into the midst of enemy SC TF's and confidently expect to break contact after paying a "passage toll" of 1-3 ships. Regardless of illumination or any other factors. If it was 20 single ship TF's located in a 60 sq. mile hex it'd be somewhat reasonable...but not when it's a single consolidated TF containing 20 ships steaming at 9-12 knots going against a 30 knot radar equipped BB division and their escorts. (Well, you see, the BB's wouldn't fire because they're saving their ammo, besides it'd put wear on their gun barrels, and the DD's can't break formation because it'd leave the BB's uncovered, and, and, and....)
In the Matrix WitP model, the Bismarck/Tirpitz et al. (for example) wouldn't even rate a yawn, and the Germans could send an MTB out to intercept convoys and reasonably expect to do the same amount of damage. Stripped of all the posturing, inane justifications, and historical contortions of the various resident "experts" and apologists of whatever ilk, this is really poor game design.
Another difference being, of course, if it was the Bismarck, our search planes wouldn't fly, and our Swordfish wouldn't launch. "Sorry Sir! It's kinda dark and stormy out there, I didn't sleep good last night, those German BB's have alot of flak...send Jonnie instead!". If by some miracle they did, you (as the Supreme Commander of All You Survey) would be screaming into the mic; "NO NO NOOOOOOO, NOT THE FISHING BOAT! The BATTLESHIP...the big grey mountainous looking thing!!! OVER THERE!!!".
So if I buy the game now WITH CD do I get this and all previous patches included or do I still have to download 300 odd MB of patches one electron at a time over my incredibly slow decrepit and ancient telephone line???
Don't know what version is currently posted for DD.
1.21 is the current download version. 1.30 will be a comprehensive patch for all versions and will make the 1.00 to 1.30 upgrade path ~60Mb rather than 130+Mb once it's done. If you don't like to download patches at all, 1.30 should be available as the base version in the store around two weeks after the patch release (that's my estimate).
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
If there's no internet, and NO link to this board, I'd be playing UV v1.00 (as released) never knowing there are any patches to that game (let alone WITP) game and still thinking that is the greatest wargame ever released [:D] And I would not restart every once in a while...
At least where wargames are concerned, this really is a large part of the difference between today and the "good old days". Many old classics had bugs that were simply never fixed and became part of the design or were worked around. The internet is a huge help not only for getting players together with each other, but to help them compare notes and point out oddities. With a game this complex, it's almost impossible to find every problem and still release it while there are still computers that will run it outside of a museum. Our goal is not to release a game with bugs, but we realize that realistically beyond a certain complexity level, some bugs will slip through. WitP was playable from v1.00 and that's a testament to the developers and the beta team. Many games of much less complexity have ended up released in an unplayable, bug-ridden state, which was not the case with WitP.
Calm down and let the betas and devs do their work in (relative) peace.
Oleg
Jeez....where from "I confess my dissapointment" does everyone seem to get "I hate WiTP and I am really freaking mad and blah blah blah blah". I was slightly disappointed in having to restart after 1.2, but no worries. But I was under the impression (and really really hoping) that that would be the only patch required restart. Is it annoying? Yes. But is it a game killer for me? No, not really.
When I used the word "buggy", it is because I at the time (I have a terrible head cold) couldn't think of a more suiting word. I do think WiTP is a great game. My only (small) beef is that I wanted to be able to blay the whole enchilada (and get my ass kicked) from day 1. Hence, I was saying that knowing what I know now, I might (but doubtfuly) have bought the game after 1.3, not 2 hours after it was posted on Digital River. Still,Witp is the best wargame I have ever played, bar none. Except Panzer General, there is a special place in my heart for Panzer General.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
First of all, thanks for the wonderful support for your product. As a 30-yr wargamer, I say without reservation that WitP is the finest wargame ever produced. Just outstanding.
I am a little troubled by the apparent decision int he 1.3 patch to go with a less realistic, more 'fun' approach to gunnery. I agree with and prefer your prior design decision - letting gunfire focus on a few targets as a means to enhance realism. In the future, let me plead with you to prefer realism to pragmatism in future patches. WitP - as you know - is a grognard product, and we love complexity/realism.
As I understand these upgrades, only OOB changes require starting over. Other fixes can be installed on an existing game.
Is my understanding correct?
I have no intention of restarting the game for my DAR. I have already written the equivalent of a standard novel and I am disinclined to start again from the beginning.
