BoB wish list

[otisabuser2]

the programmers already give the GB, over strength Squadrons at start, and a over strength stockpile of planes, along with a overstock pilot base

what more do you want ?

you really got to take some heavy losses to get down below 16 planes in each squadron

Erm.... You are pulling my leg, I beleive. Even in your list 5 units are already at or under this level.

We are talking plane strengths here, not pilot strengths. If a pilot bails out, wounded or not the plane is lost. If it remains on the ground and destroyed in a straffe, it is lost. 22 planes down to 16 is a loss of only 6 planes!

The point of the game is to reduce the strength of the RAF by legitimate means. Not to fix the readiness levels of Fighter Command to below historical levels to cludge a LW win.

reagrds Otisabuser

[Hard Sarge]

And again
what is your point, what do you want to change ?

you say the squadrons should have 16 planes, most have more then 16 planes

you say once they take losses, they stop at 16 planes when they rebuild, well that is still 16 planes

you have a stockpile of 150 planes before the battle even starts

what do you think needs to be done ?

you got more planes, more pilots and more stockpile then the GB did in the battle, what needs to be fixed to make the game correct

[otisabuser2]

original: HS

And again
what is your point, what do you want to change ?

I stated this at the start

original: OB

Another issue. The plane strength of RAF units is fixed in game to 15/16 planes. This should actually be approx 22/24 aircraft.

original: HS

you say the squadrons should have 16 planes, most have more then 16 planes

you say once they take losses, they stop at 16 planes when they rebuild, well that is still 16 planes

......no 22. They should have 22 planes, but they only rebuild to 16. That is mostly wrong.

you got more planes, more pilots and more stockpile then the GB did in the battle, what needs to be fixed to make the game correct

I'm confused by this statement. How many MORE extra planes and pilots do you think we have, vs the historical levels at game start ? I think me and you are reading different books. [:)]

[Prussia]

[/quote]

So, for example, if a Spitfire I unit has 5 available aircraft and 11 others
divided between the various other states (i.e., refueling, in transit, etc.) this unit will
not receive any additional aircraft until its total number is reduced below 16.

I think a clarification is in order here- given the above posit, of course no one is going to receive any new aircraft, for you are in the middle of the combat phase. Fueling, transit, and the other states implied here happen only in the combat phase, not the admin phases. Replacements are added/received during the admin phases only. During combat, pilots slash planes will progress through the states, till all undamaged aircraft are once again available for action. So I don't know who wrote this, I imagine their intent was to be helpful, for they are 100% correct in what they are stating for the first part of the statement, but it's 100% wrong, and a combination of several different things in the second part of the statement. Basically, half of that statement deals with readiness for combat, and the other half to replacements, and they essentially have nothing to do with each other. I'll look into the BOB replacement system, and let you know what is going on.

I hope that helps,

Jean-Claude

[Hard Sarge]

I'm confused by this statement. How many MORE extra planes and pilots do you think we have, vs the historical levels at game start ? I think me and you are reading different books.

from what I see, at the start of this game (game starts may be different)

I have 730 ready planes
I have 476 unready planes
plus I have 152 replacement planes in the stockpile

that is 1358 planes

none of the books I have read stated anywhere near that number

if I had the editor we got for BTR, I could give you a total of pilots, but in BoB we have to open each squadron, so only looked at a few, but most of the ones I looked at had 23 to 26 pilots

so basicly, you have double strength squadrons (12 planes) and double strength Pilot rosters, not counting the stockpile

[Prussia]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I have 730 ready planes
I have 476 unready planes
plus I have 152 replacement planes in the stockpile

that is 1358 planes

none of the books I have read stated anywhere near that number

I can fix that.

Jean-Claude

[otisabuser2]

original: HS

you got more planes, more pilots and more stockpile then the GB did in the battle, what needs to be fixed to make the game correct

original: HS

but in BoB we have to open each squadron, so only looked at a few,

Now I've lost the point. You state that the total number of RAF pilots is MORE than the historical level, but you have no idea how many are actually in the game ? Curious.[;)]

original:HS

I have 730 ready planes
I have 476 unready planes
plus I have 152 replacement planes in the stockpile

It may help us if we can determine which of these three figures you think is incorrect. 700 odd ready planes sounds about right to me.

