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Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon, the player controls one of the crowned potentates of Europe in the Napoleonic Era, wielding authority over his nation's military strategy, economic development, diplomatic relations, and social organization. It is a very thorough simulation of the entire Napoleonic Era - spanning from 1799 to 1820, from the dockyards in Lisbon to the frozen wastes of Holy Mother Russia.

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donkuchi19
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by donkuchi19 »

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle
Before anybody starts posting about the # of buttons on the military advisor's chest: Please be advised that they're all based on period of costume, and in most cases derived from a painting or etching dating to that era.

circulate there is nothing to watch!

I realy love the way of the discution here.

I love also to be able to see an Autrian Grognard.

By the way the Austrian didn't have: Guard, Lancers and horse Cavalry but I supose it's something without any interest


The Austrians did have Lancers. When they annexed Galicia, they created some Lancer units from the Poles living there. I actually have created a unit of them for my miniature Austrian Army.
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donkuchi19
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by donkuchi19 »

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu
ORIGINAL: pixelpusher

Just finished making the updated Austrian white uniforms. Made some of their pants sort of a - blue / gray. But it is very faint, almost white. (Some austrian uniforms were blue white coats w/ blue pants.) Thus some of the units will be all white, and some will be white w/ white-blue/gray pants.

Coats are very white. I'm somewhat concerned that they'll be legible on the detailed battle screen, but I suppose it will be OK since they will be the only units with this much brightness.

Image


Ok, since you brought this up pixelpusher.

Disclaimer : I will use the NATO symbols exclusively and I again say that I bring up the following so you can be prepared when the hordes of Napoleonic enthusiasts come this way. I have nothing against the game designers and I TRULY wish them only the best, but I am forced to say that this is embarrassing.

White (in general) is better for the Austrian infantry. Thank you.

I am shocked at what I see. It leaves me wondering if this is really supposed to be a Napoleonic game. This is NOT a complaint about "too many buttons" or anything else that could be called inconsequential.

It is rather an educated observation about something glaringly obvious.

I am sorry, but not one uniform shown above even looks like it belongs to the Austrian Army of the Napoleonic Era. The closest is the Lancer. Some specifics are the red epaulettes and the red football shoulder pads that the kneeling infantryman and the artillerist at the bottom has. (The Austrian Army didn't have them at all.) If anyone disputes this, I would like to ask them to tell us all what Austrian regiment or branch of service these illustrations represent. (Please.) The figures are way, way too muscular and they look like they're wearing spandex.

I am certain that the artist has made many wonderful contributions and deserves great praise for all of them, but it really looks like he should go back to "the drawing board" and redo this aspect game. The cannons, muskets and horses look right.

There will be people who will come after me that will point these things out and they most likely will do it in a less respectful way. With so much attention to Napoleonic detail, they will wonder why this aspect of the game has gotten the short shrift. They will wonder if other aspects will get the same treatment and I fear that they probably not buy the game. You see, I want them all to buy it. I want this game to be VERY successful -period.


1. Will these images be moddable?

2. Will the NATO symbols be available at the Strategic Level?

If, the answer to either of these two questions is "yes," then please feel free to do nothing. If the answer is "no" to both, then I respectfully submit that there needs to be some more work done.

We can all agree that what is seen on the screen is very important. I understand how important it is to have the game released and not end up in endless modifications. I want it released too.

We've been waiting far too long for something like this game. Please take that extra step (wherever it needs to be) and cross into the end zone for the score. You're too close to stop now.



I am not one to beat up developers on thier choices, but being one who loves using miniatures to recreate Napoleonic battles, uniforms are very important to me. I guess it comes down to your target audience. Die hard Napoleonics (like me) will likely be turned off by the uniform errors. Casual strategy gamers might not care. From following many of the boards on Matrix's site, I think you will find more Grognards than casual gamers. This may be a mistake to overlook these errors. I for one would look for Austrian gunners with their brown uniforms, Lancers with their green uniforms, Cuirassiers with their Black Curaiss on the front, Austrian Infantry in all white except for facings and such, Austrian officers with a gold or yellow sash, Hungarian Infantry with white tops and blue pants with yellow lace, infantry wearing either the helmet or the shako, and guards with their fur caps with the peaks. I was (and may still be) looking forward to this game but it might end up being a sticking point on whether I purchase it or not.

