Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty

[jwilkerson]

I do not have the Layton book - but the guy who was doing the work down in the basement ... Rochefort ... I'd certainly agree with putting him on a pedestal ! I was comparing Turner and Gerow to the senior leaders not the doers. My point with the specific Turner letter from January 1941 predicting an attack on Pearl Harbor, in conjunction with USN knowledge of 3 exercises in which Pearl was [ surprise ] attacked by carriers formed a pattern of a possible surprise attack on Pearl Harbor ... that should have removed such a possibility for the realms of UFO sightings ( i.e. .impossible events ). Unfortunately, despite this attested pattern senior leaders DID view the possibility of attack in the category of a UFO sighting.

I'd be curious as to why you think Douggie and Marshall got off the hook ! Because it does seem like they got very different treatment from Stark, Kimmel and Short and at least Douggie may have be more guilty than all the others combined.

[Yamato hugger]

Doug got off because daddy was a Medal of Honor winner and he was effectively the "King" of the Phillipines (supposedly the locals loved him) I think is why he got off.

Marshall I believe was a good leader. He had a good staff. He appointed good sub-commanders. Easy to over-look 1 mistake.
Edit:
And I think it also goes to show that Kimmel and Short may not have been relieved because Pearl Harbor wasnt ready for a carrier attack as much as it wasnt doing much of anything. Recon being the key issue.

[DeepSix]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

I have to respectfully disagree here. There's a world of difference between simply saying "I didn't know" and a complete breakdown in the tactical intelligence-gathering process.

If there was a "breakdown" in the reporting, it still falls directly into Kimmels and Shorts lap. If the people in their staff didnt inform them, then WHY didnt they? When Patton took over 7 corps (I think) in Africa he kicked some ass and inattention to detail and laziness went right out the window. The general he replaced wasnt replaced just because he wasnt a good commander, his STAFF was replaced just as quickly. I dare say he was relived because of the lack of performance of his staff as any other reason. And that is a necessity.

So you would eject the team manager because the third baseman socked the line ump?[8|]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

[When Patton took over 7 corps (I think) in Africa he kicked some ass and inattention to detail and laziness went right out the window. The general he replaced wasnt replaced just because he wasnt a good commander, his STAFF was replaced just as quickly. I dare say he was relived because of the lack of performance of his staff as any other reason.

If you are going to use "facts" for comparison you could at least try to be right. Patton
succeeded to command of the II Corps in Tunisia. And very little of the staff war replaced. The man he replaced WAS an incompetant jack-ass (yet he was promoted
to an Army command back in the States). And most of Patton's work had already been
done by Rommel at Kasserine, when he showed the Americal Army that it could be beaten
like a dog by the other side. Patton's job was to remind them of the good side of the experiance, (9th Division's Arty stopping the Kraut's cold, and the men who crawled up the side of Kasserine and kept the Germans from widening their breach). Like it's society as a whole, the American Army needed a boot in the pants to realize that the job they were there to do required real fighting. It's an experiance that American troops have
had to go through in several wars.

[Tankerace]

Methinks he was watching the movie Patton for the info [:D]

But you are right, it does seem that in almost every war we (the United States) have ever fought, we get our asses handed to us first, and then come back with a vengance.

FYI, after II Corps in Tunisia, Patton took command of the 7th ARMY, then was replaced their by Patch and took over the 3rd Army for Operation Cobra.

[bradfordkay]

" But you are right, it does seem that in almost every war we (the United States) have ever fought, we get our asses handed to us first, and then come back with a vengance. "


It's part of our British heritage...

[Tankerace]

Ouch..... that ones gotta hurt.

[Yamato hugger]

If you are going to use "facts" for comparison you could at least try to be right

What part of "I think" didnt you understand? Its been a while and I am SURE people knew what I ment. You obviously did.

[Tankerace]

Actually, he is referring to when you said the entire staff was fired.... of which it wasn't.

[Yamato hugger]

So you would eject the team manager because the third baseman socked the line ump

Nope, but I might if the 3rd base coach did. Seriously, a Generals or Admirals staff isnt assigned to him, it is PICKED by him. If the turdball cant put good people in the right positions, then who's fault is that? Would you re-elect a president that has incompetents on his cabinet? Same thing. A Generals or Admirals staff is his advisors, his confidants, and in a lot of cases act on his behalf without his knowledge (and dont even go there, if your son charges $5000 on your creditcard and you didnt know about it, who pays?). And seriously, if you dont understand the concept, then there is no explaining it to you I guess. /shrug

[Yamato hugger]

Actually, he is referring to when you said the entire staff was fired.... of which it wasn't.

