jap pilot pool

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 8151
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The get pilot button added nothing. Only before when you drew aircraft you also drew pilots. So you never saw the "no fly" You could not draw aircraft and not get a pilot unless you already had more pilots then aircraft. (Before pilots would only be drawn by "ready" aircraft )and often you had to set groups to fly in order to get pilots. So the problem before get pilot was worse then it is now because I still can't understand why you would draw aircraft and not also draw pilots. I have never in 11 PBEM games had a group not fly because it was short a pilot.

Apollo no the group is just resting at 0 percent training while it waits to draw the replacement AC (so it can recover morale and rest) Once it has rested and recovered it will move back to combat. It does not require training as all pilots in the group are above what they can train to.
You will notice some of the CV groups are training. That is because there are a few sub 55exp pilots in the groups. (You can't avoid it) The Junyo and Hiyo for example arrive with understrength groups so to get them operational I had to add from my replacements
However a few of the pilots were only 52,53,54 not 55 so the groups are training. It is difficult now to add pilots in the 70's to my CV groups. (I have around 12 70+ fighter pilots left in training groups reserved for CV groups) There are no more Kate or Val pilots above 55 but I do have quite a number of 55's trained for all CV groups.
I have many sub 50 groups training. (many are now in the high 40's) (when I draw a pilot he comes in between 19-28 depending on how many I draw and how long since last draw.
I like to save at least 1 trained pilot for each group I assign to training so I hold groups till I have 1 trained pilot in the pool. (I only hold 1 group back per month)
If I have 3 trained pilots I tell 3 groups to take ac and then I draw 1 pilot to each before drawing the rest. This way they all get a 70+ pilot (good pilots help train the groups)

I think we always had the "no fly" problem just now people are blaming it on the "get pilot" button. Before you had to set a group to fly 100 percent to draw pilots. Now if you tell a group to draw AC just draw them the next turn.


IF YOU DON"T WANT UNTRAINED PILOTS DON"T DRAW AC. Instead transfer trained pilots to the group they bring their own AC.

Actually - unfortunately - I agree with this 100% - in other words ignore the "get pilot" button.

But then ... why the hecque did we spend scarce programmer time adding it - when there were significantly more important things to do ??? !!!

( no answer possible )



WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, The get pilot button works perfectly for me. It seems you are forgeting before the button was added if you drew aircraft as soon as they repaired and ready outnumbered pilots you drew a pilot if there were no trained pilots in pool you drew an untrained pilot.
What you now seem to worry about was automatic before. Now you can avoid getting untrained pilots. Don't add aircraft to groups by replacement button unless you have trained pilots in pool or excess trained pilots in group. You will never get untrained.

Now you can actully build trained groups.
Place a group of the type aircraft you want. (In 1.50+ this should be easy because you pick upgrades. In Bradygame we are confined to old paths)
Now accept replacement aircraft.
Everyturn check pool if trained pilots add the number if not don't add any.
IJAAF gets 20 per month so it would take a little less then 2 months to form a fully trained 36 aircraft Sentai.
IJN gets 10 per month so it takes a little less then 3 months to form a fully trained 27 aircraft Daitai. You can rush form groups by disbanding trained Chutai ( 9 or 12 aircraft) into group before you accept the aircaft replacements. Currently I form a fully trained Daitai every 1.5 months (between 9-12 of the pilots are 55's but the remaining 18-15 are 70+'s)

Here is bottom of Landbased groups notice I am not shy about 100 percent training.
You can train a group from 20 to 55 in around 90 days. (if they get 1 point every 3 days they are trained in 75 days but I stand them down in bad weather or if they get low morale or tired)

Really it is not hard to maintain your groups. You just have to do it every turn and plan ahead (like everything else in WITP good planning is better then no planning)
I think I spend more time on this per turn then I do anything else. (I finish a turn in 15 minutes or less)

Image
Attachments
bottom.jpg
bottom.jpg (55.15 KiB) Viewed 208 times
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Sharkosaurus rex
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:25 am
Location: under the waves
Contact:

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Sharkosaurus rex »

Not everyone plays the Japs. Some of the Allied pilot pools allow for their air units to have accept replacement planes on all the time and they can just add pilots each turn.
Is Sharkosaurus rex the biggest fish in the sea?
Why don't you come in for a swim?
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, I think the Allied (USA any way) are too low. They should just add pilots as they need them. USA pilot training was never an issue and it never effected operations. (There were always replacement pilots trained to the then acceptable levels) The USA would really need to lose a vast number before it was an issue. (The number the USA trained boggles the mind. (Check out how many aircraft were lost in training. I mean combat models)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Mike Wood
Posts: 1424
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Oakland, California
Contact:

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Mike Wood »

Hello...

Well, actually there is an answer. Added the button for testing bug was working on.

Left it in for players who might want to take (for example) a Zero group of 27 planes and 12 pilots and train them up. In normal training, it might take a goodly while to fill out. Some Japanese players were complaining that float planes units were stealing all the good pilots. Even if training or only on 30% CAP, you manually steal the good pilots. No requirement to use button, however.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Actually - unfortunately - I agree with this 100% - in other words ignore the "get pilot" button.