These are just my two cents and you can agree or not, but take them for what they are worth.

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sol_invictus
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by sol_invictus »

I think that all things being equal, we all would love historicly accurate uniforms. I am normally very picky about historical accuracy and certainly consider myself an old grognard; but the current models are very adequate for me. I always wanted to get into miniatures but it can be a hard hobby to break into, so I stuck with board and computer gaming. I'm guessing that most people who are uniform fanatics are indeed from the miniatures crowd. I am much more interested in the historical accuracy of the gameplay and the strength of the Diplomatic, Tactical, and Strategic AI. If these things aren't adequate, then we really needn't worry about uniforms. It seems that they are making mighty efforts to be as accurate as possible.
"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero
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Le Tondu
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Le Tondu »

ORIGINAL: donkuchi


.................................I was (and may still be) looking forward to this game but it might end up being a sticking point on whether I purchase it or not.

These are just my two cents and you can agree or not, but take them for what they are worth.

Thanks


Your uniform suggestions are right on target donkuchi. I truly wish that they would take similar standards to heart for all the Napoleonic armies involved.

There are other issues that "can" be chatted about. Like, I want to see the Bavarian flag for Bavaria and not some green version of the French flag. So-called "Minor Nations" deserve to have their flags showing too. It seems that there should be some give and take for the initial release, eh?

I too was very disappointed and felt that my ultimate decision to buy might match yours, until I heard that I might not have to look at them -at all. With moddability and/ or the use of NATO symbols as a possibility, it was easy for me to let it go.

From what I can see, they're using the same models for 3D and just changing the colors of the uniforms here and there so as to facilitate ease of programming and memory usage. Seemed like a defensible idea to me. I want this game now, even with imperfections --that could be fixed later on.

I've been Napoleonic gaming for 31+ years. Does that make me a Grognard too? [;)] I started with "Napoleon at Waterloo" when I started a subscription to "Strategy and Tactics" in 1974. Or was it 1973?.............
[:)]
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pixelpusher
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by pixelpusher »

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

Like, I want to see the Bavarian flag for Bavaria and not some green version of the French flag. So-called "Minor Nations" deserve to have their flags showing too.

The non-nation provinces each have thier own flags. Bavaria in particular has a white-blue flag with a bavarian coat of arms. Several provinces which start out as part of a nation can break away and have their own flag. (eg Ireland, various parts of poland, etc.) There are also minor nations (poland) that have other special treatment in scenarios.

In addition, each province has armies represented by a corps flag, just like the large nations. So if Ireland rises up and raises a corps, it will be represented by an Irish corps flag. Again, I'm not 100% sure about this, but there was talk about making the flags mod-able.

If you like flags, CoG should not disappoint. There are many flags.









I too was very disappointed and felt that my ultimate decision to buy might match yours, until I heard that I might not have to look at them -at all. With moddability and/ or the use of NATO symbols as a possibility, it was easy for me to let it go.

From what I can see, they're using the same models for 3D and just changing the colors of the uniforms here and there so as to facilitate ease of programming and memory usage. Seemed like a defensible idea to me. I want this game now, even with imperfections --that could be fixed later on.

I've been Napoleonic gaming for 31+ years. Does that make me a Grognard too? [;)] I started with "Napoleon at Waterloo" when I started a subscription to "Strategy and Tactics" in 1974. Or was it 1973?.............
[:)]
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Le Tondu
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Le Tondu »

I noticed during the chat last night with ericbabe that at the strategic level, there won't be NATO symbols. [:(] [:(]

I am still praying for divine intervention regarding the moddability issue.
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sol_invictus
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by sol_invictus »

Damn, I forgot about the chat. DOH!
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Le Tondu
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Le Tondu »

Believe it or not Arinvald, I looked for you. I figured that you must've been busy.

