Ok, so how DO you stop Heavy Bombers?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Sombra

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

In a straight up battle, what you expect the results of a fight between MkIII panzers (short 50) and Pershings? That is where a "3 level difference" is basically at. And its not just tech but "tactics and doctrine to use it" too.

If you let an enemy get a three point advatage, you are gonna be in the hurt locker...

Paul you are right that many things form part of the battle. As you said tech advantage 3 is like a Pershings. Aehmmm, how long did it take to develop Pershings in the weapons race of the cold war after 2nd. world war?[;)]

I am sure Paul meant Pershing tanks (M-26 I think?) not more famous Pershing missiles of Cold War [:D]

M-26 Pershing went into service in last months (if not weeks) of war in Europe, was heavily armored and armed with 90mm gun, and is usually considered best heavy tank US fielded during war (in as much as last couple of weeks can be considered "during war"). Some historians argue Pershing never actually saw action. Kind of, US response to Soviet JS series, and German King Tigers though in my opinion it was slightly inferior to both.

I'd say tech advantage of 3 is more like JS-2 vs. PzII... no contest.

Oleg

[Grotius]

I agree that a tech advantage of 3 is huge, and a tech advantage of 2 very significant. But the player knows when his opponent gains a tech advantage of just 1, so there's no reason to let it get worse than that. In my PBEM game, every time one of us makes a tech move, the other responds. It makes for a very fun dynamic.

I'm open to suggestions that the system might need some tweaking, but so far I think it works well. If I were the devs, I'd be very cautious about changing it until we players have had a lot more time to play with it.

[ratprince]

[:)]

Paul;

I had a huge paper written up today on the "analysis of economics in WAW." But I think you summed it up better here! [;)]

I feel pretty confident that this game can be won with very little "epic" battles. The sublteties of the economic system and strategic supply and repair create nuances that allow you to destroy a nation via destroying their economic might. For example; China may have HUGE population reserves, but can me made impotent by simply whacking the few factories they have. In one game I have simply destroyed every single chines unit and factory without invading (airpower) and simply left the mainlaind then. They will never be a threat again (if I dont invade) as it will take the rest of the game to even build one unit.

The point is that economics is not a "minor" component, rather, it is at least half of the game. Rather than complaining about the "B-52s" of the WA, sink every allied transport carrying resources so the "Oakridge" science facility cant function....

Later!

(love the game!)

Mike

[Paul Vebber]

Given your other work Mike - I hope you still post it [&o]

[pyrhic]

good points.

However, i still think that lower tech units should be able to hit and damage/destroy higher tech ones. IRL, its often quoted that it took 5 shermans to take down 1 tiger, but they did take it down - even with substandard technology.

There was not one vehicle created irl that was impervious....heh, well, except maybe those KV-1s at the beginning of the russian campaign...but even they were vulnerable to airpower.

[Paul Vebber]

Intro Shermans v tigers would be 2 tech levels - with 2-1 odds they can put a serious hurt on Tigers. Long 76 Shermans are like a 1 tehc difference and tey most CERTAINLY could put a hurting on Tigers.

3 tech level difference is like T-26s vs Tigers. in that case how many tigers do you REALLY think you are going to lose?

But if you have numbers, you can hold them off - and a 2-1 advantage of 1-1 FT-17s tanks can KILL a whole schmear of 20-20 M-1s if they are surrounded...

[sveint]

In my PBeM games research seems to work very well. If I or my opponent don't watch each other's research or "forget" to research a necessary technology, it will hurt.

To me this post falls into the category of Axis-wannabewroldconquerors yelling...

Partisans are too much, I cannot conquer the world!
Russian tanks are too much, I cannot conquer the world!
Allied heavy bombersare too much, I cannot conquer the world!

Like Pail Vebber showed in his example, there is always a counter. You just have to find it.

[Warfare1]

There are a lot of good points to consider. Clearly, a lot more playing needs to be done before changing anything.

However, the original question still stands though:

Can fighters take down bombers if their tech is equal?

[pyrhic]

if that's the case, then i don't see a problem. I'll have to test it out, but it seems at 2 tech levels down, you'd need more than double odds...

another way of looking at it is if you get what you pay for, ie, if the x pp spent on research justifies the X # of units you could have 'bought' with those pps....that'd be an interesting study..

-- -- --

but yeah, warfare you're right, the question was really WA HB vs fighters and whether that 1 armor point is justified. I think the thing that bugs me more about it is that that armor point can't be researched by the axis and that it's automatically conferred upon the allies....so if as axis, you realize you have a fundamental problem in lack of bomber durability, there's nothing you can do. Wheras if you realize your subs need to be longer range you can study that. DOesn't seem particularly right..

[Scott_WAR]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Intro Shermans v tigers would be 2 tech levels - with 2-1 odds they can put a serious hurt on Tigers. Long 76 Shermans are like a 1 tehc difference and tey most CERTAINLY could put a hurting on Tigers.

3 tech level difference is like T-26s vs Tigers. in that case how many tigers do you REALLY think you are going to lose?

But if you have numbers, you can hold them off - and a 2-1 advantage of 1-1 FT-17s tanks can KILL a whole schmear of 20-20 M-1s if they are surrounded...