I said his staff was replaced. Stop being arguementative for the sake of arguing. Name the staff officers that stayed and their positions before and after Patton arrived please.

[Tankerace]

1) I was not the one who made the claim, and 2) can you name all the ones who were replaced?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I do not have the Layton book - but the guy who was doing the work down in the basement ... Rochefort ... I'd certainly agree with putting him on a pedestal ! I was comparing Turner and Gerow to the senior leaders not the doers. My point with the specific Turner letter from January 1941 predicting an attack on Pearl Harbor, in conjunction with USN knowledge of 3 exercises in which Pearl was [ surprise ] attacked by carriers formed a pattern of a possible surprise attack on Pearl Harbor ... that should have removed such a possibility for the realms of UFO sightings ( i.e. .impossible events ). Unfortunately, despite this attested pattern senior leaders DID view the possibility of attack in the category of a UFO sighting.

I'd be curious as to why you think Douggie and Marshall got off the hook ! Because it does seem like they got very different treatment from Stark, Kimmel and Short and at least Douggie may have be more guilty than all the others combined.

Layton worked closely with Rochefort. His book is excellent. He didn't write anything for years because it was classified. He wrote once they lifted the TOP SECRET status of the MAGIC decrypts and made it public.

I think Dougie and Marshall got off the hook because they had money and/or political power (money does not QUITE equal political power, but sometimes one can get you the other).

[rtrapasso]

I do not have the Layton book - but the guy who was doing the work down in the basement ... Rochefort ... I'd certainly agree with putting him on a pedestal !

Instead he got the shaft. Relieved from his command and put in charge of a stateside garbage scow or somesuch because some Washington insiders wanted and got the medals he deserved.

[DeepSix]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

And seriously, if you dont understand the concept, then there is no explaining it to you I guess. /shrug

You're right about that. Save your strength.

[Tankerace]

Nice one Deep.

[anarchyintheuk]

Marshall and Mac both had congressional friends and enemies. Neither had the kind of rep they would earn later in war, certainly not enough to keep them from getting canned in Dec 41 if Roosevelt had wished. They got off the hook because you can't fire your entire military command staff in the first month of a war or else people start thinking "who put these guys in charge?" and look a level higher. You can only fire x number of people for the results of one day's *error* and Mac was decidedly in second place in terms of losses compared to PH.

Who'd have thunk it, cluster**** is not censored.

[bradfordkay]

" Instead he got the shaft. Relieved from his command and put in charge of a stateside garbage scow or somesuch because some Washington insiders wanted and got the medals he deserved. "

Yep, apparently the guys in DC who had gotten it all wrong were jealous of his success, so they conspired to have him removed. The guy who replaced him on Nimitz' staff was the guy in DC who swore that Rochefort was wrong about Midway being "AF", Jack Redmond. Since Ernest King had swallowed Redmond's story and was thus embarrassed by Rochefort's coup (in getting it right), he had him removed from the intelligence business completely. Rochefort was shipped to San Francisco to command a dry dock. He should have received the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Maybe we should start a campaign to have him issued one now...

[jwilkerson]

Yes one of my secret life time projects is to find out really why King fired Rochefort after he effectively "won the war" ... it almost seems like he got canned because he was consistently right where as the DC intel guys that King liked were consistenly wrong ... through most of May ... King continued to inisist that Nimitz' assessments were incorrect ... and when more evidence kept popping up he continued to insist. Even after the famous "water" ploy "PROVED" the Hawaii team was correct the Washington team continued to insist that Hawaii and the West Coast were probably the real targets ...

And then after all is said and done, Rochefort gets canned. At least he has finally gotten some recognition. He was onoe of the few folks so far inducted into some kind of NSA hall of fame. But there isn't enough hollering in his write up about how badly he got the shaft and from whom.

Dougie getting off in the P.I. and then later bashing people like Eichelberger, for working to make him succesful ... and Ernie King firing Rochefort for being right and "winning the war" ... those are two very sore points in my book ...

[jwilkerson]

Here is Rochefort's "NSA Hall of Honor" page ... but nada regarding his removal ...

http://www.nsa.gov/honor/honor00025.cfm


And another link describing his getting the axe.


Rochefort's firing