But then ... why the hecque did we spend scarce programmer time adding it - when there were significantly more important things to do ??? !!!

( no answer possible )
User avatar
pauk
Posts: 4156
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

You will notice some of the CV groups are training. That is because there are a few sub 55exp pilots in the groups. (You can't avoid it) The Junyo and Hiyo for example arrive with understrength groups so to get them operational I had to add from my replacements
However a few of the pilots were only 52,53,54 not 55 so the groups are training. It is difficult now to add pilots in the 70's to my CV groups. (I have around 12 70+ fighter pilots left in training groups reserved for CV groups) There are no more Kate or Val pilots above 55 but I do have quite a number of 55's trained for all CV groups.


IF YOU DON"T WANT UNTRAINED PILOTS DON"T DRAW AC. Instead transfer trained pilots to the group they bring their own AC.

greetings,

Actually, there is a way to aviod untrained pilots in the carrier groups. Your second paragraph is the half-answer to the problem. So, lets say our group have 20 pilots (max strenght is 24).
You need 4 trained pilots, right? What i'm doing is that i using previous trained groups (mostly they are chutais with 9 pilots) and transfer then to empty base (without air support). Then i'm waiting until chutai droped to 4 ready pilots (rest are damaged), and only then transfer them to the understrengh air group.

Then, move BF to "heal" damaged partial unit (5 pilots) and you have another replacement sub-group (usualy there is not just one carrier group need to reinforce). I tend to disband both sub groups to the combat groups because i want this chutai back in 90 days.

yes, i know it is kind of brain-vashing
[:)]
Image
User avatar
doktorblood
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:40 am

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by doktorblood »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I think the Allied (USA any way) are too low. They should just add pilots as they need them. USA pilot training was never an issue and it never effected operations. (There were always replacement pilots trained to the then acceptable levels) The USA would really need to lose a vast number before it was an issue. (The number the USA trained boggles the mind. (Check out how many aircraft were lost in training. I mean combat models)

This is not really true. Both USN and USAAF were short of trained aircrew throuhout 1942 and into 1943. USN was just as strapped for carrier pilots as the Japs were in 1942.
Image
User avatar
pauk
Posts: 4156
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by pauk »

just because in the war US had no problems with training pilots, doesn't mean that it should be represent in the game. What about player who constantly sending all out air attacks and dont mind about loses, knowing he will get new trained pilots? Hm, just wonder how Allied leaders in the war planing their strategy ("we expect to lose 150 pilots in the action", "don't worry about it my young colonel, i will send you twice as many pilots you lose"....)

IMO, Allied pool is more than enough (in one of my PBEM i destroyed more than 150 B-17's in the game. He used them day by day.... When i asked my opponent does he have problems with the trained pilots he starts laughing evily[:'(]), and sent me pilot pool picture. Every reasonable Allied player (who don't try to achive air superiority in opening months) have more then enough pilots.... IIRC, just the US have initial pool with 1200 trained replacement pilots and 320 tranied pilots monthly. Sorry, I dont get it, how can you deplete such enormous (speaking only in game terms) pool?





Image
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes using the training method.
Here is a group that in the combat phase of this turn lost 27 aircraft in A2A.
Because the action was over my airfield I ended up with more pilots then AC.
So I dumped some training groups in so now it has excess pilots (2) and will draw replacement ac this turn. All the pilots are trained. (to at least 50)
If I had simply requested more ac I would have had to draw untrained pilots. As is the group will be ready for combat within a week of losing 3/4 of it's aircraft in 1 day.

Image

Mogami when you say dumping them into a group is this disbanding them into the group or withdrawing them into the group??? Also doesnt it take away the planes and pilots for 2 or 3 months???
Image
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, I disband (group gets both ac and pilots. Withdraw only sends planes) The groups I disband are training groups they only exist for this. I don't care about the 90 day wait before getting the groups back into training.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

I have not experienced this. The only similar complaint I have heard was that 27 planes/20 pilots used 27 planes worth of supply, instead of 20. I fixed that. If 27 planes/20 pilots is causing no flights at all, it is a new bug to me. If that is the case, please report and send save to Mr. Frag.

Thanks...

Michael Wood
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
... like if you have 27 planes and 20 pilots ... nobody flys ... that is the problem.

Mike, I was actually wrong in my explanation. I left out a very important part in parentheses. You do not need a save. It is a very repeatable process:

1. Load up South Pacific Scenario as Japan.

2. Turn 1 Allow Replacements for the airgroups so the groups fill up with planes next turn...

3. Turn 2 TURN OFF REPLACEMENTS and (USE THE GET PILOT BUTTON TO GET A FEW PILOTS BUT NOT MORE THAN THE PLANES IN THE GROUP)

4. Set missions for airgroups.

5. Turn 3 watch your airgroups with more planes than pilots sit on there butts...
Image
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why on earth would you draw aircraft and then not also draw pilots?
If you know before you draw the aircraft you are not going to draw pilots as well why draw the aircraft?[X(]

Japanese CV groups 1/30/43 (every ac including the reserves have pilots)

Image

Ok here is the point that I missed getting through. Im not trying to draw planes without pilots. Im trying to draw planes without BAD pilots and then GET PILOT the good pilots. So what Im doing is allowing replacements and drawing planes. Then turning off replacements and GET PILOTS good pilots from the pool. But you only have so many of these so you cannot fill up every group to the number of planes. So by turning off replacements you have GET PILOT the good pilots in and now the BAD pilots are locked out. But I now have more planes than pilots because I cannot control how many planes come into the group and I only have so many good pilots. This is where you get more planes than pilots and where you get groups not flying. See my example to repeat the process above...
Image
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I disband (group gets both ac and pilots. Withdraw only sends planes) The groups I disband are training groups they only exist for this. I don't care about the 90 day wait before getting the groups back into training.