[Hard Sarge]

It may help us if we can determine which of these three figures you think is incorrect. 700 odd ready planes sounds about right to me.

yes, at 12 planes a Squadron, 733 looks good (a little strong, but not here to split hairs)

(thinking 12 ready, 4 in reserve)

at 16 planes a Squadron, we looking at 1040 ready planes

(thinking 16 ready, 3-4 in reserve)

740 was the most ready the GB had during the battle

for the pilots, after takeing the time to open 30 of the squadrons to see how many pilots they had, I kind of figured I had got what I wanted, as I doubted that the other 35 squadrons would only have 8

also, what we want, is to get the pilot Data base set up, so we get the right numbers into the squadrons, 310 has shown 37 pilots and also has shown 31, while 312 is light

which just in case, if you remember my other posts, I also want the GE pilots fixed, some JG's have 48 pilots and some have 20

[otisabuser2]

It may help us both here if we define the terms we are using.

Ready aircraft in the game is not a total of how many servicable planes there are. It's a total of how many servicable planes there are with a pilot assigned to fly in it. The max number ( bug permitting ) that fly is 12 plane units. So a Squadron will never add more than 12 ready to the total, regardless of how many servicable planes it actually has.

original:HS

740 was the most ready the GB had during the battle

These I beleive are FC figures, which are calculated in much the same way. This is the totals of the ready planes each Squadron says it can put up for the morning. This is also generally a maximum of 12 ( official Sqn size though clearly in some documented cases units actually did better than their quotes ). So again this is not a total of servicable planes, though these figures are often labelled as such.

Whatever figures we look at, we also need to bear in mind that there are 7-8 non-operational RAF Squadrons given to us at game start. Three of them ( 306,307 and 312 ) are entirely computer generated named pilots. Some of the others are incorrect because although many Poles say went through 303 Sqn at some stage, they often actually flew and fought with other FC units.

I posted some better lists over on the JCL BTR forum. I was working on a better list for the whole of FC. I was also pushing for better LW lists ( at least for the JG and ZG ).

original:HS

for the pilots, after takeing the time to open 30 of the squadrons to see how many pilots they had, I kind of figured I had got what I wanted, as I doubted that the other 35 squadrons would only have 8

You state that there are too many pilots in RAF at the game start. How many are you expecting ? Dip sampling a few units is not helpful because the database adds computer gen guys to various Sqns, but works differently each time.

So yes, though some units may have around 30 pilots, look also in these ones:

312 Sqn has 13 to 16 comp gen pilots

306 Sqn has 12 to 13 cg pilots

232 Sqn has 8 real life pilots

247 Sqn has 6 real life pilots.

......the last two were actually flights but named Sqns.

To lay my cards on the table.

I am expecting there to be around 1400 pilots at game start.

I am expecting a full strength unit ( many in game should not be ) to have 22 planes.

152 planes in the stockpile is actually LOWER than on 13th August in real life. Figures for week ending 10th August 1940 for aircraft held in Aircraft Storage Units is 160 Hurricanes PLUS 129 Spitfires. This is week at near the peak for reserve totals for FC ( ie after the losses of the Battle of France are made good, but before the BoB actually gets rough ).

If you have different figures, it may help to post them, so we can discuss the differences.

regards Otisabuser

[DBS]

And to really confuse things...

In June/July 1940, Fighter Command had a healthy surplus of Hurricanes and Spitfires becoming available. It really wanted to form additional squadrons. But, except for the Canadians, Poles and Czechs who were forming at that stage, there were not enough additional trained pilots coming on stream to form these squadrons. So all of the Hurricane squadrons, and something like half a dozen of the Spitfire squadrons (need to look up the precise figure) were given an extra four aircraft each, but without aircrew. The idea was to increase the in-unit resilience after damage, as well as giving rides to those aircrew within the squadron normally assumed to be on leave or under training, so that they could fly in extremis.

One difficult issue we need to think about are the RAF Maintenance Units - unglamorous but as critical to the battle as anyone. The RAF were paranoid about these specialised airfields getting bombed, because that was where so many of the spare aircraft were sitting ready for overnight distribution to operational squadrons as necessary. Making them (and the aircraft pools) targetable would however probably be a gameplay killer, unless dispersion rules limited the number that the Luftwaffe could take out in a single raid.

David