(Actually, I could only stay for a few minutes.)
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steveh11Matrix
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by steveh11Matrix »

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

I noticed during the chat last night with ericbabe that at the strategic level, there won't be NATO symbols. [:(] [:(]
Really? How sad...and odd. I don't really understand that one, but will reserve judgement pending further news.
ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

I am still praying for divine intervention regarding the moddability issue.
Hmmm, yes, although the graphical side of modding is not for me. IIRC the non-graphical stuff is in text files, therefore moddable, but not 'friendly'.

Steve.
"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci
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sol_invictus
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by sol_invictus »

Le Tondu, I downloaded TS: Caesar yesterday and I was getting aquainted with the game and forgot all about the chat. I guess no NATO symbols on the strategic map won't be to bad.
"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero
swatter555
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by swatter555 »

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

swatter555,

Um. As far as I can tell, no one has said anything about uniforms for at least two weeks. I believe the discussion has moved on to FOW.

Yes, I can tell.

I hope they allow users to replace the sprites if they wish, this is the only way some people will be happy at this stage of the game. Someone puts a few weeks into a mod and everyone is happy.
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Le Tondu
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Le Tondu »

Yes indeed swatter555. That is, if they can be modded.
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Mr. Z
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Mr. Z »

I am sorry, but not one uniform shown above even looks like it belongs to the Austrian Army of the Napoleonic Era. The closest is the Lancer. Some specifics are the red epaulettes and the red football shoulder pads that the kneeling infantryman and the artillerist at the bottom has. (The Austrian Army didn't have them at all.) If anyone disputes this, I would like to ask them to tell us all what Austrian regiment or branch of service these illustrations represent. (Please.)
I would like to come to pixelpusher's defense and say that yes, while the red trim on some of the units may not represent them accurately, there *were* Austrian units with red trim, including epaulettes. Also, white became more and more often the standard uniform color for jackets and pants as time went on, for many kinds of units. For example, many of the the Austrian Chevauxleger, as well as the Dragoons, after 1801. Also, Infantry and Chevauxleger regiments often had red facings, of course, if that is any help, as did Dragoons (Dragoon cuffs were also often red). I have also seen images of Austrian cavalry with red crests (we have already dealt with criticisms that helmets are not an exact match--again, we are economizing for several reasons, already mentioned above, and furthermore, as everyone knows, helmets often underwent several evolutions during the period--at any rate, again, we're trying to use a consistent model across nations for the benefit of playability.) And, I have seen images of Austrian infantry units--non-Hungarian fusiliers, I believe--with red epaulettes. Naturally, standardization was rare, if not altogether non-existent.
The figures are way, way too muscular and they look like they're wearing spandex.
Speaking for myself, I just can't see anything wrong with them--trousers did tend to be fairly close-fitting, and I can't really detect much musculature, but, as Jason said, we do appreciate the input.

Of course, we will be discussing all decisions right up to the last minute, but we do feel that, for example, moving to nearly all-white (or white/extremely light blue) uniforms for Austrian troops was, on the whole, a good decision. I can see how one might be puzzled by a single set of colors for each type of Austrian unit (or any other nation, for that matter), but again, we're making efficient and eminiently playable decisions, as described above.

Of course, that doesn't mean we don't welcome constructive criticism such as yours. We will do our best with all helpful comments we receive.
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Le Tondu
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Le Tondu »

Mr. Z said : "And, I have seen images of Austrian infantry units--non-Hungarian fusiliers, I believe--with red epaulettes. Naturally, standardization was rare, if not altogether non-existent."


Please sir, which Austrian unit wore red epaulettes? I am not talking about red facings or red piping. (Juust red epaulettes like the French Grenadier style that is depicted in the illustrations supplied by the honorable pixelpusher.) I cannot think of any.