But you cannot disband carrier units... [&:]
Image
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, I never disband CV groups. I disband into them.
Tanaka you cannot keep your units full of planes and trained pilots using the pool.
You have 3 choices.
1. Draw pilots. (no matter what)
2. Don't draw pilots (when group gets reduced to certain point you send entire group back to safe base draw pilots and train before returning to combat
3. Disband trained pilots into groups.

If you use the system you never draw pilots except into groups set to train.
You only draw aircraft into combat groups that have pilots (max pilots but below max number of aircraft)

The only way the IJN pool can keep up with groups is if you can keep loss below 10 per month.

You avoid all the problems posted in this thread.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I never disband CV groups. I disband into them.
Tanaka you cannot keep your units full of planes and trained pilots using the pool.
You have 3 choices.
1. Draw pilots. (no matter what)
2. Don't draw pilots (when group gets reduced to certain point you send entire group back to safe base draw pilots and train before returning to combat
3. Disband trained pilots into groups.

If you use the system you never draw pilots except into groups set to train.
You only draw aircraft into combat groups that have pilots (max pilots but below max number of aircraft)

The only way the IJN pool can keep up with groups is if you can keep loss below 10 per month.

You avoid all the problems posted in this thread.

So you disband non-CV groups into them???

I understand what you are saying and I will use these methods.

But it would be nice if I could pick which groups I want my trained pilots from the pool to go into and not worry if I dont fill it up all the way. (Thus the group not flying)

In other words I do hope they can fix this...
Image
User avatar
doktorblood
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:40 am

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by doktorblood »

I like the "get pilot" button. Like Tanaka, I too would like a "get airplane" button as well. I don't know how difficult it would be to add but it would help in managing your airgroups by being able to build groups to less than their full strength. I don't really understand why anyone would object.
Image
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by mogami »

Hi, I don't object to adding a button. I just explain how to operate without it.
DO groups really not fly? (I know CV groups need pilots for aircraft to fly but I have not seen this with LBA.

If the program is working correctly
A group that starts with max AC and max pilots will never have fewer pilots then ac because you can't lose a pilot without losing ac but you can lose ac without losing a pilot.
The only way a group can have more AC then pilots is if when group below max size in AC you draw AC and then don't also draw pilots. But since this is exactly what produces the problem it makes no sense to do so)
Because

The disband method will always work. It will result in excess pilots even if group is below max size in AC so that you may then draw ac without having to draw untrained pilot.

Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't object to adding a button. I just explain how to operate without it.
DO groups really not fly? (I know CV groups need pilots for aircraft to fly but I have not seen this with LBA.

If the program is working correctly
A group that starts with max AC and max pilots will never have fewer pilots then ac because you can't lose a pilot without losing ac but you can lose ac without losing a pilot.
The only way a group can have more AC then pilots is if when group below max size in AC you draw AC and then don't also draw pilots. But since this is exactly what produces the problem it makes no sense to do so)
Because

The disband method will always work. It will result in excess pilots even if group is below max size in AC so that you may then draw ac without having to draw untrained pilot.
No this is not what causes the problem. What causes the problem is what you said:

"The only way a group can have more AC then pilots is if when group below max size in AC you draw AC and then don't also draw pilots."

AND

Add some pilots by "Get pilot" a few pilots less than the planes...
Image
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 8151
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

I have not experienced this. The only similar complaint I have heard was that 27 planes/20 pilots used 27 planes worth of supply, instead of 20. I fixed that. If 27 planes/20 pilots is causing no flights at all, it is a new bug to me. If that is the case, please report and send save to Mr. Frag.

Thanks...

Michael Wood
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
... like if you have 27 planes and 20 pilots ... nobody flys ... that is the problem.

Ok I have posted bug report and sent save to Mr. Frag.
WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
User avatar
Tanaka
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:42 am
Location: USA

RE: jap pilot pool

Post by Tanaka »

Hey guys here is the response I got from Mr. Frag. It doesnt sound good...[:(]


"I tried to get this fixed with CV aircraft in 1.6. Mike broke something with
turning off pilots as the code was designed originally to pull a pilot at
the time the mission goes should a plane not have one. Having it not able to
pull the pilot is causing a mission scrub condition. I am not sure if
anything can actually be done about this as it is working as designed. This
is one of those classic problems ... When you change a design after the
fact, it has unexpected consequences."

Ray
Image
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”