Thayne
Editor in Chief
Thayne News Campaign Reports
All I can say is thanks for the support, I wish other companies practiced it. That's why I'm not worried about buying a Matrix game on the first day, even one as complex as WITP. Even if a game isn't fully playable at first (which I haven't experienced yet from Matrix, and I have bought 3 games, not counting SPWAW), I know they will continue to support it. Yes, I hate having to restart, but it's worth it for all the good stuff they put in the patches. Plus I see myself playing this games for a few years at least via PBEM so if I have to restart a campaign now in order to have all my future games be even better, fine with me.
Many games of much less complexity have ended up released in an unplayable, bug-ridden state, which was not the case with WitP.
Can anyone say Patriot by Three Sixty Pacific??? (still have THAT unplayable dog around here someplace)
I personally do not expect a game to be issued totally bug-free, I understand that a company (in this case Matrix) must balance development time versus bottom line. However, I do EXPECT a company to address at least the major bugs and to support the product for a reasonable period of time. In this respect I am quite happy with Matrix/2x3. I held off purchasing UV due to the issues that were present upon its' release, however once I purchased the game I was actually pleasantly surprised. This positive experience convinced me to purchase WitP upon release and so far I am happy with the product overall. Sure I have issues with bugs, design decisions etc., however I have not run into anything that was a "dealbreaker" for me. I am a tad disappointed that I'll have to restart my PBEM game, but again this is a momentary annoyance to me. I still believe that my $70 was well spent and I look forward to UV-Med or whatever it is they are calling it now!
Rick
"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter". Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Calm down and let the betas and devs do their work in (relative) peace.
Oleg
Jeez....where from "I confess my dissapointment" does everyone seem to get "I hate WiTP and I am really freaking mad and blah blah blah blah". I was slightly disappointed in having to restart after 1.2, but no worries. But I was under the impression (and really really hoping) that that would be the only patch required restart. Is it annoying? Yes. But is it a game killer for me? No, not really.
When I used the word "buggy", it is because I at the time (I have a terrible head cold) couldn't think of a more suiting word. I do think WiTP is a great game. My only (small) beef is that I wanted to be able to blay the whole enchilada (and get my ass kicked) from day 1. Hence, I was saying that knowing what I know now, I might (but doubtfuly) have bought the game after 1.3, not 2 hours after it was posted on Digital River. Still,Witp is the best wargame I have ever played, bar none. Except Panzer General, there is a special place in my heart for Panzer General.
Its the George W. Bush syndrome...."if you are not 100% with me, you are against me" thing. I have been significantly critical of many aspects of this game, and I still am, and will still have some problems even after the 1.3 patch is out. That DOES NOT mean, however, I dislike the game or do not find it thoroughly entertaining. Some people allow their emotional attachment to a game to dominate their common sense....
ORIGINAL: Chaplain
First of all, thanks for the wonderful support for your product. As a 30-yr wargamer, I say without reservation that WitP is the finest wargame ever produced. Just outstanding.
Thank you, the pats on the back are always good for a few more games. [;)]
I am a little troubled by the apparent decision int he 1.3 patch to go with a less realistic, more 'fun' approach to gunnery. I agree with and prefer your prior design decision - letting gunfire focus on a few targets as a means to enhance realism. In the future, let me plead with you to prefer realism to pragmatism in future patches. WitP - as you know - is a grognard product, and we love complexity/realism.
Give 1.3 a try once it's out and let us know what you think. If there is a consensus that we went too far, it can always be fine tuned a bit down the line. Our goal was not to end up with an unrealistic model, but rather to improve the realism of the daylight surface combat model.
Sometimes I feel like I'm writing the United States Foreign Policy speech for the President and every word has to be scrutinized before putting down on paper. You guys kill me. [;)]
"HEY! Can't you see its broke! Fix it! FIX IT NOW!"
Ok I'll fix it.
"Hey what the HeII are you doing changing that? It was never broke in the first place! Change it back. CHANGE IT BACK NOW!"
Don't worry we would never change the model so much as to make it unrealistic. However, as you can see from this thread, not everyone can agree on what the perfect model is so we tinker with the ones that draw the most fire.
Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.
Personally, I can't wait for the 1.3 patch. The new surface combat model will greatly improve the realism of daylight combat. Not to mention that it suits the War Plan Orange project very well. We may yet see a Jutland in the Pacific, no?
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