I'd like to know. I am not trying to pick a fight. [:)]
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Mr. Z
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Mr. Z »

Please sir, which Austrian unit wore red epaulettes? I am not talking about red facings or red piping. (Juust red epaulettes like the French Grenadier style that is depicted in the illustrations supplied by the honorable pixelpusher.) I cannot think of any.

I'd like to know. I am not trying to pick a fight. [:)]
It's true that this is just a drawing by hand, but here is an image for you:

http://napnuts.tripod.com/napwars/frameaustriainf.htm

You can see the red epaulettes on the right-hand German Line Infantry (Fusilier) figure when you scroll down the page.

Surprising, no? I find that Napoleonic uniforming is a very complicated enterprise!
wayne19563
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RE: Screens

Post by wayne19563 »

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
ORIGINAL: Cush

Any new screens to share?

Sorry about the delay. I'll get something up soon.


Eric

Anything ? Anything ? Please ...[&o]
Thanks
Wayne
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Le Tondu
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Le Tondu »

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z
Please sir, which Austrian unit wore red epaulettes? I am not talking about red facings or red piping. (Juust red epaulettes like the French Grenadier style that is depicted in the illustrations supplied by the honorable pixelpusher.) I cannot think of any.

I'd like to know. I am not trying to pick a fight. [:)]
It's true that this is just a drawing by hand, but here is an image for you:

http://napnuts.tripod.com/napwars/frameaustriainf.htm

You can see the red epaulettes on the right-hand German Line Infantry (Fusilier) figure when you scroll down the page.

Surprising, no? I find that Napoleonic uniforming is a very complicated enterprise!

Mr. Z,

Yes indeed Sir, your example fits more than a single Austrian regiment given the different shades of red that were used. They however are certainly not epaulettes. They are red shoulder straps and just about every uniform of the day had shoulder straps of one color or another. Even greatcoats had shoulder straps.

The type of epaulettes that are used in the illustation supplied by pixelpusher are the same types that French Grenadiers wore ---like in this photograph

http://www.brigade-napoleon.org/infantr ... engrd.html

I respectfully submit that Austrian soldiers simply didn't wear those epaulettes (excluding some officers.) They wore red shoulder straps amongst other colors depending upon the regiment. As far as I can remember, Prussian, Russian and English soldiers didn't either.

I know that this might seem like there is a short distance between shoulder straps and epaulettes, but to those of us who have studied this Era for several decades, the distance is far more obvious than that. It is a distinction that will be picked up by others (in the future) who most likely will talk about it in less than a friendly manner.

Rick

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Mr. Z
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Mr. Z »

Yes indeed Sir, your example fits more than a single Austrian regiment given the different shades of red that were used. They however are certainly not epaulettes. They are red shoulder straps and just about every uniform of the day had shoulder straps of one color or another. Even greatcoats had shoulder straps.
Well, yes, you're right, they do look more like shoulder straps. The details on our unit shoulders could be looked at as a kind of stand-in for both shoulder straps and epaulettes. We do hope that others are as friendly in any criticism as you have been, but we appreciate the heads-up in case they are not!
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Mr. Z
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by Mr. Z »

As a side note for the NATO chit fans, I just wanted to point out that although they're not available on the strategic map, unit figures usually only appear after production, before they've been attached to an army. Once they've been attached to an army, they're represented by a nation flag, so you usually won't be seeing a map full of unit figures at the strategic level. There are a few irregular exceptions to this--POW units, guerillas, etc. Also, multiple unattached units in a single province are represented by only one figure--whichever unit happens to be at the top of the list of units in that province (the "top of the stack" in game terms.)
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RE: Uniforms??????

Post by ericbabe »

Yes, I can tell.

I hope they allow users to replace the sprites if they wish, this is the only way some people will be happy at this stage of the game. Someone puts a few weeks into a mod and everyone is happy.

The graphics are simply pcx files arranged in a grid. If anyone wants to make modded versions of the units we'd be pleased to provide layout information. As long as everyone promises that everyone will be happy...


Eric
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