You are wrong.I saw a stack of 45 units, with 15 level 8 evasion/8 attack tanks attack a soviet stack of 23 units, with 12 level 9 evasin/9 attack tanks, and the rest 8 evasion/8 attack arti, and lose nearly every unit, while damaging around 3. So no, overwhelming numbers DOES NOT make up for tech.



Its not REALLY about the effectiveness of tech alone. Its about the fact that the WA can do approximatley TWICE as much research as the axis, and STILL keep churning out supplies and units. It doesnt take long before the axis can not even scratch the majority of the allies units. So even if the axis player does as much research as possible, play flawless, and maintains a numbers advantage unit wise, it wont make one bit of difference, becasue the allies units can kill his, and he cant hurt theirs.


Hopefully, Matrix will test it. Test what we are telling you, and fix it when you find out we are right.

[sveint]

Its about the fact that the WA can do approximatley TWICE as much research as the axis,

Sound historical to me.

The game is NOT balanced. The sides are NOT equal.

Sorry to shoot down you dreams of world conquest.

[Scott_WAR]

Well, a GAME that is not balanced is doomed to failure. This is not the REAL war, this is a game, that is suppposed to be fun and EVEN for both sides.

If the game isnt balanced, then it fails as a game.


But hey, ignore the problem, but dont complain when you cant find anyone willing to play as the axis in a multiplayer game.

[Paul Vebber]

THE game has to be balanced based on the victory conditions for the game, not on giving equal chance to "conquer the world".

Currently, the game appears to be pretty well balanced based on the victory conditions.

I've got three games going and can handle a fourth, I'll be glad to give the Axis a shot against you.

[Scott_WAR]

Actually Paul, I wouldnt be a good choice to play against, with me as allies. I have only played axis.


I would suggest you play against aletoledo, let him have allies, and watch how tech makes the game hopeless for the axis.


He is the one who used the strategy against me. Twice. The first game I realized tooo late to even try to keep up. The second I tried to keep up, but it was hopeless.


Im not talking about conquering the world. At a certain point, it gets to the point where the axis cant even attack with 3 to 1 odds, because they STILL get slaughtered. At that ime you cant even defend yourself.

[Paul Vebber]

I've played the Allies a good bit more too, but one would think if it were as easy as you make it out, it wouldn't matter who I played. I'll be glad to give it a try against whomever.

[Scott_WAR]

Supply would kill me, because of my inexperience with it as the allies. Especially as WA.


Aletoledo used the strategy against me. After a lot of thought, I see no defense for it at all. You seem to disagree, so please, play aletoledo, and let us know what you find out. I think you are going to understand a little better once it is used against you, and see just how hopeless the situation is for the axis.


edit- I emailed aletoledo, and hopefully he will come and take you up on the game. He will be a lot better to test this with, since it IS his strategy, and he can assuredly do it much better than I will be able to.

[Paul Vebber]

Like I said, I'll be glad to try to defeat anybody's "killer strategy". We want to find them if they exist, and if they truely are "unstopable" then I'm sure 2by3 will lokk at addressing the underlying issues.

[Scott_WAR]

Thank you very much Paul. Thats all I , and I am sure anyone who feels the same way, asks.


Again, this is why you guys are one of the best. Communication. A real desire to make the game the best it can be, and not just make as much money as you can. [&o]

[aletoledo]

I would love to start up a game with you Paul Vebber, but I'm actually in agreement with you, so I don't think it would accomplish much in this threads arguement. as a matter of fact I'll play anyones allies and challenge them to tech up against me.

To me this post falls into the category of Axis-wannabewroldconquerors yelling...

Partisans are too much, I cannot conquer the world!
Russian tanks are too much, I cannot conquer the world!
Allied heavy bombersare too much, I cannot conquer the world!

I agree this sums up this thread. I do concede that unrestricted tech by the allies makes a tough game for the axis, but its not all the games fault.

I think to reproduce what this thread is really about: make a game, agree that the axis can't attack the russians until 1943 and see what happens. there is no way the germans will survive until 1945, let alone 1946.

maybe another way to put this thread is: strategic mistakes are devastating to the axis, but the allies can blunder about yet still win. I think it should be stated somewhere in the manual that germans are the most difficult country to win with.

[Scott_WAR]

You really think attacking Russia and the Us early is the answer? I think you are going to be surprised at just what you unleash when they are allowed in the war early. Germany is NOT prepared for a 2 war front. It may appear that way while the USSR is frozen, but as soon as you unfreeze them, you are going to be amazed at the amount of units that appear on your front within 1 or 2 turns.

I have played both ways. I have attacked Russia early, and it worked a couple of times, but then I played against someone with a little experience, and was shown very quickly how much of a mistake that was.

You attack Russia early, you get overan by unit numbers, becasue Germany is not ready to fight on both fornts. You wait and the tech advantage gets too large to overcome. Either way you are in trouble.

But by all means, go ahead and learn for yourself, as I did. Thats why I want you two to play. If Paul waits, he will see how tech is just too much for the axis no matter what they do.
If he doesnt wait, you will see how much easier it is for the allies to win when the axis let them have the extra units and resources early.


-Edit- There should be no doubt in anyones mind that the axis is harder to win with, but there should not be strategies the alllies can use that make it impossible for them to win.

I guess I need to start playing allies, to get famaliar with them, then anyone who doesnt think its true, I can show them firsthand.