Interested in opinions about a map experiment - Panama screenshot added

[Andrew Brown]

Panama screenshot:

[Ron Saueracker]

This is so ingenius...gotta love it.[8D]

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Yes, it will more than likely break the Allied AI.

As to using this map or not, when the mod began our rough outline (at least as I understood it) was to start by combining the best mods out there (Lemurs! Scenario, My OOB Graphic MOD, Subchaser and TheElf's plane art mods) into a large PBEM only mod. For this, more shipping and historically uncompleted ships would be added. While the mod may work vs the Japanese AI, its original intent was, and as I still understand it to be, PBEM. For AI play, we still have the stock scenarios, and the original mods of Lemurs and my scenarios which are basic light versions of this that are AI capable.

Geez Louise, not good news for me. I was really looking forward to using this and waiting patiently. I only play the Allied and only play against the AI Japanese. The above is a little mixed message to my cluttered mind. "While the mod may work vs the Japanese AI" well I appear to be OK, but would like a more definative answer. If I police myself as to activating the shipping will I beable to use the mod. Damn, I hope so. while I love Lemurs original mods, I really want the CHS that is being work on (with the Andrew Brown new map mod).

[eMonticello]

There's nothing wrong with having the supply sources in the Western US.

The only traffic that used the Canal were warships, troop convoys, and cargo ships/tankers transferring for duty in the other ocean. To conserve shipping, the US began loading cargo for trans-Atlantic destinations at the Atlantic ports and trans-Pacific destinations at the Pacific ports. Supplies and fuel were transported within the continental US by the rail system. As a matter of fact, the losses of shipping in the Caribbean in early 1942 forced the Army to supply the Canal Zone from LA instead of New Orleans.

So, I highly recommend not changing the source of the supplies unless the change is to draw everything from the "United States" base.

Wardlow, Chester. US Army in World War II, The Technical Services, The Transportation Corps: Responsibilities, Organization, and Operations. Washington: CMH - GPO, 1951.

ORIGINAL: byron13

Switching to the Canal, I can't be sure if the plan is to take the map only to the Canal in a short chute, or whether it is to go all the way through the Canal and to the east coast with a long chute. It wouldn't matter for reinforcements, since their arrival date would just be adjusted accordingly. What would be interesting to know is the extent to which supplies of various kinds and especially fuel and oil was shipped to California or Oz via the Canal. I'm betting (knowing less than nothing) that most refineries had access only to the Gulf or Atlantic coasts, so that a considerable amount may have been shipped via the Canal. Of course, there may have been some pipelines to the West coast or substantial use of tanker cars on trains. The point is that having units appear in Panama at the Canal is kind of a max nix issue; they can sit in Panama waiting for a ride just as easily as they can sit in California (though there may be a longer transiting distance). Supply is max nix since most will probably be produced or delivered to the West Coast, so the addition of the Canal places no more stress on the logistics system. Fuel and oil is the only thing that I can see would make a difference, i.e., long transit times for TKs trying to hump fuel and oil to the Pacific. Otherwise, what real difference does putting the Canal in have?

[Banquet]

It would be great if a version of this mod could be made for those of us that play against the AI. Keeping all the great graphic and oob changes but leaving out anything that might confuse the AI.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there are no AI changes.. which begs the question.. can the AI be modded?

[Platoonist]

I believe in order for there to be even a chance for the AI to be modded 2by3 would have to turn over the game code. Probably not likely in the foreseeable future.

Beautiful work on the CZ there Andrew. [8D]

[Andy Mac]

My only concern is that additional forces will be required to garrison aden for example will be a drain on any upgrades that arrive for British troops or equipment.

Given the level of supply that will accumulate at these bases I would be concerned that they would upgrade before actual line formations.

i.e. upgraded engineers, infantry, AT guns, etc.

As it is Aden you would also probably want to add at least one immobile Indian Infantry Division on a seperate ME Command say 12th Division or one of 4th 8th or 10th but assign it a high PP cost to convert. Plus 251st or 252nd Armoured Bde (with limited tanks) but again this means they will suck away replacements and more importantly upgrades from India Command.

I am not sure if this is a step to far.

Andy

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: byron13

Sounds like a good idea. Like others, I'm sure, I've got probably one-third or one-half of my AKs parked on the West Coast doing nothing. My few supply hubs are brimming with supplies, and I've got more AKs than I know what to do with. I am in favor of placing more stress on Allied shipping, but I don't think this will do it - at least for the Americans. Requiring the Brits to ship supply from Aden to India would take slack out of their system. For the Americans, it sounds like this would affect combat ships and APs more than AKs. Not sure where oil and fuel was produced back in the day, but if it was refined and shipped from Texas and the Gulf coast, the Panama Canal idea would tax the TKs; I've got just enough now to feel comfortable. Force me to ship from Texas and through the Canal, and I'll be feeling the pinch me thinks.

Since the Brits are so light on ship repair, you might consider giving Aden (or the invulnerable "England" base) substantial ship repair capabilities. This would allow the Brits to maintain ships and make light repairs in theater; an 80 Sys damaged BB could go to England for major work and get the ship back before 1950.

You might also consider how your idea would interface with the ship withdrawal routine. If required to withdraw a ship, the only one of which is in Aden or "England," can it be withdrawn from there? Changing the programming to that extent is inviting bugs. The alternative is to make sure that the player has enough time to get the ship back to India by the end of the month.

Great idea.

Actually most of the oil needed for the Pacific came from California, and the West coast
as shown was a major aircraft production area. What really arrived via the Panama Canal were the ships themselves, as most Naval shipbuilding in the US was on the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts.

But I especially like the idea of putting some decent repair yard capacity in the British
East Africa port (or whatever it ends up being called.) Given the resources from Alexandria to Durbin there certainly ought to be something better than what is available now.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My only concern is that additional forces will be required to garrison aden for example will be a drain on any upgrades that arrive for British troops or equipment.

Given the level of supply that will accumulate at these bases I would be concerned that they would upgrade before actual line formations.

i.e. upgraded engineers, infantry, AT guns, etc.

As it is Aden you would also probably want to add at least one immobile Indian Infantry Division on a seperate ME Command say 12th Division or one of 4th 8th or 10th but assign it a high PP cost to convert. Plus 251st or 252nd Armoured Bde (with limited tanks) but again this means they will suck away replacements and more importantly upgrades from India Command.

I am not sure if this is a step to far.

Andy

I would be very interested in any data for a garrison in Aden. The only data I have been able to find is from 1939: http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/017 ... _aden.html. I know there were substantial Indian formations in the Middle East but have no data on their dispositions. I am also curious about the disposition of the Indian Armoured units as I have seen several posts indicating the Scenario 15 data might need work. Help appreciated ...

[bradfordkay]

While I have been playing so far only as Allied vs AI, I intend to play the other side when I've had my fill. I have been interested in the CHM, but if it is unplayable against the AI I think that I might have to pass. Of course, I am using Andrew's present map, which may be unplayable against an allied AI, so we shall have to see. If Matrix does make use of Andrew's map in a patch, that question should be answered...